Frustrated with my own slow play in 8 ball

[justadub]

Thanks justadub.

There are always extreme cases. If one player is slower than everyone else, interfering with league and tournament schedules, and causing tangible negative impacts to groups of people, then yes, this needs to be dealt with.

But OP didn't say any of this. It seems to be you bringing up the extreme case to justify the rule.

What OP said was that there are a number of players he views on the slow side of the spectrum and that he is concerned because he doesn't want to be one of them. This is what I was addressing.

If you look at the amount of hatred towards slow play, the vast, vast majority of it isn't due to scheduling. Most of it is just people impatient in their chair. This is what I was addressing as well.

So I totally concede that tournaments and leagues must run on schedule, and promoters and operators should do whatever is needed to keep things moving. I hope you'd also concede that if someone is playing slow and not hurting anyone else then hostility towards that person shouldn't be permitted.

Thanks!

Perhaps I was reading too much into the OP's original posts, but it feels to me that from his description, he's taking upwards of a minute per shot, if not more. (I am making an assumption here, clearly.) From how he's analyzing potential patterns, etc. I've seen it. That is what I've been basing my response on. I beg forgiveness if he's shooting around 30 seconds per average shot and considering that slow. Averaging 30 seconds a shot in league is OK, and if people give you crap about it, that's on them. Hostility isn't justified, in any event.

I think it's a good sign that he's concerned about the other slow players in his league, and not wanting to drag things out like them. I'm not advocating anyone just jumping up there and blasting away. I can't do it, as I said previously, I'm somewhat methodical, as well. But if you watched one of the matches involving an SL2 on my team, you'd be ready to pull your hair out. There needs to be balance, and every team is gonna have an SL2 or SL3 that is gonna have a long match.

The OP is SL6, which to me seems like he ought to be able to see the patterns much of the time. At least the beginnings of them, and at our league level, very few of us are gonna be able to plot out the entire table, much less execute that, regularly. I'm only SL5 and I usually see the best choice and where I should be going next after that. I'm afraid our OP is trying to play like you, Tin Man, and not ready to get to that point yet. Starting the whole process over, if the original plan goes awry. Yes, we all need to be prepared to reset the plan when we get out of line. We should all be striving to be better, and to "get out" if possible. But we can't slow things down as we over-analyze the potential runs.

Now, 8-ball is a different animal than 9-ball, and not everyone acclimates to one game as easily as the other. I know several better players than I that I'd rather play 8-ball with, cuz they will certainly out-shoot me in 9-ball, but don't manage the strategy of 8-ball as well. This possibly contributes to the whole scenario.

I'm admittedly projecting, and assuming things in this discussion. newcuer, I apologize if I'm out of line. And again, I'm rooting for you to find a comfortable solution. (Me too!)

 

[justadub]

25sec per shot in 9-ball is ridiculously slow.

Not in APA, league play.

 

[DeeDeeCues]

Not in APA, league play.

I didn't say it didn't happen, but it shouldn't.

 

[justadub]

I didn't say it didn't happen, but it shouldn't.

If we could get people to average 25 sec per shot, even in 9-ball, the nights would go much quicker. Nature of the beast, with beginner pool like APA.

 

[Tin Man]

Perhaps I was reading too much into the OP's original posts, but it feels to me that from his description, he's taking upwards of a minute per shot, if not more. (I am making an assumption here, clearly.) From how he's analyzing potential patterns, etc. I've seen it. That is what I've been basing my response on. I beg forgiveness if he's shooting around 30 seconds per average shot and considering that slow. Averaging 30 seconds a shot in league is OK, and if people give you crap about it, that's on them. Hostility isn't justified, in any event.

I think it's a good sign that he's concerned about the other slow players in his league, and not wanting to drag things out like them. I'm not advocating anyone just jumping up there and blasting away. I can't do it, as I said previously, I'm somewhat methodical, as well. But if you watched one of the matches involving an SL2 on my team, you'd be ready to pull your hair out. There needs to be balance, and every team is gonna have an SL2 or SL3 that is gonna have a long match.

The OP is SL6, which to me seems like he ought to be able to see the patterns much of the time. At least the beginnings of them, and at our league level, very few of us are gonna be able to plot out the entire table, much less execute that, regularly. I'm only SL5 and I usually see the best choice and where I should be going next after that. I'm afraid our OP is trying to play like you, Tin Man, and not ready to get to that point yet. Starting the whole process over, if the original plan goes awry. Yes, we all need to be prepared to reset the plan when we get out of line. We should all be striving to be better, and to "get out" if possible. But we can't slow things down as we over-analyze the potential runs.

Now, 8-ball is a different animal than 9-ball, and not everyone acclimates to one game as easily as the other. I know several better players than I that I'd rather play 8-ball with, cuz they will certainly out-shoot me in 9-ball, but don't manage the strategy of 8-ball as well. This possibly contributes to the whole scenario.

I'm admittedly projecting, and assuming things in this discussion. newcuer, I apologize if I'm out of line. And again, I'm rooting for you to find a comfortable solution. (Me too!)

All makes sense to me. Yeah, a minute a shot is slow. It’s one thing if it’s a funny layout on a hill-hill for thousands. Maybe it takes time. But rack after rack, shot after shot, that is brutal. Especially if players are missing, tying up balls, measuring out safeties, and they are long inning games.

So I agree that a desirable pace should be 30 seconds a shot with the occasional extension.

But to beat the horse to death, I don’t think the way to encourage players towards that goal is with mistreatment which a lot of people feel is justified.

Ok, training pool so gotta get back to work. Thanks!

 

[Black-Balled]

Pretty much deciding what shot to take. I tend to try go through all possible options in my head. Either other people don't do this or they do it but much faster.

These are not wholly unique situations that demand fresh considerations every time.

Recognize where your skills can be applied, don't consider how they can be applied

Perhaps set up a specific layout and do it a bunch of times...it shall be rote.

 

[nataddrho]

I know I am slow player and I at times ask teammates if I as slow other players I am playing against who are driving me nuts with their slow play. And unfortunately the answer is yes (sometimes it's hard to objectively tell one's own pace of play).

Ugh. I don't want to be like them. Not sure what to do. If I play faster, I play worse (especially strategy wise and pattern wise).

Any advice?

The DigiBall and DigiCue both have a shot clock.

 

[DeeDeeCues]

Pretty much deciding what shot to take. I tend to try go through all possible options in my head. Either other people don't do this or they do it but much faster.

All possible options? If that were the case, you would still be contemplating the very first shot you ever took.

So, you obviously don't attempt to go through all possible options, which means you have already eliminated most of the billions of possible options. You attempt to go through probable options. You may be slower than many players at doing this, but more likely, other players have eliminated many of the probable options that you consider. These players likely only look at plausible options.

You shouldn't need to re-evaluate the table on every shot. This is the basis of thinking X balls ahead.

How long have you been playing? I expect you need to work on pattern recognition and trusting your instincts to eliminate possibilities and look only for probabilities.

I'd guess that over 80% of the shots in a normal game have almost nothing to think about. You probably only have one pocket that is the best option. The next object ball dictates the speed and spin, hampered only by obstacles (other balls).

I'd suggest that you learn the rules of snooker and watch Ronnie O'Sullivan matches on YT. Watch how he builds breaks.

 

[trob]

Rack up the balls like 9 ball. 8 in the middle, 4 stripes, 4 solids. Break and run out with ball in hand like 8 ball ghost. Take as much time as you need per shot but try to select the best one or right one for YOUR game each time. Or play it like a regular game where you play safety too. Take all the time you want.
When this is too easy go back to full rack and repeat. Over and over until the patterns reveal themselves faster and easier. You will see the right shot sooner over time. Keep score to add pressure. Hope this helps.

Dude I have never thought about playing the 8 ball ghost like that!! I may adjust it to like 6 strips and 2 solids but great idea

 

[trob]

Me too.

OP you said you are an APA 6. By APA rules you should be shooting within 45sec. I think the rules are most shots should be closer to 20sec.

There is one 650 I know that plays slow as all hell. Everyone knows it. He has sped up a bit as of late as the tournament director on Fridays has addressed this with him. It really hasn’t hurt his game. Speed up slowly over time if you need to.

And remember. In higher level APA matches the opposing team can and will put slow players on a time clock. If I saw a player, especially a higher level player, playing super slow I would ask the LO to inform them. And if that didn’t work would request a time clock.
Once the match gets to a certain time it turns to sudden death and some teams will try to poke around to get to sudden death as a strategy.

So my only advice is to remember-you have to shoot within 45seconds whether you like it or not. And to start from there.

Ive seen people pull out a stop clock in tri cups for sure. But then a match has to be over in a certain amount of time or it goes to sudden death match to finish it so people get touchy.

 

[newcuer]

The tip on keeping my head in the game while my opponent is shooting I will try to apply as I really don't do this right now.

I for the most part, zone out. I think this may be do to the nature of games on a 7 ft table where one shot by an opponent can rearrange everything so much I guess I just don't start planning until my turn.

 

[Badpenguin]

Are you attempting to think through every single shot combination? If I shoot the 4, then I can shoot the 1, then the 3, then the 2, then the 6, then 7, then 5, then 8? Or maybe I can shoot the 3, then the 2, then the 4, then the....?

Maybe write down the thought process that you are going through and post it here?

 

[Oikawa]

Speaking about myself as a relatively slow player, the reason I take some time to think in 9-ball on many shots is to weight the different intricate options in terms of speed/spin/routes/rails, often within the scope of the next 2-3 shots. The main 1-4 ideas that are worth considering are often obvious almost instantly, but what might take 5-15 seconds of conscious thinking is weighting which exact path, with which spin and speed, will give the best outcome for the next shot on average. Visualizing lines and zones, considering how different spins/speeds affect the error margins, judging what could go wrong in various approaches e.g. how likely am I to land good or bad from a certain ball bump, what % of a certain line is blocked behind another ball, etc.

The less traffic, the faster this process is, but even if there's only 3-4 balls on the table, spending even an extra 3-5 seconds weighting all the different reasonable options helps a lot to minimize the need for precise speed control.

Here's a good example. It's obvious you're going to pot the 8 into the lower left corner, but you have a lot of options in terms of spin and speed. Not even going and looking at the 8 and 9 from closer, and just going with the first instinct from behind the CB might not be the best option, since the result will be extremely sensitive to the exact arrangement of the balls, which can be hard to judge from afar. Then, you have to decide which of the many available options is most likely to give a good result on average. I think 10-25 seconds is a reasonable, and useful time to spend thinking on shots like this. Over 1 minute is almost always overkill, not only in terms of slowing the game down, but if your thinking process takes over a minute, you probably are thinking about things that you shouldn't be thinking about. There are exceptions as always though.

 

[couldnthinkof01]

The tip on keeping my head in the game while my opponent is shooting I will try to apply as I really don't do this right now.

I for the most part, zone out. I think this may be do to the nature of games on a 7 ft table where one shot by an opponent can rearrange everything so much I guess I just don't start planning until my turn.

I try to watch the speed of the table rather than where the balls are or what my opponent is doing. Try to soak in the speed of the table.

Don't wear yourself out in the chair. Zoning out or just relaxing breathing is good. You need your energy for when it's your turn.

 

[Badpenguin]

Speaking about myself as a relatively slow player, the reason I take some time to think in 9-ball on many shots is to weight the different intricate options in terms of speed/spin/routes/rails, often within the scope of the next 2-3 shots. The main 1-4 ideas that are worth considering are often obvious almost instantly, but what might take 5-15 seconds of conscious thinking is weighting which exact path, with which spin and speed, will give the best outcome for the next shot on average. Visualizing lines and zones, considering how different spins/speeds affect the error margins, judging what could go wrong in various approaches e.g. how likely am I to land good or bad from a certain ball bump, what % of a certain line is blocked behind another ball, etc.

The less traffic, the faster this process is, but even if there's only 3-4 balls on the table, spending even an extra 3-5 seconds weighting all the different reasonable options helps a lot to minimize the need for precise speed control.

View attachment 752055

Here's a good example. It's obvious you're going to pot the 8 into the lower left corner, but you have a lot of options in terms of spin and speed. Not even going and looking at the 8 and 9 from closer, and just going with the first instinct from behind the CB might not be the best option, since the result will be extremely sensitive to the exact arrangement of the balls, which can be hard to judge from afar. Then, you have to decide which of the many available options is most likely to give a good result on average. I think 10-25 seconds is a reasonable, and useful time to spend thinking on shots like this. Over 1 minute is almost always overkill, not only in terms of slowing the game down, but if your thinking process takes over a minute, you probably are thinking about things that you shouldn't be thinking about. There are exceptions as always though.

I only see one option. Stun off the 8 and bump the 9 towards the bottom right corner.

 

[Willowbrook Wolfy]

I only see one option. Stun off the 8 and bump the 9 towards the bottom right corner.

You sure? lol. Im just gonna follow it. And leave it(cb) up table a bit

Sounds more like OP has an issue hitting balls soft. Or working in tight areas. When dealing with a cluster play your first ball to give a few options on the next shot. It sounds counterproductive for Newcuers problem but sounds more like he wants to just shoot one ball after. It’s 8ball not 9ball. Leaving the cb in an area rather than a spot where there are 3 possible shots after might be better and requires much less thinking. Now there are only 3 balls to think about instead of 4. Hard to figure out at 3? Do the same thing again. Now there are 2 balls.

 

[rexus31]

I know I am slow player and I at times ask teammates if I as slow other players I am playing against who are driving me nuts with their slow play. And unfortunately the answer is yes (sometimes it's hard to objectively tell one's own pace of play).

Ugh. I don't want to be like them. Not sure what to do. If I play faster, I play worse (especially strategy wise and pattern wise).

Any advice?

You can map out an 8B rack fairly quickly planning from the 8B backwards. For example, what pocket does the 8B go? What is the key ball and how do I get shape on it from the ball before the key ball? What ball do I use to get shape on the key ball and how do I get shape on it, etc., etc., etc.

Depending on your ability, you may fumble the plan. but at least you have a plan that should cut down on your time between shots if executed.

 

[Kjackxon]

At a slow pace. Most importantly, where the shot I take I am 100% committed to. That's when I play my best. Unfortunately, for me, that is at a slow pace. This is particularly true for eight ball and it is not just limited to pattern play but also safety shots and strategic shots (I play on a 7 foot diamond). I try to play a very strategic game based on what I read from Givens and Capelle (starter shots, knowing when to give up on a run, setting up break out shots, etc.)

When I try to rush it up...then I take shots where I am not 100% committed to. I often botch these shots or shoot a shot that leads to nowhere.

You need to spend some time and walk the table. It appears like you’re not comfortable or confident in the process. Once you learn how to play better at pace (don’t think long) the change will come for better or worse.
Put your work in but don’t attempt risky shots - play to get back on the table.

 

[skip100]

What's the worst that can happen? You miss a pool shot. Life will go on. Stop worrying and hit the damn ball.

 

[DeeDeeCues]

What's the worst that can happen? You miss a pool shot. Life will go on. Stop worrying and hit the damn ball.

A missed pool shot killed my mother!