Grip Hand too loose?

[kasparovII]

You received some excellent examples of trying to explain the importance of and then how to ensure your grip hand should remain light in order to mamimize your action on the ball.....so. I won't add to them
But my expierence was that it was difficult to Not to tighten up a.bit during the stroke.
Because using.a very light grip my hand alwys felt like it would slip during impact against the linen wrap. So once I went to a wrapless cue and it has been much easier to maintain the proper pressure. The finish of the wood gives me that extra bit of traction I need. This may be more psychological than anything, but, for me it works. I.will never have a cue made with an Irish linen wrap again
The Arnot Q custom I ordered will have a beautifully figured piece of birds eye maple in the wrap area
. The other benefit is that a well made wrapleas cue looks great
In my opinion.

 

[ShootingArts]

somewhat depends on the stick

I have found some sticks like to be held tight, some like to be held very loosely. I've shot very well with a death grip on the cue, I've shot well with the cue floating in my hand.

The real reason this thread caught my eye is that I considered starting a thread about my own issue with grip yesterday. After a few days of heavy and unusual manual labor I woke up sore and very tight. However I had been too busy to make it to the pool hall for awhile and had a real itch to go hit some balls.

With the shoulder hurting and arm tight and sore I shot like dirt. I was also feeling a full circle grip all the way around the inside of my thumb, web of my hand, and forefinger, not real tight but different. I finally took the hint and loosened my grip to a ridiculous level, literally letting the cue lay in my hand. The balls that had been finding their way into the pockets using all of the rail available most of the time if they fell at all started thumping in with authority and the cue ball came alive. I shot about thirty minutes like that and decided to end the day on a high note, I was still tired and sore, never did really loosen up.

Any grip can work and work well as long as it is consistent. However, a very light grip minimizes the amount we use other muscles in our arms. As has been already noted by others, these other muscles are what usually steer our strokes and do us wrong. The muscles on the inside of my arms are far more developed than those on the outside, typical of most people who do heavy work with their hands. This is a potential problem all by itself, when they are very tight and sore . . . In the old days three or four beers helped smooth my stroke after a long day climbing or bending wrenches at work, can't do that now!

Hu

 

[JoeW]

I think about it this way. The back hand is a pointing device which directs the cue tip at and thru the cue ball. I can direct the cue from the rear of the swing and use inertia to strike the cue ball as intended. This is advocated by many instructors. This would be a loose grip. On the other hand, I can use my hand to specifically direct the cue stick to and through the striking of the cue ball. This would be a firmer grip. After trying it both ways I find that I have better control of what the cue ball does if I have positive control of the stick thru the execution.

Much is made of the short amount of time the cue is in contact with the ball. I do not think this is the primary problem. The problem, for me, is to strike the cue ball in such a way that I am in complete control of the cue ball’s movement along a particular path. This requires a firmer grip at and after contact than what some people advocate.

Obviously there is a trade off. A death grip is also a loss of control. In my experience a cradle does not provide sufficient positive control over the outcome. I think that it is something you have to play with until you find the right amount of control for you.

I found my “best” grip by setting up a consistent system of shot making which started with different cuts and then proceeded to the same cuts with different types of spin. Then I varied my grip for the series of shots and kept track (with paper and pencil) of which way was better for me.

One of the things I learned through experience (though it is advocated by many instructors) was the importance of a shorter bridge length for draw and the importance of being on center for length of table draw shots. But then that is why I love this game it gets so complicated and it is difficult to keep one thing constant until you learn what is and is not of use to you.

For me a loose wrist is needed for extreme draw. This also requires a looser (but not a cradle) grip. However, for consistent regular shot making a locked wrist and a firmer grip is “best.”

I think that we all have slightly different fine motor control and that there is no one size fits all when it comes to the grip. Different grips are of use for different types of shots. In the end I seek positive control of the cue ball.

In line with Hu's thinking, my stick weighs in at about 20.5 oz and is heavier than many other players use. None-the-less, I have this need for positive control of the cue's direction and speed at and thru contact.

 

[ShootingArts]

I agree

I think about it this way. The back hand is a pointing device which directs the cue tip at and thru the cue ball. I can direct the cue from the rear of the swing and use inertia to strike the cue ball as intended. This is advocated by many instructors. This would be a loose grip. On the other hand, I can use my hand to specifically direct the cue stick to and through the striking of the cue ball. This would be a firmer grip. After trying it both ways I find that I have better control of what the cue ball does if I have positive control of the stick thru the execution.

Much is made of the short amount of time the cue is in contact with the ball. I do not think this is the primary problem. The problem, for me, is to strike the cue ball in such a way that I am in complete control of the cue ball’s movement along a particular path. This requires a firmer grip at and after contact than what some people advocate.

Obviously there is a trade off. A death grip is also a loss of control. In my experience a cradle does not provide sufficient positive control over the outcome. I think that it is something you have to play with until you find the right amount of control for you.

I found my “best” grip by setting up a consistent system of shot making which started with different cuts and then proceeded to the same cuts with different types of spin. Then I varied my grip for the series of shots and kept track (with paper and pencil) of which way was better for me.

One of the things I learned through experience (though it is advocated by many instructors) was the importance of a shorter bridge length for draw and the importance of being on center for length of table draw shots. But then that is why I love this game it gets so complicated and it is difficult to keep one thing constant until you learn what is and is not of use to you.

For me a loose wrist is needed for extreme draw. This also requires a looser (but not a cradle) grip. However, for consistent regular shot making a locked wrist and a firmer grip is “best.”

I think that we all have slightly different fine motor control and that there is no one size fits all when it comes to the grip. Different grips are of use for different types of shots. In the end I seek positive control of the cue ball.

In line with Hu's thinking, my stick weighs in at about 20.5 oz and is heavier than many other players use. None-the-less, I have this need for positive control of the cue's direction and speed at and thru contact.

Joe,

I agree about grip or at least don't think the superlight grip I was using is best. I'm more in tune with a light to medium grip than the superlight grip I was using at the end of the session. Pretty sure it cost me a few shots too but it took a lot or all of the unintended steering out of my stroke.

I haven't really tried to test this systematically to prove it but I think that a pool cue is the same as the equipment in several other sports. If you start off with the minimal grip to hang on to it you will increase grip to an adequate level without deliberately tightening your grip. I'm swinging a hammer or shovel a lot more than a pool cue lately and my biggest issue is not strangling the cue it seems. Of course on a day when I'm not so beaten up physically my grip will probably revert to my normal grip betwixt and between the two I was using yesterday.

Hu

 

[BilliardsAbout]

Hi, all:

I'll be specific:

1. On the 1 to 10 scale, 10 being your death throttle and 1 being so light the cue is about to leave your hand and hit the table, 1 works well for most shots. If you have to draw a long way or something special, 1.5 to 2.0 is fine. You be amazed how hard you can break, by the way, using less than a 1 grip.

2. A lot of players have never gripped anywhere near a 1 or 2. I often say, "Hold the cue half as light as you would normally, now drop that by half again..." and it's still nowhere near a 1 but it's better than before.

3. There are many fine players up around 3 or 4, and some fine players who shoot 1 and 2 but when they get nervous move up to a 3 or 4. Just start becoming aware of your numbers so you're in control--paradoxically by relinquishing "control". More here:

The Pro Grip Is The Pro Stroke Secret

4. A lot of what has been said on this thread about wrist action (or no wrist action) and about the cue coming forward with power has to do with the physical fact that once your cue comes in motion, there's a lot you can do to take it off line, slow the cue and ruin the shot--so less is also more here:

Newton's First Law And Getting More From Your Stroke With Less

 

[West Point 1987]

I'm with CJ Wiley on this one...

Get down in your stance, loose grip and pause at the point of contact. Now tighten your grip. See the tip move? That's what happens when you tighten your grip mid-stroke...the key is to have a consistent pressure throughout the stroke; that may need a slightly firmer grip than just cradled, it may not. I found that slightly firmer was more consistent than loose for me. The firmer the grip, the less the feel and control, though. You have to find the right balance.

Hoppe advocated a tight closed bridge, too...enough so that the skin of your index finger rolled back and forth. With that kind of bridge, a super loose grip on the stroke hand wouldn't work, either...

On a completely different note, I've recently tried an open bridge with all fingers tucked (except the index finger) ala Ray Martin. I tried it on a lark. I was amazed at the level of control and feel I got from that bridge. I guess I never realized how much my bridge hand rolled left and right with fingers splayed--this bridge is for sure more stable...but the feel and control improvement is inexplicable to me. Try it and see for yourself, I'd have never thunk it myself until I tried it jacking around about a month ago. Don't think I'll ever go back!

 

[poolpro]

Maybe this will help

Whenever I try to describe proper grip pressure, I use a baby bird as an example. Meaning this- Imagine holding a baby bird in your hand. You need to hold it firmly enough to keep him there, but not firm enough to hurt him. This seems to resonate very well with enough people. It is a very specific and easily understood amount of pressure to most people.

I forget where I first heard it, but it serves as a good example.

 

[joelpope]

Momentum, not grip

I am a proponent of a light grip. You are hitting a 5 ounce smooth round ball on a smooth surface with a 20 ounce cue. Think of those dynamics.

You don't need to add 200 pounds of body weight or your grip and arm muscles to move the cue ball 7 rails

The purpose of your grip hand is to guide the cue at a speed that will pocket the object ball and achieve your desired shape for the next shot. Cue speed and the 20 ounce cue hitting the 5 ounce cue ball will get the job done so why introduce a bunch of muscles that aren't needed?

I know, 5.5 oz and 17 to 21 oz but I'm just making a point with approximate weights

 

[ShootingArts]

cue weight

I am a proponent of a light grip. You are hitting a 5 ounce smooth round ball on a smooth surface with a 20 ounce cue. Think of those dynamics.

You don't need to add 200 pounds of body weight or your grip and arm muscles to move the cue ball 7 rails

The purpose of your grip hand is to guide the cue at a speed that will pocket the object ball and achieve your desired shape for the next shot. Cue speed and the 20 ounce cue hitting the 5 ounce cue ball will get the job done so why introduce a bunch of muscles that aren't needed?

I know, 5.5 oz and 17 to 21 oz but I'm just making a point with approximate weights

Not sure why but I have found that the cue stick and cue ball weight are in best working proportions at at about 3X. Going slightly lighter seems to make the hit much less efficient and going heavier seems to give stick weight too much importance for fine control despite my arm being many times heavier than the stick.

I have wondered about the math behind this many times. I have played with many different weight cues, quite a bit with cues from 12-24 ounces and tried one over two pounds for a short time. Like most people I find a 19 ounce cue plays well, right around there seems to be the sweet spot compared to cue ball weight.

As a beginner, I moved towards heavier sticks, 20-22 ounces. As my skills increased the weight of my cue seemed to naturally decrease as I took more control of my stroke. I played for a long time with a 19 ounce cue, then a 17 for several years before seeking out a fifteen ounce cue. Finally I tried a 12 ounce snooker cue to play pool with, even when playing on bar tables with the mud ball.

Despite the seemingly overwhelming difference in weight between a cue ball and the cue stick, there is a lot of difference between playing with a 21 ounce cue and a 17 ounce cue, and day and night differences when moving another few ounces in each direction. A 22 ounce or heavier cue seems like it really drives through a cue ball effortlessly, a 15 ounce or lighter cue seems like it rebounds off of the cue ball like a hammer hitting a nail in hard wood and needs much more grip and muscular control. While I am aware it is still roughly twice as heavy as the cue ball the 12 ounce cue felt subjectively lighter than the cue ball when using it to play pool.

I suspect there is a formula to explain why most of us favor around a 19 ounce cue but I have never seen one. I played my best with the twelve ounce cue but it was also the second hardest to play with cue I ever used, the two pound plus monster being the hardest.

Just a ramble, I have always been a little curious concerning the math that explains the relationship between cue ball and cue stick weight. Right around 3X seems to be the sweet spot but why I do not know.

Hu

 

[joelpope]

Not sure why but I have found that the cue stick and cue ball weight are in best working proportions at at about 3X. Going slightly lighter seems to make the hit much less efficient and going heavier seems to give stick weight too much importance for fine control despite my arm being many times heavier than the stick.

I have wondered about the math behind this many times. I have played with many different weight cues, quite a bit with cues from 12-24 ounces and tried one over two pounds for a short time. Like most people I find a 19 ounce cue plays well, right around there seems to be the sweet spot compared to cue ball weight.

As a beginner, I moved towards heavier sticks, 20-22 ounces. As my skills increased the weight of my cue seemed to naturally decrease as I took more control of my stroke. I played for a long time with a 19 ounce cue, then a 17 for several years before seeking out a fifteen ounce cue. Finally I tried a 12 ounce snooker cue to play pool with, even when playing on bar tables with the mud ball.

Despite the seemingly overwhelming difference in weight between a cue ball and the cue stick, there is a lot of difference between playing with a 21 ounce cue and a 17 ounce cue, and day and night differences when moving another few ounces in each direction. A 22 ounce or heavier cue seems like it really drives through a cue ball effortlessly, a 15 ounce or lighter cue seems like it rebounds off of the cue ball like a hammer hitting a nail in hard wood and needs much more grip and muscular control. While I am aware it is still roughly twice as heavy as the cue ball the 12 ounce cue felt subjectively lighter than the cue ball when using it to play pool.

I suspect there is a formula to explain why most of us favor around a 19 ounce cue but I have never seen one. I played my best with the twelve ounce cue but it was also the second hardest to play with cue I ever used, the two pound plus monster being the hardest.

Just a ramble, I have always been a little curious concerning the math that explains the relationship between cue ball and cue stick weight. Right around 3X seems to be the sweet spot but why I do not know.

Hu

never looked at the ratio quite that way, have never tried to figure out the math either

the force applied to the cue ball will be a function of the speed of the cue and the weight of the cue so it seems to me that any change in cue weight could be offset by cue delivery speed as opposed to grip pressure

I agree with the 19.25 - 19.5 cue weight as being what I like best, and, not to derail the topic but I also like the feel of a heavier shaft versus a heavy butt & light shaft

 

[Bob Jewett]

... I suspect there is a formula to explain why most of us favor around a 19 ounce cue but I have never seen one. I played my best with the twelve ounce cue but it was also the second hardest to play with cue I ever used, the two pound plus monster being the hardest.

...

A very hand-wavy explanation says that the cue stick should be roughly half way between the cue ball weight and the effective weight of your arm. (half way in the geometric mean sense) Something like that should enable the shot to be made with the least wasted effort.

The hand-wavy theory also predicts that for highest break shot speed, varying a couple of ounces from the optimum weight should make very little difference in cue ball speed, but players seem to be finely tuned to a narrow range of weights. Your experiments are the widest range I've heard of being tested.

 

[ShootingArts]

more a matter of feel than function

never looked at the ratio quite that way, have never tried to figure out the math either

the force applied to the cue ball will be a function of the speed of the cue and the weight of the cue so it seems to me that any change in cue weight could be offset by cue delivery speed as opposed to grip pressure

I agree with the 19.25 - 19.5 cue weight as being what I like best, and, not to derail the topic but I also like the feel of a heavier shaft versus a heavy butt & light shaft

Moving the cue ball around with the lighter cues is more a matter of feel than function. You can move the mud ball as much as you want to with a 12 ounce cue but it is like driving a thirty penny nail with a tack hammer. When I first met carpenters I thought it was funny that they all carried at least two or three claw hammers. Although the hammers weighed many times what a nail does after I hammered enough nails myself I found that there was indeed a best weight hammer for each nail size.

It doesn't really matter why one weight cue is best or why we like a certain balance. Just one of those things I am curious about that not knowing will never affect my game in the least.

Hu

 

[FranCrimi]

Whenever I try to describe proper grip pressure, I use a baby bird as an example. Meaning this- Imagine holding a baby bird in your hand. You need to hold it firmly enough to keep him there, but not firm enough to hurt him. This seems to resonate very well with enough people. It is a very specific and easily understood amount of pressure to most people.

I forget where I first heard it, but it serves as a good example.

Well, using that analogy, I'm afraid I've killed many baby birds over the years. Still killing the poor things on several types of shots.

 

[scottjen26]

On the 1 - 10 scale, I probably gripped around 2 or 3 but definitely used to feel more like I was driving the cue through the ball, sort of directing it, and because of that I'm sure my grip pressure would probably increase on some shots during the stroke. I guess because of my background with other sports, it's great to have a relaxed grip or swing but your body will do what is necessary at the moment if impact to keep the object from flying out of your hands. Similar to a tennis swing, you can have a relaxed grip (and here, too, the pros are much, much more relaxed than the typical amateur), but at the moment of impact there is some resistance to the tennis ball, so your grip will naturally tighten somewhat.

Because of the weights and forces/resistance involved in pool, however, I have found that on a lot of normal shots, I do better by trying to stay very relaxed throughout the stroke, not so much directing the cue as just starting it on its path and letting it finish naturally. A subtle difference for me, but one that has almost completely eliminated my old bad habit of occasionally steering or flinching during the stroke. Now there are still certain shots where I like to have more control of the shot, and might tighten up a bit either before or during the stroke, but I agree that relaxed without being too relaxed is the way to go for most.

Scott

 

[BilliardsAbout]

Is it possible to be holding the cue too loosely? I have heard all of the analogies like "hold it like you would hold toothpaste without squeezing it out, etc" but none of these really make sense to me, can someone please try to explain the amount of grip pressure that is ideal? also, does this grip pressure change at all through the stroke, as I know the natural tendency is to tighten up on forward stroke/impact?

Yes, it is possible--if you drop the cue to the table, hit an object ball and incur a foul!

Think "grip zero" like Coke Zero over the cue ball and watch your percentages soar.

The pros shoot softly most of the time. They do use "necessary force," but how much force is necessary to roll a ball two inches to 15 feet over a perfectly level table?

I always liked what George Fels about needing to push the cue ball over a surface level to thousands of an inch versus trying to smash the same weight ball 450 feet over the centerfield fence for a home run...

 

[Brandon B.]

Grip discrepancies

Alright I was searching the forums and the word "grip" is pretty common so I figured I would post here may e get some feedback. Lately I've been working on my game and stroke to prepare for the upcoming months and I feel that I am not after all this time playing have problems with my grip and transitioning from an 8 footer to a 9 footer. I used all sorts of grips and found that only having two fingers just the thumb and the index to hold the cue works the best for me. So what I'm getting at is, is that an unorthodox way of "gripping" the cue? I felt that the cradle and the three finger grips hinder action on the cue ball. Also does the weight of the butt make a difference in the grip with diameter and such. It seems that most pool players who cradle like the Europeans ala Darren Appleton, Mario He etc looks like they cradle and shoot consistent. Just some thoughts.

 

[Scott Lee]

Alright I was searching the forums and the word "grip" is pretty common so I figured I would post here may e get some feedback. Lately I've been working on my game and stroke to prepare for the upcoming months and I feel that I am not after all this time playing have problems with my grip and transitioning from an 8 footer to a 9 footer. I used all sorts of grips and found that only having two fingers just the thumb and the index to hold the cue works the best for me. So what I'm getting at is, is that an unorthodox way of "gripping" the cue? No it is not! I felt that the cradle and the three finger grips hinder action on the cue ball. They don't, but different people are comfortable with different styles of grips/cradles that work for them. The basic concept is the keep the cradle/grip relaxed, and let the weight of the cue and timing create the stroke speed (that means it should be relaxed on the forward stroke too...not just on the backswing).Also does the weight of the butt make a difference in the grip with diameter and such. Again, no, as most cues weigh about 3x the weight of the CB (6 oz, give or take a few grams), which is plenty, with great timing and a relaxed grip, to do whatever you want with the CB...including power draws and the break! It seems that most pool players who cradle like the Europeans ala Darren Appleton, Mario He etc looks like they cradle and shoot consistent. Just some thoughts.

As I posted above, there is no one correct kind of grip for everybody. IMO the looser the better (almost everyone grips too tightly, at one point or another in their swing process). Wrist snap doesn't do as much as people believe, in terms of CB action, but a fluid, relaxed stroke sure does wonders. Nothing wrong with what you're doing, as long as it works for you, Try to be less influenced by what some pro does, and concentrate more on what works best for you. :thumbup:

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com

 

[Brandon B.]

snip

Thank you Scott Lee! You are correct about the break shot concerning the grip as well because not only do i use that grip for normal shots i applied to the break as well. I found myself hitting the rack clean making 1-3 balls average with a decent shot on the next ball. And you're right i should concern myself with my game and not the pros....lol pros aren't going to win a match of tourney for me. Thanks again for the reply:thumbup:

 

[BilliardsAbout]

Yes, Scott. That is terrific.

I can break very hard, but on tables where I'm smashing the rack and balls aren't falling, stroking lightly and loosely will pocket two or three balls off an 8-Ball rack, for one example.

 

[boogieman]

hold it only enough so it doesn't drop out of your hand onto the floor. You are only holding it against gravity, not the back and forth movement. I would say hold it like you are letting a feather rest in your hand, so if the wind blew, it would blow away.