It's not passive at all. The wrist has to intentionally flex if the player wants to keep the grip on the first two fingers throughout the stroke. And if they're trying to focus on not having a gap, the wrist will have to flex even more because that kind of grip goes against the body's anatomy as an arm swings through. The last word is yours because I will not go back and forth endlessly with you as you like to do.
GRIP QUESTION
- Thread starter bbb
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WobblyStroke
Well-known member
Fran the only times we ever went endlessly back and forth were the two times you were absurdly wrong and refused to own up to it so I had to keep slappin down your lame attempts to weasel out of what you said. You're wrong here too.
First off, I'm assuming you are referring to ulnar deviation in the wrist (a bend towards the pinky side) when you say 'flex' of the wrist but a flexion in the wrist is smth different entirely and doesn't need to happen at all in a front finger pronated grip. Here's a useful diagram so we are at least using the same words to describe the same things:
First off, I'm assuming you are referring to ulnar deviation in the wrist (a bend towards the pinky side) when you say 'flex' of the wrist but a flexion in the wrist is smth different entirely and doesn't need to happen at all in a front finger pronated grip. Here's a useful diagram so we are at least using the same words to describe the same things:
WobblyStroke
Well-known member
Here's a very good vid by Barry Stark on grip that I think has a lot of good stuff in it. Of particular interest to this discussion is the tight front finger (no gap) and front hand pressure in the back swing and the transition to pressure felt in the back fingers on delivery (I have a huge hand so middle finger is enough for me, but for many it is ring finger). Barry does rightly mention that this is just ONE way to do it. There are many ways. And if yours aint broke, don't fix it. But he explains and demos this method very well...
For this method, it is perfectly natural to move the cue back and forth in a straight line with any ulnar deviation on delivery being passively performed as the hand closes on the cue while the forearm moves forward of 90 degrees into the finish. There is no fighting of a natural swing as Fran suggests. You hold on, you swing the arm to its finish position, and the wrist happens to accommodate that with a slight ulnar deviation, which as I mentioned, just happens and doesn't need to be consciously performed. It is a natural way for the hand and arm to work together. This actually feels very consistent and unchanging. Natural as pie. No fighting anatomy here. And yes, he starts and ends with no gap, which isn't the same as keeping the pressure up front the entire time. Tho that can work too as Barry demo'd in the vid...that technique just ain't for him.
For this method, it is perfectly natural to move the cue back and forth in a straight line with any ulnar deviation on delivery being passively performed as the hand closes on the cue while the forearm moves forward of 90 degrees into the finish. There is no fighting of a natural swing as Fran suggests. You hold on, you swing the arm to its finish position, and the wrist happens to accommodate that with a slight ulnar deviation, which as I mentioned, just happens and doesn't need to be consciously performed. It is a natural way for the hand and arm to work together. This actually feels very consistent and unchanging. Natural as pie. No fighting anatomy here. And yes, he starts and ends with no gap, which isn't the same as keeping the pressure up front the entire time. Tho that can work too as Barry demo'd in the vid...that technique just ain't for him.
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I prefer to unwrap and wrap during the swing. I don't like to put any pressure on the thumb or forefinger. My forefinger provides touch and feel. Basically, it's a dead finger stroke.
I know it works with pitch and chip shots (golf) why not billiards?
That's O'rcullo's grip....
WobblyStroke
Well-known member
Yes "pressure" sure does have a rigid forcedul connotation to it, but all that this 'pressure' talk is referring to is what has control/leverage over the cue....light and delicate as it may be.
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WobblyStroke
Well-known member
Same concepts applied differently. Some like to control every bit and feel like they make the tool do what they want. Some try to let the tool swing and do as little as possible to interfere with it. Some actively feel a playing around with and directing momentum. Just as these general approaches can be applied to either golf or pool. So can any specific types of feels, tension levels felt in the hands. 'different strokes for different folks'. But any stroke concept can be distilled to its general approach and applied to various sports.
Holding, not grabbing.
thats a pronated grip (i think)
WobblyStroke
Well-known member
Here's a quick take on grip intensity from another snooker guy...
Bob Jewett was quoted in an article that's valuable to, and maybe the jewel in the crown.
Several months ago I was experiencing some issues with my grip (yes) pressure. I found a couple of threads that talked about the “V” grip, and the importance of pressure through the cue ball contact. I learned how to hold the cue more in the web of my hand. The discussion also covered different thumb positions.
billiards.colostate.edu
Several months ago I was experiencing some issues with my grip (yes) pressure. I found a couple of threads that talked about the “V” grip, and the importance of pressure through the cue ball contact. I learned how to hold the cue more in the web of my hand. The discussion also covered different thumb positions.
Shoot like the Pros
Shoot like the Pros - Billiards and Pool Principles, Techniques, Resources
Joe WaldronJanuary 2009 Follow-through is more than pushing your hand through the cue ball. We have heard a thousand times that follow-through is important, and of course, we all agree. How many players have stopped to think what it means to truly follow-through on the stroke? When you take up...
billiards.colostate.edu
skiergd011013
Well-known member
Allisons grip as shown in a video i took of her. Watch the stroke at 0:23. It appears she is doing the thumb and pointer finger grip, and just cradling the cue loosely with the other 3, unfurling them on the pullback
WobblyStroke
Well-known member
If u look at how high up and around the cue her middle finger goes, that position would suggest this finger doesn't unfurl with the last 2 but is instead the finger her grip pressure moves to in the backswing and then the cue rides in on it for the through stroke.
I may be projecting a bit of my technique onto her tho as this is the finger I finish on, but it does appear to me that starting the middle finger so wrapped around would make it less than ideal to have that finger unfurl along with the last two.
In the vid I linked in a prior post, Barry Stark goes over how pressure shifts to back fingers saying for him it is the ring finger while some use the pinky. I use the middle finger. It appears to me that AF does as well.
AF another pronated grip?
WobblyStroke
Well-known member
Probably. As you know, it is possible to get the same or at least very similat look with different things actually going on to produce that look, so I can't be sure, but I'd say chances are good AF plays a pronated grip. Dennis Orcollo's grip posted above is so extreme it's obvious but Alison can get that appearance in other ways too.
In general, it is very common for snooker coaches to mention the 'pronated' grip, obv Barry Stark the most notable one included. I think in some cases it is a misnomer and they are just using the word pronated interchangeably with 'thumb-down'. But as I mentioned in a previous post, while all pronated grips are thumb down (with a standard diameter butt anyway) not all thumb down grips are necessarily pronated.
What's neat about DO's grip.
As he hit's thru the cue ball, his rear fingers close up on the handle.... allows all fingers in play during shot execution.