Handicapped Tourney Discussion

[Big Perm]

Do better players understand the theory of the handicapped tourney?

Over the last month or so, I've had 3 strong players make similar statements:

"I've played about 20 times this year and only won once"

"I should be in the top 2 at least once a month, and cash most weeks"

"I should be cashing every week"

Three different statements from three solid players that all play in the same weekly handicapped tournament that has 20-40 people play each week. My understanding of any handicap system is that it allows people of different skill levels to compete on an equal playing field - ie, if you play your best that week, regardless of level, you are gonna be in the money. If you have an off week, regardless of your skill, you are in for an early exit. Granted, handicapped systems aren't perfect, but over time you adjust players up or down based on their performance so everyone has a chance.

If I have a player that cashes every week, I'm gonna bump them. If I have someone that continually goes 2 and out, they should be given more weight. I just don't get the expectation that you cash every week. Now, on the other hand, if you are putting in more and more time, continually improving, you can stay ahead of a handicap for a while. Also, if you are talking about a normal tour without handicaps, then I can certainly see where the better player has the advantage.

Thoughts?

 

[center pocket]

This a good thread Perm. Here in Arizona they have a handicap system that takes a little getting used too. I agree with you that if you continue to practice and stay in stroke, you can stay ahead of the handicap. I did for awhile before I deployed.

 

[trustyrusty]

the best players in the field don't like when a handicap system works and creates an even game for their opponents PERIOD.

If everyone plays balls out and it's a coinflip, sooner or later players will play below thier skill level to get lowered so they can have their advantage again.....sounds bad, but it'll happen.

If I have to go to 5 and play someone that goes to 4, and it's a dogfight; that's the way I like it. But, I'm not everyone - most want the easiest route to the money. I feel for ya bro! I wouldn't want to hear all the bickering about he/she should be this, and I should be that; I hear enough of that in league, and I only play that once a week!!

 

[stick8]

my way!!!!

Do better players understand the theory of the handicapped tourney?

Over the last month or so, I've had 3 strong players make similar statements:

"I've played about 20 times this year and only won once"

"I should be in the top 2 at least once a month, and cash most weeks"

"I should be cashing every week"

Three different statements from three solid players that all play in the same weekly handicapped tournament that has 20-40 people play each week. My understanding of any handicap system is that it allows people of different skill levels to compete on an equal playing field - ie, if you play your best that week, regardless of level, you are gonna be in the money. If you have an off week, regardless of your skill, you are in for an early exit. Granted, handicapped systems aren't perfect, but over time you adjust players up or down based on their performance so everyone has a chance.

If I have a player that cashes every week, I'm gonna bump them. If I have someone that continually goes 2 and out, they should be given more weight. I just don't get the expectation that you cash every week. Now, on the other hand, if you are putting in more and more time, continually improving, you can stay ahead of a handicap for a while. Also, if you are talking about a normal tour without handicaps, then I can certainly see where the better player has the advantage.

Thoughts?

I have this system i have used for yr, and seems to work well-- rating 2--to--7-1 2 are beginers 7-1 are my top players. i watch and rate you then you begain play ---example if you start as a 4 and win more than $50.00 you go up 1 rating --to5-- if you play in 3 tourny and dont place you come back to 4,in you place more than $50 in tourny playing as 5, you go to 6 and can go no lower than a5. showes me you have improved!! workes well!! the 7-1 have to give everone a game , except the 2-3. they get a ball from7-1---2get 7ball----3get8 ball.works well different winner most every week had 52 players last sunday----had 33 last nite!!!GREAT TIME HAD MY ALL, IF YOU NOT A PRO OR ROAD PLAYER COME PLAY AT STICKS!!!!!

 

[Aaron_S]

I think what you find a lot of times is a handicapping system that simply isn't working. This often leads to a tourney that is dominated by the top 2 or 3 players in the room, and those guys show up with the expectation of walking away with the cash each week. If those guys are complaining, then it may be because your handicapping system is actually working.

I have certainly seen it go too far the other direction, however, where the bar is set too low for the lower handicap players, and the B+ player finds himself in a position where he has to play perfectly to win against the C- player. In this case, the B+ player will usually either complain or just walk, because he doesn't figure to play too many perfect sets, and many people do not have the disposable income to play in tourneys where they know their highest gear probably won't get them there.

It's a delicate balance, for sure, and there will always be some complaining. If you're drawing 20-40 players each week, though, I wouldn't worry about it too much.

Aaron

 

[Big Perm]

It's a delicate balance, for sure, and there will always be some complaining. If you're drawing 20-40 players each week, though, I wouldn't worry about it too much.

Aaron

Thanks for the feedback so far, appreciate the input....

To be clear, it's not my tourney, I just play.....when I said "I", I simply meant that my logic, not my tourney.....just wanted to be clear :grin:

 

[Paul Dayton]

You are right. If a player is playing at the top of his game, he or she should have as good a chance to win as anybody. Occasionally you might play in a zone and win but if that continues your rating goes up.

A properly handicapped tournament should have lots of different winners from every handicap bracket but the best players should cash more often because they are more consistent.

 

[Pushout]

Better players who don't always win because of the handicapping system will always ***** about it, in my experience. Lesser players won't participate without one. It's VERY tough to find one that works well and creates an even game between both types of players. Pool, for tournament play at least, is very hard to handicap. Again, the two-and-out in double elimination tournaments is hard to fade, not like playing for money where you can adjust every match if needed. Tournament play can be adjusted on a weekly basis but everybody wants to win today:wink:

 

[Tom In Cincy]

IMO, handicaps are just to get more players entering the tournament.

You still have to play better than your handicap indicates to defeat better players.

Or, on the other hand, better players have play down or worse than their regular level for the lower handicap players to have a decent chance to win.

On average, IMO, players that play above their assigned handicap levels usually win.

 

[Porcospino]

Handicap tournaments SUCK!! My advice is get some heart. Get up on the table with that good player that has spent time practicing to play good and try as hard as you can. If you don't win, so what..... What did you expect?? If you play once a week and this guy practices everyday do you really expect to win?? Practice up and try again!! I think we should stop punishing better plays. Players that spend time practicing, that play everyday, or stay in tough action. These are the avenues to becoming a better player. Pool is a very tough game. It requires practice, time, and experience to develope. If people aren't willing to make sacrifices to become better than they don't derserve to win.

You have to really think about it from the better players point of view. Here you got this guy who plays everyday, practices all the time, plays in every tournament weekly and on the weekends, and gambles in tough action all the time. He enters a tournament they jack him up to one of the highest ranks they have and even if he plays perfect he still loses because the other guy got a couple good rolls. How do you think he feels when someone of a lower rank gets up there and starts playing good, because they either lied about there rating or just having a good night.

Here is a sernario. You enter a tournament for the 1st time and because the someone knows how you play they put you in as a 10. In this tournament if you are new you start as a 5, but not you because they know how you play. Remember you have taken no money from the pot in this tournament, but you are the highest skill rank there is.. Joe Blow from the pool hall across town comes in, nobody knows him. He is a 5 (Really plays like an 8) So he cleans out the tournament let's say $270 for 1st. He completely ran you over because of the spot he was getting. You walk up to the tournament director and say hey that guy is not a 5. He/She says well I'll watch him and see if he is or not. Next week he comes in again and now since he won it last week he is a 6 (still should be an 8) He gets 2nd, $150. The tournament director debates on moving him up because he didn't win. Let's go ahead and say that the tournament director doesn't know what they are doing and thinks that because he didn't win he still is a 6. He comes back next week and snaps it off again, another $270. Now he moves up to an 7 and then he just never comes back. So you got this guy who came in the same time you did and snapped off $690 and you've done nothing but donated $45 ($15 entry fee) and then when you asked to be moved down the tournament director gets mad at you and says that She can't allow you to steal the tournament as a 9.

So you are punished for people knowing that you play good and for playing good. Handicap tournaments are garbage.

 

[Big Perm]

Handicap tournaments SUCK!! My advice is get some heart.

So you are punished for people knowing that you play good and for playing good. Handicap tournaments are garbage.

Basically, you are alienating 90%+ of the people that compete in tournaments in almost every sport by saying that they don't have heart....the vast majority of competetive events in every sport are handicapped.....and many of those people have tons of heart....

And, although I rarely cash in our little Wednesday tourney, it's a ton of fun, it's competetive, and the people are great.....

 

[Firecracker]

Hey Big Perm, missed you Wednesday.

Interesting thread considering what happened...got to hear one of the top players complaining about having to give additional games.

Anyway, with handicap events, someone is always going to b***h, period. If someone who is higher ranked, gets beat by someone whose lower ranked, then suddenly that person isn't ranked high enough (even though the spot was fine before the match started). And it goes both ways on that one. When I used to run a handicap event, to prevent ringers from walking in off the street, the first time you played and if no regular could vouch for you, your ranking was high. If I saw from play and heard from other players, I would adjust based on ability normally the next time the player came in.

I think handicap tournaments are good for bringing in a wide level of playing abilities. As long as the lesser players think the spot is fair, they will keep coming, even if they continually are beat by the top players. The trick is finding a fair spot that the top players can also be able to overcome when they play well.

Wednesday night panned out evenly, a top player giving an extra game to all won, a few mid-level players finished 2-4th, and 5-6 was a lower ranked player and another top ranked player. I think in a handicap tourney, that Doc's spot worked out pretty well.

 

[Big Perm]

Hey Big Perm, missed you Wednesday.

Interesting thread considering what happened...got to hear one of the top players complaining about having to give additional games.
.

Sorry I missed all that.....wanted to come but ended up having part of our family Christmas on Wednesday, so it was a no-go for me.....I had no idea this happened, these comments were before that.....

I wish I was good enough to have to go to 5 on Wednesday night.....then I'd be feared :grin:

Doc does a damn good job with the handi's....

 

[Fastolfe]

the best players in the field don't like when a handicap system works and creates an even game for their opponents PERIOD.

And you know why? Because these players have spent a lot of time training, improving, learning... Why would lesser players have an even chance of winning? Handicap systems are a sign of today's society where the meek claim their share of success without working for it.

There is another system that lets players compete on an equal footing, whilst clearly separating those who have experience (or talent, or both) from those who don't: divisions. 1st division players play compete against each other, weaker players get to do the same in 2nd, 3rd, 4th divisions, and players who outgrow their division get bumped up. When they've worked their way to the top, then they get to play the top players.

There's really only one reason to use a handicap system, and that's when there aren't enough players in a given sport/activity to populate several divisions. It's the case over here with 3 cushion leagues: the sport is dying fast in favor of pool, and so there just aren't enough players, so those left get to play one another with handicaps.

 

[Papa Red]

Handicap tournaments SUCK!! My advice is get some heart. Get up on the table with that good player that has spent time practicing to play good and try as hard as you can. If you don't win, so what..... What did you expect?? If you play once a week and this guy practices everyday do you really expect to win?? Practice up and try again!! I think we should stop punishing better plays. Players that spend time practicing, that play everyday, or stay in tough action. These are the avenues to becoming a better player. Pool is a very tough game. It requires practice, time, and experience to develope. If people aren't willing to make sacrifices to become better than they don't derserve to win.

You have to really think about it from the better players point of view. Here you got this guy who plays everyday, practices all the time, plays in every tournament weekly and on the weekends, and gambles in tough action all the time. He enters a tournament they jack him up to one of the highest ranks they have and even if he plays perfect he still loses because the other guy got a couple good rolls. How do you think he feels when someone of a lower rank gets up there and starts playing good, because they either lied about there rating or just having a good night.

Here is a sernario. You enter a tournament for the 1st time and because the someone knows how you play they put you in as a 10. In this tournament if you are new you start as a 5, but not you because they know how you play. Remember you have taken no money from the pot in this tournament, but you are the highest skill rank there is.. Joe Blow from the pool hall across town comes in, nobody knows him. He is a 5 (Really plays like an 8) So he cleans out the tournament let's say $270 for 1st. He completely ran you over because of the spot he was getting. You walk up to the tournament director and say hey that guy is not a 5. He/She says well I'll watch him and see if he is or not. Next week he comes in again and now since he won it last week he is a 6 (still should be an 8) He gets 2nd, $150. The tournament director debates on moving him up because he didn't win. Let's go ahead and say that the tournament director doesn't know what they are doing and thinks that because he didn't win he still is a 6. He comes back next week and snaps it off again, another $270. Now he moves up to an 7 and then he just never comes back. So you got this guy who came in the same time you did and snapped off $690 and you've done nothing but donated $45 ($15 entry fee) and then when you asked to be moved down the tournament director gets mad at you and says that She can't allow you to steal the tournament as a 9.

So you are punished for people knowing that you play good and for playing good. Handicap tournaments are garbage.

Do you gamble, and how much weight do you ask for!

 

[iusedtoberich]

The people who complain in weekly handicapped tourneys are crybabies. No other way to put it. I've been playing in weekly handicapped tourneys for 10 years in at least 10 different rooms. Every room has their stable of crybabies. Skill level has no bearing on if a person is a crybaby. You will have D player crybabies, A player crybabies, and everything in between.

Nothing anyone can do about it, because its just the personality of the person.

Good day.

 

[Bob Jewett]

...
Thoughts?

There are simple handicapping systems that adjust the skill levels automatically and without any decisions by the TD. I think those eliminate a lot of the "I'm not rated fairly" problems. I've posted about these before.

If you want to give an advantage to higher-rated players, I think you should do it explicitly. For example, cash awards for BROs, or a Masters' Tournament at the end of the season for all the players above a certain rating with a reasonable number of entries. It is also possible to build an advantage for them into the ratings, but that's trickier.

If the tournament is supposed to determine a champion, don't use handicaps. If the tournament is supposed to give challenging matches to all the players, use handicaps.

 

[Woof Biscuit]

I am not a fan of handicap tournaments for all of the reasons stated. I paid my dues and feel that I should have an advantage because of that. BUT, I don't think there would be any local tournaments if they didn't handicap. Because I love to play, I show up and play realizing that I have to make no mistakes and get lucky to win.

 

[Big Perm]

There is another system that lets players compete on an equal footing, whilst clearly separating those who have experience (or talent, or both) from those who don't: divisions. 1st division players play compete against each other, weaker players get to do the same in 2nd, 3rd, 4th divisions, and players who outgrow their division get bumped up. When they've worked their way to the top, then they get to play the top players.

Fast, I don't see the difference between divisions and handicapping???

Essentially, you are letting everyone compete, but at the same level in both handicapping and divisions.....with handicapping, everybody is in the same pot.....as you improve, your handicap is adjusted.....if you are in separate divisions, you are essentially competing with others of the same skill set, hence a level playing field.....and if you improve you get bumped to the next division, just like a handicap.....the two are just different forms of allowing people to play on a level field....

In this instance, why don't you just put everyone in the same group.....this way the "better, stronger players who practice more" can beat everyone and make more money.....if the walterweight put on more pounds and hit the gym, he could be a heavyweight.....if a division two school recruited better, they could play division one.....in high school football, everyone plays 5A, those kids from the smaller schools need to eat their wheaties....divisions or levels is just another way to handicap and "punish those who work harder".....shouldn't the better players in each sport get paid by everybody who is weaker???

 

[trustyrusty]

And you know why? Because these players have spent a lot of time training, improving, learning... Why would lesser players have an even chance of winning? Handicap systems are a sign of today's society where the meek claim their share of success without working for it.

Pretty big assumption on your part. I think it's a sign of halls/bars wanting more than just 6 players, who have a chance of cashing duking it out each week playing even, showing up for said tourneys. There may be a few donators that would play just to play the better players (like I would), but those guys are far and few between, and I think it has zero to do with claiming any kind of success....and much more to do with some not believing it's worth X amount of dollars every week to have their heads handed to them.

Again, I think it's worth the price to play stiffer competition, but many may think dropping $20-$30 or more every Thurs. (whatever) and going 2 and out isn't worth it.

I don't have a lot of buddies who want to play even on the golf course, and giving up strokes is a way to PUSH myself, so I don't mind it a bit....seems poolplayers expect a bit much because of their "hardwork, putting in their dues, or whatever", and don't want that challenge. So you occasionally run into a guy who plays above what you spot him, or you have an off night....BIG DEAL, it's a local weekly tourney! If it's your only source of income, OK, complain away, but might I also suggest you look for another way to make money other than local weekly tourneys :grin: