handicaps from different regions

[Celophanewrap]

That's my opinion also and its what I found to be true the few state regionals and the one national event I have played in so far.

With that said its just surprising that the 4 people that have moved here from other regions in the last 6 months have been weaker than players here with the same handicap. Maybe its just my bad luck that I am the one that wind up with weak players from other areas rather than strong ones lol.

I think allot of it depends on how often you play a league match. I think your S/L is more accurate if you play several times a week vs. playing once a week on league night and sometimes not even that much.
I imagine that would be one effective way to sandbag, play just enough to be eligible for everything, "soft play" lower ranked opponents when you do play, and don't show your true speed until you absolutely have to

 

[lorider]

I think allot of it depends on how often you play a league match. I think your S/L is more accurate if you play several times a week vs. playing once a week on league night and sometimes not even that much.
I imagine that would be one effective way to sandbag, play just enough to be eligible for everything, "soft play" lower ranked opponents when you do play, and don't show your true speed until you absolutely have to

Well that once a week description sure dont fit me. Besides I never coulda sandbagged anyway. Until last session I played on 2 different handicapped teams with my lo for over a year and on my 3 rx session playing with him on a masters team.

I just dropped Wednesday night but still play Tuesday...Thursday...Friday and Sunday.

Sunday is for 3 different divisions. .....scotch doubles.....double jeopardy and once a month masters. Luckily they are all at the same pool hall. Dang new like a mini tournament. I am there from 1:00 in the afternoon until 11:00 or 12:00 that night.

 

[Ken_4fun]

I think you would typically find stronger players in larger populations.

I was league top gun last session, and I am not the best player in the league.

Maybe not in the top 10%.

Ken

 

[pogmothoin]

I might be crazy and just a dreamer but I think that if the "Handi Capping System" really worked then it wouldn't matter where you were from (taking sandbagging out of the equation).

If you are a 3 ball runner who doesn't safety on their own consistently should be one SL than a 4 ball runner.

If everything is noted correctly, I think it would be much more even in all regions...

Where the Equalizer System seems to take a turn from a true national system based just on your playing ability is in the use of what has been called "applied scoring". My understanding of applied scoring is a maximum number of innings you can score in a match based on your current skill level and winning percentage. So if you're a 5 who wins 50% of your matches perhaps your minimum score might be 3.5 innings per game even if you player 6 innings per game. If you're winning percentage is 80% perhaps that number is 3.2. Easy to go up, very difficult to go down in that type of system.

How this affects skill levels in different leagues was explained to me as follows.

Two players of the exact same ability play in two different leagues. Let's say that they play like a solid S/L 5. League A is full of very good players so player 1 struggles to win and has a losing record. He stays a 5 but can't win enough to move up.

Player 2 plays in league B, a weak overall league. He is one of the strongest players in the league. His winning percentage is very high because he plays weak players often. He goes up to a 6.

if these 2 players ever meet at a higher level tournament there's a good chance player 2 will think player 1 has an incorrect handicap.

At least that how it was explained to me. So there really isn't a true national rating because it's based on local results that can be skewed by variations in player ability.

 

[Skippy27]

With that said its just surprising that the 4 people that have moved here from other regions in the last 6 months have been weaker than players here with the same handicap. Maybe its just my bad luck that I am the one that wind up with weak players from other areas rather than strong ones lol.

Could be, but I am going to guess it also has to do with defensive marks.

I play in 2 different areas now, 1 of them mark defensive a lot more consistently across all teams than the other area which a vast majority of the players mark almost no defensive shots unless they are explicitly told to do so by the player that shot, which is quite rare. As a result, I believe we have many under rated players in the other area and they probably consider me an overrated player.

 

[mvp]

There is so much sandbagging/handicap management going on! I don't think you can compare regions, but bigger the populations usually = better players

 

[Skippy27]

There is so much sandbagging/handicap management going on! I don't think you can compare regions, but bigger the populations usually = better players

Not sure if you read much of this thread, but I would recommend you go back to one of my original post (first page I believe) about me playing people all over from big cities to small towns from here and Canada. I would greatly disagree with your sandbagging/handicap management statement. Does it happen? Sure, and some do get away with it. But it is not as large scale nationally as so many, such as yourself, claim it is. Which would bring me to the point that if people sandbag around you, it is because you and everyone else allow it to happen with poor score keeping.

 

[Scott Lee]

Skippy27....Tap, tap, tap! Great post. Sandbagging in the APA is nowhere near as "rampant" as some posters would have us believe...and as your correctly noted, cannot happen without the express consent (or lazy scorekeeping) of both teams. Glad you had such a positive experience in Vegas! :thumbup:

Scott Lee
http://poolknowledge.com

Not sure if you read much of this thread, but I would recommend you go back to one of my original post (first page I believe) about me playing people all over from big cities to small towns from here and Canada. I would greatly disagree with your sandbagging/handicap management statement. Does it happen? Sure, and some do get away with it. But it is not as large scale nationally as so many, such as yourself, claim it is. Which would bring me to the point that if people sandbag around you, it is because you and everyone else allow it to happen with poor score keeping.

 

[JC]

Don't know anything about APA but my observations in BCA are that every player rated about the same as me seems to do some things way better than I do and I never seem to notice the things I do better if they indeed exist. I'm a 606 Fargo and got drilled by a 610 I had never met before in a 9 ball tournament. He actually helped me with some things afterwards, out of pity I believe. Later on that day my friend and teammate who's a 570 beat the same guy handily in the same tournament.

So it has to be more than playing the table. Match ups do matter.

JC

 

[ctyhntr]

I nominate this as sensible post of the year.

Not sure if you read much of this thread, but I would recommend you go back to one of my original post (first page I believe) about me playing people all over from big cities to small towns from here and Canada. I would greatly disagree with your sandbagging/handicap management statement. Does it happen? Sure, and some do get away with it. But it is not as large scale nationally as so many, such as yourself, claim it is. Which would bring me to the point that if people sandbag around you, it is because you and everyone else allow it to happen with poor score keeping.

 

[lorider]

I think you would typically find stronger players in larger populations.

I was league top gun last session, and I am not the best player in the league.

Maybe not in the top 10%.

Ken

Congrats on your achievement.

Under the old scoring system I was always in 1st place but I dont take stock in top gun standings any more because the pints reflect more on who you pls rather than how well you play..

I pulled stats on 3 s/l 5's on my team. Now in theory a 5 should be a 5 should be a 5 but that is not true..

Here are the stats.

Sunday night 9 ball

5.a 6-4 record 9.9 points avg 9 th place
5.b 8-3 record.12.45 points avg. 2nd place
5.c 4-4 record. 9.25 points avg. 11 th place

Thursday 9 ball

5 a 5-5 record. 9.9 points avg 19 th place
5.b 6-7 record 11.25 points avg. 9 th place
5 c 9-6 record 11.0. Points avg. 7 th place

Looking at those stats ....5.b has the best overall record as for standings in top gun with 5.c not far behind with 5 a having the worst record. If you based your opinion of each players playing ability strictly on those stats you would be way off.

What you dont know.


5. C plays mostly 4's and below. Recently he played a 6 and Lost 18-2 and last night lost to a 5 16-4 .. 5.a has beat both opponents several times and has never lost by more than 12-8

5.b plays mostly 5's and recently played a 7 losing 18-2 and Las week lost 14-6 to a 4. 5a has beat the 7 a few times and has never lost by more than 12-8. He also has never Los to the above mentioned 4

5.a is the captain and its his job to match players up to where the team wins....hopefully lol . 5.a plays mostly 6's and up winning approximately half ....which the equalizer system is designed to do and hardly ever losing worse than 12-8 thereby keeping his team in contention all session long.

As you van see by the above info....too gun finishes can be misleading in determining a players true ability.

 

[master_cueist]

So I've been playing for a little over 10 years and am a AA/AAA in VNEA leagues. I am well known in my area and never hold back my speed to anybody so my ability is well known. Well I joined an APA team for the very first time this session. Almost immediately there was controversy because men are supposed to start as a 4 for their very first week and people were not happy so they called the LO and he made me start as a 6 and claimed it wasn't fair to automatically start someone as a 7.

I was very unfamiliar with how the handicap system works so when I think of a 6 or 7 in eight ball I imagine a "top player". So when they put me up against another 6 I had it in my mind I was going to be playing another strong player who would be used to winning big matches in big ways. Now to the point of this story associated with your post, I very quickly realized that I FAR out-classed this other 6 as I broke dry the first two games and he couldn't get out on the easiest of racks on a bar box and didn't have a very good knowledge of safety play. I then broke and ran the last 3 racks of our race to 5 and he was livid and couldn't believe that anybody could do that. I will be a 7 next week obviously.

I like the idea of the APA rank format but it should somehow be amended to better rate players. There is no way on earth that a B ranked player in VNEA should be playing someone even up that out ranks them by 2 or 3 levels in another league. In my current session there should only be a handful, maybe 4 or 5 players that should be a 7, myself included, but there are tons of them. A few should probably be a 6 but most are maybe a 5 in my opinion or even a 4. That is just not fair to most of them. I understand it's a "beginner league" but it shouldn't be that easy to advance up the ranks. Just my .02

 

[Celophanewrap]

So I've been playing for a little over 10 years and am a AA/AAA in VNEA leagues. I am well known in my area and never hold back my speed to anybody so my ability is well known. Well I joined an APA team for the very first time this session. Almost immediately there was controversy because men are supposed to start as a 4 for their very first week and people were not happy so they called the LO and he made me start as a 6 and claimed it wasn't fair to automatically start someone as a 7.

I was very unfamiliar with how the handicap system works so when I think of a 6 or 7 in eight ball I imagine a "top player". So when they put me up against another 6 I had it in my mind I was going to be playing another strong player who would be used to winning big matches in big ways. Now to the point of this story associated with your post, I very quickly realized that I FAR out-classed this other 6 as I broke dry the first two games and he couldn't get out on the easiest of racks on a bar box and didn't have a very good knowledge of safety play. I then broke and ran the last 3 racks of our race to 5 and he was livid and couldn't believe that anybody could do that. I will be a 7 next week obviously.

I like the idea of the APA rank format but it should somehow be amended to better rate players. There is no way on earth that a B ranked player in VNEA should be playing someone even up that out ranks them by 2 or 3 levels in another league. In my current session there should only be a handful, maybe 4 or 5 players that should be a 7, myself included, but there are tons of them. A few should probably be a 6 but most are maybe a 5 in my opinion or even a 4. That is just not fair to most of them. I understand it's a "beginner league" but it shouldn't be that easy to advance up the ranks. Just my .02

One of the things that go into determining a skill level is win percentage. I don't know where in Colorado you are but if the 6 that you faced is really that mediocre it's likely his history is one of facing lower level players, or he is really one of the better APA players in a relatively small area and has achieved a good win percentage that way.

I think this is an example of a a player who has "topped out" of the APA system, although he has only just started in the APA. I suspect soon (after a few more complaints) it's possible that you'll be given the fictitious "Super 7" status and have to give up a little more weight, even to another 7 in your area.

It's true that a new (male) player is supposed to start out as a 4. However the team manual provides that as a known player you can be rated higher.

I imagine that soon you'll find that you are playing many 2's and 3's and you be bored to death and that will be the end your APA experience

 

[skip100]

So I've been playing for a little over 10 years and am a AA/AAA in VNEA leagues. I am well known in my area and never hold back my speed to anybody so my ability is well known. Well I joined an APA team for the very first time this session. Almost immediately there was controversy because men are supposed to start as a 4 for their very first week and people were not happy so they called the LO and he made me start as a 6 and claimed it wasn't fair to automatically start someone as a 7.

I was very unfamiliar with how the handicap system works so when I think of a 6 or 7 in eight ball I imagine a "top player". So when they put me up against another 6 I had it in my mind I was going to be playing another strong player who would be used to winning big matches in big ways. Now to the point of this story associated with your post, I very quickly realized that I FAR out-classed this other 6 as I broke dry the first two games and he couldn't get out on the easiest of racks on a bar box and didn't have a very good knowledge of safety play. I then broke and ran the last 3 racks of our race to 5 and he was livid and couldn't believe that anybody could do that. I will be a 7 next week obviously.

I like the idea of the APA rank format but it should somehow be amended to better rate players. There is no way on earth that a B ranked player in VNEA should be playing someone even up that out ranks them by 2 or 3 levels in another league. In my current session there should only be a handful, maybe 4 or 5 players that should be a 7, myself included, but there are tons of them. A few should probably be a 6 but most are maybe a 5 in my opinion or even a 4. That is just not fair to most of them. I understand it's a "beginner league" but it shouldn't be that easy to advance up the ranks. Just my .02

This is an interesting post and you're not wrong, but the fact is that despite the wide range of ability that can result in a 7 rating, 7's are few and far between in APA. Adding a "super 7" or 8 level would affect a tiny sliver of the membership because there just aren't very many 7's, and even fewer players who can put together packages. Most of the 7's are weak compared to you and still have winning records because they have tactical and strategic advantages compared to lower SL players.

And really, anyone who can run a 3-pack is going to get bored in APA - and fast.

 

[Matt]

For a handicapping system that is meant to account for discrepancies in playing conditions and competition levels across the country (and some other countries), I think the APA Equalizer does a pretty good job. There are, however a few shortcomings that I noticed during the years of APA league I played in.

First, the lack of differentiation at the high end of the handicaps. Most 7/9's would just as well play each other even and usually gravitate to a masters division if there is one, but in the handicapped divisions, a weak 7/9 is just a burden on their team because they use up so many of the allotted skill level points aren't much more likely to win than a 6. The be valuable as a 7/9, you have to play well enough that you are winning well over half of your matches (I would even say over 75%).

Another weakness of the system is that it attempt to compensate for the playing conditions, but only takes the table size into account. That doesn't account for the pocket size, cloth or ball conditions, etc. Generally speaking, teams that play on tougher equipment are going to be a little better within their ranks that the team that doesn't.

My last major complaint about the system brings me back to the scorekeeper. The system relies on defenses being marked to calculate the effective number of innings per rack, so a league that does a poor job of marking defenses will tend to have under-ranked players.

All that considered, I still think that the equalizer system works well for most of the APAs members and I had a good time playing in the league for years. Once I reached my personal goals of topping out the handicaps in the regular divisions, I switched to only playing masters for a while, but that kind of fizzled out when they started the junior masters and stuck them in the same divisions with masters teams, so now I just play in an in-house cash league that does a better job of accommodating higher ranked players. Even though APA isn't really for me anymore, I still recommend it to players just looking to have a good time and learn to play.

 

[pogmothoin]

So I've been playing for a little over 10 years and am a AA/AAA in VNEA leagues. I am well known in my area and never hold back my speed to anybody so my ability is well known. Well I joined an APA team for the very first time this session. Almost immediately there was controversy because men are supposed to start as a 4 for their very first week and people were not happy so they called the LO and he made me start as a 6 and claimed it wasn't fair to automatically start someone as a 7.

I was very unfamiliar with how the handicap system works so when I think of a 6 or 7 in eight ball I imagine a "top player". So when they put me up against another 6 I had it in my mind I was going to be playing another strong player who would be used to winning big matches in big ways. Now to the point of this story associated with your post, I very quickly realized that I FAR out-classed this other 6 as I broke dry the first two games and he couldn't get out on the easiest of racks on a bar box and didn't have a very good knowledge of safety play. I then broke and ran the last 3 racks of our race to 5 and he was livid and couldn't believe that anybody could do that. I will be a 7 next week obviously.

I like the idea of the APA rank format but it should somehow be amended to better rate players. There is no way on earth that a B ranked player in VNEA should be playing someone even up that out ranks them by 2 or 3 levels in another league. In my current session there should only be a handful, maybe 4 or 5 players that should be a 7, myself included, but there are tons of them. A few should probably be a 6 but most are maybe a 5 in my opinion or even a 4. That is just not fair to most of them. I understand it's a "beginner league" but it shouldn't be that easy to advance up the ranks. Just my .02

I think you have discovered the secret of the APA. Quick advancement for undeserving players. Players are happy they can boast about being a whatever high number and the LO is happy because the higher up you go the more likely you'll need to start another team. So what if you run out once a year. You win so you must be a 7.

My frustration level is high today. New session, teammates being raised so we can no longer afford to remain together as a team. The applied scoring thing is a flat out scam. Players who can't win 40% of their matches and when they do it takes 9 inning a game should not be a 3.

 

[Skippy27]

So I've been playing for a little over 10 years and am a AA/AAA in VNEA leagues. I am well known in my area and never hold back my speed to anybody so my ability is well known. Well I joined an APA team for the very first time this session. Almost immediately there was controversy because men are supposed to start as a 4 for their very first week and people were not happy so they called the LO and he made me start as a 6 and claimed it wasn't fair to automatically start someone as a 7.

I was very unfamiliar with how the handicap system works so when I think of a 6 or 7 in eight ball I imagine a "top player". So when they put me up against another 6 I had it in my mind I was going to be playing another strong player who would be used to winning big matches in big ways. Now to the point of this story associated with your post, I very quickly realized that I FAR out-classed this other 6 as I broke dry the first two games and he couldn't get out on the easiest of racks on a bar box and didn't have a very good knowledge of safety play. I then broke and ran the last 3 racks of our race to 5 and he was livid and couldn't believe that anybody could do that. I will be a 7 next week obviously.

I like the idea of the APA rank format but it should somehow be amended to better rate players. There is no way on earth that a B ranked player in VNEA should be playing someone even up that out ranks them by 2 or 3 levels in another league. In my current session there should only be a handful, maybe 4 or 5 players that should be a 7, myself included, but there are tons of them. A few should probably be a 6 but most are maybe a 5 in my opinion or even a 4. That is just not fair to most of them. I understand it's a "beginner league" but it shouldn't be that easy to advance up the ranks. Just my .02

There are 2 things wrong here.
1. You thinking that any rating system is going to be good for a player with ZERO games.
2. Your team should have started you as a 7 if they knew you would be a 7. So it is your captains fault for not doing so. There was not even a need to call the LO and I am guessing that was only done because of some crap being pulled.

We had the same thing happen once with a player that never played apa but everyone knew he was a good player and definitely a 7, so that is what he started at and now almost 2 years later he is still a 7.

 

[Skippy27]

I think you have discovered the secret of the APA. Quick advancement for undeserving players. Players are happy they can boast about being a whatever high number and the LO is happy because the higher up you go the more likely you'll need to start another team. So what if you run out once a year. You win so you must be a 7.

My frustration level is high today. New session, teammates being raised so we can no longer afford to remain together as a team. The applied scoring thing is a flat out scam. Players who can't win 40% of their matches and when they do it takes 9 inning a game should not be a 3.

How many innings would you say a 3 averages in a match and how many defensive shots? How many coaches do they use?

It is funny to see you here complaining about players ranking up when they don't deserve it when 99.9% of this thread is people whining about players not moving up when they should.

 

[lorider]

There are 2 things wrong here.
1. You thinking that any rating system is going to be good for a player with ZERO games.
2. Your team should have started you as a 7 if they knew you would be a 7. So it is your captains fault for not doing so. There was not even a need to call the LO and I am guessing that was only done because of some crap being pulled.

We had the same thing happen once with a player that never played apa but everyone knew he was a good player and definitely a 7, so that is what he started at and now almost 2 years later he is still a 7.

We have had a difference of opinion several times Skippy but I would like to say that I agreed with your excellent response to the poster that complained about sandbagging.

Now back to our normal difference of opinions. :wink:

You seem to enjoy apa about as much as i do but you also seem to get bent out of shape easily over rules ...or lack of such.

A while back on the 1st night of a new season the team we were facing picked up a player new to apa. Although the opposing captain claimed she did not know how well he played I knew him quite well as we had played on the same money league team a few years prior. He definitely was not a 4. I told her that he was at less a 6 if not a 7. She reminded me that all new players start as a 4 and I reminded her that did not apply to known players . After a lil back and forth she said she was willing to start him as a 5.

I agreed to let him start as a 5 for several reasons although I knew he was better than that..

1..i hate drama. All I want to do is go shoot pool and enjoy myself. I dont want to get into a debate ...or argument with an opposing captain on what a players handicap should or should not be.

2. I don't want to be known as one of those that call the lo complaining about some ones handicap like what happened to me the 1st night I played apa.

3. I believe that handicap system works....as long as proper score keeping is applied.

4. It was the 1st night of a new session and it did not matter if he put a butt whipping on me or one of my team mates as one loss will not ruin a session.

Btw...he was raised to a 7 the following week and no.harm came to my team as a result of me not getting into a pissing contest when I knew darn well what his handicap would be.

You might be a nice guy Skippy but you remind me of a captain on my Sunday division that nobody like because he is constantly throwing the rule book in every ones face every chance he gets.

I love beating the crap out of his team and he constantly cries about me being a sand bagger .i also loved it when he tried to pull a fast one on me and I threw the rule book in his face and he knew I had let other teams slide over the 23 rule and replay policy our by laws have.

So Skippy....let your hair down....drink a beer ....dont sweat the small stuff.....except at tri cups or higher and just enjoy playing pool .

 

[pogmothoin]

How many innings would you say a 3 averages in a match and how many defensive shots? How many coaches do they use?

It is funny to see you here complaining about players ranking up when they don't deserve it when 99.9% of this thread is people whining about players not moving up when they should.

3 - 5.01 - 7 innings per game

Defensive shots get deducted from total innings at the end of the match. Timeouts have no impact on the rating.

I don't care what a player is rated at as long as it accurately reflects their ability. If the APA system says a 3 is between 5.01 and 7 innings then that is what I expect. Anyone can have a bad match or a great match at any given time. The APA allows for this by using the 10 best of your last 20, or 12 of your last 30. Which is great, that's a fair representation of a persons ability. Where it goes off the rails is the use of applied scoring. Making it very difficult for a player to go down.

When a player deserves to go up that's great. But when a player only has 2 or 3 matches that score out to the next level and applied scoring is responsible for the rest then that's a problem. That's where you see weak players and it's especially true at a S/L 7 where someone who runs 1 rack a session is rated the same as someone who runs 3 racks in a match.