Hardinge Secondary Operations Tool Room Lathe Modified for Cue Making!

[scdiveteam]

Hi,

I am selling a very special lathe that has been modified for Cue Making. Here is a detailed history of the lathe, the modifications and maintence upgrades.

It is located in Las Vegas for inspection and pick up only. The Price is $ 6500.00 COD!

I bought this tool room secondary operations turret lathe from the Jeff Prather and his Dad 9 years ago.

I sent the headstock to NY and had the bearings redone for 2900 bucks plus shipping. It runs dead zero from the factory at any speed. It has never been used since for any work.

I had a machinist build a custom extension on the back of the spindle bore with a 600.00 unique big bore for the back chuck with delriln self adjusting internal paws.

For pin instalation you can place the butt in through the rear spindle and collet chuck it up on the joint, hold it in the back chuck and use the turret to center drill, drill, bore, tap and counter sink very fast and very accurately using the turret feature. The back chuck lands in the back 1/3 rd of the wrap area in this configuration.

Then you can also install the shaft into the chuck from the bed side and center drill, drill, bore and tap with a tapamatic. At dead zero. The Unique big bore back chuck will adjust to 1.375 or down to 11.7 mm shaft.

I did not buy the tapamatic, so not included.

I bought this unit when I had the mindset to do some production. But after retiring and moving to Vegas my plans changed and I decided to make only one or two cues per month at most and did not want to work too long each day.

At 69 and retired, I spend more time now playing jazz piano, working on and sailing my sailboat and persuing my life long passion for flying these days. Cue Making was never a job for me only an Art Interest.

So I have not really tried to sell the lathe. When I brought it back to Chicago from Oklahoma before doing the bearings and hot rod cue making up grades, Joey Gold offered me 5 grand on the spot as is!

Since I have no use for a production secondary lathe these days, I would consider selling it for 6500 dollars which is the exact amount I have invested in it. A smoking deal if someone wants to drive to Vegas. These lathes went for upward over 25k I am told.

If I do sell it, the buyer would have to back up a trailer in my garage here in Vegas where I have reinforced the roof trusses and have a chain fall rigged for lifting. I won't ship it! If you want to ship it, we can lower it onto and secure it onto a HD Pallet for a shipper you contract. No problem!

The lathe is buried in the back of my cue shop which is located behind my house.

To move that lathe to my garage would take me two days to move as i also have to move other machinery out, then to get a portable engine hoist back there and place it on my 6 caster lathe cart I built. So then I could move it to the garage out in front. Then re install my shop.

So I was planning to do this at some point this year. I knew a few years ago I was going to sell it, I have just been lazy.

Here are some pics. There is a video showing the lathe running at 1800 rpm and it is indicated on the outside of the chuck so there is a very slight wiggle within the zero line due to the chrome finish is not a ground dowel rod! If i had a dowel pin in a collet these lathes are accurate to 5 numbers with brand new bearings. The lathe is running and fully operational in my shop and i also have a 220v outlet in my garage if need be!

I also bought a brand new phase converter and had an electrictrician mount it in a wall box for 450 bucks total job in 2021. The micro switches in the controller box were changed also.

It can be set up to do many other operations also.

If you do production cue making, I don't think you a can do pins and machine shaft threading faster or more accurate than this set up with out going to a programed CNC lathe.

If you are a serious interested party, call me on the phone and I will be happy to discuss all the details at length.

Do not PM me or text me because I only wish to talk to serious interested potential buyers who understand what a smoking deal this is and understands what Hardinge lathes are all about. So please, no low ballers or tire kickers.

Rick Geschrey
Esoteric Cue
847 641 0276 between 6 am and 12 pm West Coast time.

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[Ssonerai]

That is an interesting tailstock chuck integrated with the nose collets?
There is some real value in that if it repeats.
My primary cue lathes are Hardinge second ops.

... you can also install the shaft into the chuck from the bed side and center drill, drill, bore and tap with a tapamatic. At dead zero.

True that - in metal. I do it routinely when making hundreds of hardware parts off the bar with a pneumatic bar feeder. However, for cue making, i don't think it is a good idea. Caveat would be do the first ops under power, then bring up the tap and turn the spindle by hand while feeding it. With practice you could probably get good enough to use power, but i would practice on scrap dowels. Again, this is familiar to me. Not guessing here.

Or can set up live tooling!

OK, you are going to have to explain that?
I do have a couple split bed second-ops with threading, but it is not an option on yours (No T-slot back rail on the bed casting)
So explain feeding the "live tooling" or show the attachments if you are going to claim it?

The Unique big bore back chuck will adjust to 1.375 or down to 11.7 mm shaft.

Please explain or show more detail - I might want to copy it.

I did not buy the tapamatic, so not included.

I've got at least a half dozen of those and some Geometrics for external. Not confident how applicable to cue making. The value of a Tapmatic or similar other brand is the reversing when you reverse the lever when used in a drill press or milling machine. That does not work on a lathe (from the turret). Though the other function, adjustable torque can. OTOH, some of the most effective tap drivers for turret work are simply releasing tap holders, which tend to be cheaper.

A pull start junk 3ph motor works fine for a convertor.

Good luck with it. I think the Hardinge second-op building block platform is phenomenal for all kinds of manufacturing, and manifestly, industry did too, until cnc came along. However, i've bought at least a half dozen of those old split-bed Hardinges for around $150 to $250 each.
Most expensive was $350, metal cabinet base like yours, with a modern round turret, not the old Hex version.
(I do have a Hex turret like yours as well, swapped among lathes as needed, but it came with one of the $150 lathes.
The DV- versions (Later dovetail beds) tend to go for between $1,000 to $3,000 for a really pristine one, depending on tooling.

I suppose yours is "worth" some premium over a basic old split-bed because in some sense you are warranteeing that everything works.
I've never met one that had a spindle problem, but it could occur. OTOH, on that age machine, collet closers that need attention are not unusual, Hex turrets that don't index cleanly or are missing some of the limit screws, etc.

Original spec for bearings from Hardinge was 25 millionths.
So they age very well before you can ever detect any runout that is not due to dings/scratches on the spindle. The collet faces (internal) of the spindle can sometimes eventually wear tri-lobed.

smt

 

[Ssonerai]

Not to keep beating on this, but since my ski instructor classes were canceled today due to lack of snow/soggy conditions making me a little cranky

No seriously, since i often suggest Hardinge second ops as cheap building block platforms, it is important to me to be clear about some of the limitations that have to be worked beyond, to get convenient use.

(from above):

I had a machinist build a custom extension on the back of the spindle bore with a 600.00 unique big bore for the back chuck with delriln self adjusting internal paws.

For pin instalation you can place the butt in through the rear spindle and collet chuck it up on the joint, hold it in the back chuck and use the turret to center drill, drill, bore, tap and counter sink very fast and very accurately using the turret feature. The back chuck lands in the back 1/3 rd of the wrap area in this configuration.

Depends how skinny you make your butts.
With the outboard chuck attached to the collet tube as shown in the pix provided by OP, the max that will fit through the collet tube is 1-1/16"/1.062". I believe Hardinge nominal is 1.09"/1-3/32", but at that size you will be hammering it in and scarring something. This means at a point starting about 2" outboard from the collet closer lever.

If you remove the collet tube completely & also file or remove the stock 5c collet pin in the nose, 1-1/4" dia. will just fit through a stock bore.
This is why i built an add-on nose collet chuck for mine, so it can be used without the collet tube in the way for butts. Jacobs rubberflex collet system shown will pass 1-1/2". Original 5c will just pass 1-1/32" & will work fine with shafts as Rick notes. Of course i also use adjustru or 4jaw standard chucks on the nose and on the outboard positions at times. Whatever gives the most repeatable precision and convenience. (Outboard chuck in these photos has plywood top jaws. Worked, but kind of a failed experiment for repeatability. Gonna try plastic at some point since i ended up with a pile of it from an auction)

Photos show 2 different Hardinge based lathes. The one set up on my veneer-press I-beam for length is my primary cue lathe & cue finishing lathe, but i sometimes use the other, and also a small South Bend for threading or live threading. As mentioned other places, all my tapering and profiling is done on a metal planer. 60" FS bocote/curly pyinma sneaky.

 

[scdiveteam]

On this Hardinge Lathe with this custom rear assembly for cues:

Any Standard Cue will fit thru the spindle bore, chuck up in the collet, and be held in the Unique Big Bore Chuck in the back.

The rear Unique chuck opens to 1.375 when doing the pin in the butt and when the shaft in inserted from the bed side, that rear chuck will go to under 12 mm to accomadate the end of the shaft.

 

[Ssonerai]

Any Standard Cue will fit thru the spindle bore, chuck up in the collet, and be held in the Unique Big Bore Chuck in the back.

As i mentioned, that is absolutely correct for shafts.

AFA butts:
Have you done so?

What actuates the collet in the nose?
Is it a nylon 5c collet (commonly available) or is it something else, and again, if something else, what closes it?

All of the parts you show in photos including the (old style/plain-bearing collet closer and lever) are stock Hardinge
If the tube is in place as shown, no way is more than 1-1/16" going through it. Regardless the outboard chuck could hold larger by itself.

Can you slip the outboard collet parts off including the lever, closer, tube, and the detente index ring and measure the spindle bore?
Unscrew/remove the nose collet, remove the lever pin, and the rest should slide out as a unit.

smt

 

[scdiveteam]

My joint is .850
The butt is 1.125

Both the shaft and butt fit from both direction!

 

[Dave38]

As i mentioned, that is absolutely correct for shafts.

AFA butts:
Have you done so?

What actuates the collet in the nose?
Is it a nylon 5c collet (commonly available) or is it something else, and again, if something else, what closes it?

All of the parts you show in photos including the (old style/plain-bearing collet closer and lever) are stock Hardinge
If the tube is in place as shown, no way is more than 1-1/16" going through it. Regardless the outboard chuck could hold larger by itself.

Can you slip the outboard collet parts off including the lever, closer, tube, and the detente index ring and measure the spindle bore?
Unscrew/remove the nose collet, remove the lever pin, and the rest should slide out as a unit.

smt

I doubt he will address all (if any) of your questions.....based on previous episodes with this individual. IMHO, anyone interested in buying this SHOULD go see it in person as that's the only way to know for sure what he is really selling.....he tends to embellish at times

 

[JoeyInCali]

What's the distance from rear chuck to the face of the collet?
It looks like the butt will helicopter at the rear.

 

[scdiveteam]

It runs perfectly true. The back chuck engages the wrap area about 1" forward of the rear wrap step groove when the joint is held in the collet.

 

[scdiveteam]

I doubt he will address all (if any) of your questions.....based on previous episodes with this individual. IMHO, anyone interested in buying this SHOULD go see it in person as that's the only way to know for sure what he is really selling.....he tends to embellish at times

If Ssonerai is an interested buyer he can give me a call for a one on one oconversation. I made that very clear in my offering. If he not interested as a buyer and just wans to comment here, that's OK!

BTW, if giving a detailed description is embellishment, i am always going to be that guy and i plead guilty. Sorry if that bothers you Dave. My sincere apologies buddy!

Anyone who may be interested in Buying or Inspecting this Custom Set Up and needs questions answered can call me directly.

Rick Geschrey
Esoteric Cue
847 641 0276

 

[Ssonerai]

If Ssonerai is an interested buyer he can give me a call for a one on one oconversation. I made that very clear in my offering. If he not interested as a buyer and just wans to comment here, that's OK!

Thank you.

Anyone who may be interested in Buying or Inspecting this Custom Set Up and needs questions answered can call me directly.

A picture really is worth quite a lot of words.
The pix you posted seem to clearly show that the unrestricted through-the-spindle capacity is not what you state.
So the best resolution is to pull the outboard chuck & collet tube assembly, and take some clear photos with a relevant measuring indicator, of the *relevant* details if you think my summary of your posted pictures so far is incorrect.

 

[DeeDeeCues]

Thank you.



A picture really is worth quite a lot of words.
The pix you posted seem to clearly show that the unrestricted through-the-spindle capacity is not what you state.
So the best resolution is to pull the outboard chuck & collet tube assembly, and take some clear photos with a relevant measuring indicator, of the *relevant* details if you think my summary of your posted pictures so far is incorrect.

You have a wealth of knowledge, but I'm not sure I agree with this being the correct thread to share it. The questions you are asking should be asked by any interested buyer.

I looked at adapting one of these lathes for cue making and I couldn't justify the work that would have gone into one when I could have picked it up for six hundred. They hold incredible tolerances, but it will always be a second op lathe.

These lathes were made to do a few repetitive processes on parts.

This is a machine that any potential buyer had better be very well informed.

 

[JoeyInCali]

You have a wealth of knowledge, but I'm not sure I agree with this being the correct thread to share it. The questions you are asking should be asked by any interested buyer.

I looked at adapting one of these lathes for cue making and I couldn't justify the work that would have gone into one when I could have picked it up for six hundred. They hold incredible tolerances, but it will always be a second op lathe.

These lathes were made to do a few repetitive processes on parts.

This is a machine that any potential buyer had better be very well informed.

Should have stopped after the first paragraph

 

[DeeDeeCues]

Should have stopped after the first paragraph

Probably.

 

[slim123]

Why do you people here continually do this? I truly believe, no one here ( that has criticized the thread) has any interest in buying what is for sale here. However, this post brought out the haters and the know-it-alls. Why do most of you here only criticize, and share very little info to help?

This is machinery or material for sale post, IMHO, if you have no interest, don't show your ass.

 

[Ssonerai]

I'm not sure I agree with this being the correct thread to share it.

You are correct & I was probably a little thin-skinned.
For those that have not seen the back story or think it is about "haters" here is a sequence which if not directly implicated, has some relevance.

A post was made on ask the cuemaker about "The perfect cue building lathe" with a somewhat theoretical/imagine the best combination of features. I commented/answered that post as i have referred peripherally in the past. Hardinge 2nd op lathes are a potentially inexpensive basic building block system to get started with in my experience. Some of the items that would need changed or added to, to make it a slam-dunk were noted. At the price these usually sell for, they are nice starter lathes that can do quite a bit of work on shafts, and with minor mods, on most butts; so long as live threading is not involved. And so long as the lathe is not the primary taper machine. Many people start out doing repairs, or building cues from components such as Prather, and don't need a lot more to start. When you get into it deeper, the 2nd op is moved to a back corner for all sorts of convenient support work, and an engine lathe with threading is acquired.

Within that same week, (Jan 2 my last post there, Jan 7 above, here) the OP here was made offering a Hardinge 2nd op FS extolling a "very special Hardinge" reputed to be modified in a way that does not seem likely on the face of it. The OP backpedaled upon me pointing out some details, as obviously being impossible. He doubled down on other factors that still seem in question, and would be easy to resolve. Quite basically the OP made an infomercial on an open forum, not a simple FS ad. He made extensive claims that even he realized were incorrect in follow-up posts. I try to avoid commenting even on infomercials, but feel that in reality they are/should be fair game.

I realize i am nobody here, and barely a cuemaker in terms of production. However as a (wood forum) mod on a site that bills itself as the largest machining forum in the world, i did not want my posts on the Hardinge subject to be any possible influence without an understanding that there are caveats.

It is true as this has played out, anyone reading it will have enough info to ask their own questions, & I will refrain from adding more.

smt

 

[slim123]

You are correct & I was probably a little thin-skinned.
For those that have not seen the back story or think it is about "haters" here is a sequence which if not directly implicated, has some relevance.

A post was made on ask the cuemaker about "The perfect cue building lathe" with a somewhat theoretical/imagine the best combination of features. I commented/answered that post as i have referred peripherally in the past. Hardinge 2nd op lathes are a potentially inexpensive basic building block system to get started with in my experience. Some of the items that would need changed or added to, to make it a slam-dunk were noted. At the price these usually sell for, they are nice starter lathes that can do quite a bit of work on shafts, and with minor mods, on most butts; so long as live threading is not involved. And so long as the lathe is not the primary taper machine. Many people start out doing repairs, or building cues from components such as Prather, and don't need a lot more to start. When you get into it deeper, the 2nd op is moved to a back corner for all sorts of convenient support work, and an engine lathe with threading is acquired.

Within that same week, (Jan 2 my last post there, Jan 7 above, here) the OP here was made offering a Hardinge 2nd op FS extolling a "very special Hardinge" reputed to be modified in a way that does not seem likely on the face of it. The OP backpedaled upon me pointing out some details, as obviously being impossible. He doubled down on other factors that still seem in question, and would be easy to resolve. Quite basically the OP made an infomercial on an open forum, not a simple FS ad. He made extensive claims that even he realized were incorrect in follow-up posts. I try to avoid commenting even on infomercials, but feel that in reality they are/should be fair game.

I realize i am nobody here, and barely a cuemaker in terms of production. However as a (wood forum) mod on a site that bills itself as the largest machining forum in the world, i did not want my posts on the Hardinge subject to be any possible influence without an understanding that there are caveats.

It is true as this has played out, anyone reading it will have enough info to ask their own questions, & I will refrain from adding more.

smt

Dude, don't confront a seller on the open grill, might be costly. If you have no interest go away. You are wearing a lot of us thin reading your paragraphs
Granted you know a lot, and we all are enlighted with what you can teach,
However, this machine and material post is not the place for you to show your knowledge
Don't Be A Karen

 

[DeeDeeCues]

your long lengthy paragraphs are wearing all of us thin

Not all of us. @Ssonerai is crazy knowledgeable. Perhaps the wrong venue, but this isn't the for sale forum which prohibits the discussion here.

 

[slim123]

Not all of us. @Ssonerai is crazy knowledgeable. Perhaps the wrong venue, but this isn't the for sale forum which prohibits the discussion here.

Please excuse me you are correct
Sorry small undetectable error with AI