Is the Cue Market Dead Now and Forever?

macguy

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
The reason for that is in addition to it being a very well made cue with a rich history behind it South West Cues will not compromise itself. They truly do have a 10-12 year wait and will not let anyone sponge to the front of the line when $ is waved at them.
We have all heard stories how some top tier Cuemakers will slide someone in if they are willing to pay a big buck for a cue.

Why should someone pay a secondary mark up when they can offer it to the cue maker for a new cue. You can't do that with SW you either wait 10-12 years or buy one on the secondary market at the going price.
Didn't SW used to have a dealer named Vince who always had cues you could just buy? I have been out of the loop for a long time and don't know if he is still around. If I really wanted a SW I would not resent paying a premium to get it now and not wait.
 

skins

Likes to draw
Silver Member
I'll tell you what will kick start the pool industry all over again.......look at history and look at how the millennial generation relate to film media......and then young teenagers........


Okay .......after WWII, G.I.'s returned to America and we witnessed a boom in pool.......soldiers that played pool & ping pong at the UFO and pool played in pubs while stationed in England, these guys returned home itching to play.

Brunswick still hadn't spotted the possibilities and it wasn't until the post wartime economy boomed whereby disposable income increased for most families, and there was the the GI bill, low mortgage homes, etc. Pool parlors started to blossom in the 50's and early 60's. Brunswick came out with the 9" table and crazy crayon color cloths.....pool rooms were like neon or so it seemed with the newer pool rooms. Long established parlors still were wooden tables and green felt but young folks didn't go those locations.

The stage was set for the first big explosion.....1960/61......"The Hustler" came out and what a great movie it was....tremendous stars....strong story....Academy Award nominations......Paul Newman at his best......and a tremendous pool story to boot......I was 14 years old and it suckered me in.....started playing at confraternity at the local schools....couldn't wait to turn 16 so I could walk in the front doors of a pool hall unescorted by someone over 18 yrs. old. As soon as I turned 16 yrs old, I started going to Balabushka's joint in Bay Ridge......and Ames in NYC on Sat nights......Wow, pool was glorious at that time.

Pool went crazy nationwide and continued that way for awhile but towards the late 70's and early 80's, the duldrums were setting in and then in 1986, The Color of Money came out......and crazy old Vincent caught the attention of America's youth.....everyone wanted to be Tom Cruise........and Balabushka cues jumped up in price fast........and the pool industry witnessed a rebirth of sorts......pool bounced back as an industry.

Voila ....here we are today....basically at rock bottom.....did anyone see the movie "Lawless"? It was about moonshining back in '31 when prohibition was around. America is in love with the first Godfather movie........same goes for the series on HBO...."Boardwalk Empire"......well, I have a idea that should be a sure fire hit.

You probably already figured out that I was going to write we need a movie about pool......not some crap like Pool Hall Junkies, or any reality shows....Nope, we need a "good" film.......and surprisingly I am not recommending Willie Mosconi's life story. Although he's undoubtedly the best to ever play the game, his life story wasn't exciting or that interesting aside from the great pool he played.

The film needs to be set in the Prohibition period and there needs to be talent behind the film.......Shia LaBeouf actually played a good part in the movie Lawless......I mention him because of the need to appeal to the millennial market and he seems like a likely candidate but there are always others to consider. The film needs someone like a Matt Damon creative type as the producer....maybe even a Tom Hardy bad guy character......and I have the story to go with this idea.....I've given this a lot of thought.

If a film was made about Cornbread Red's life story, with some editorial freedom to create some storied matches, and with today's camera technology to film pool shots, and the right cast........America would fall in love with pool all over again.......Cornbread's story coincides with Prohibition........he was a gambler extraordinaire.....and the right actor could make him come to life on the silver screen......and remember how much America loves stories involving the Prohibition era.

Jeez, you could have some gangster characters in the film too since pool was everyone's thing back then......Myer Lansky could be the money behind some guy Cornbread had to play.....Lucky Lucianno character might fit in too.......think about it......I can see the background of the old cars, the attire, round collared shirts, striped suits and the seedy aspect of pool as well like was preached in the film Music Man by Robert Preston. This is just a time in America lore that has enormous appeal and I'd love to hear your opinions.

Anyway, that's my panacea for igniting the spark again and I'm sure it would be a hit....just needs the right cast of actors......the storyline awaits.

Matt B.


Unfortunately Matt I believe this would have little if any effect on the cue market today.

What people need is education. I'll attribute my opinion to something I know much about. I've been in the music industry for 40 years. I'm a highly trained and educated professional percussion teacher and have been a live and studio musician since I was 14. Yep that's right, pool is not my full time gig, SURPRISE, lol... just a sideline to me albeit one I take very seriously .... Here's my point, over the past 15 years I have seen an influx of those crawling out of the woodwork claiming to know what they're talking about and as such start actually teaching those receptive enough to listen, wrongfully. This actually happens at public as well as private teaching "schools" and all over the Internet. Potential students looking for guidance enter these situations thinking they are led to the promise land and yet are being led to mediocrity at best.

This happens ALL over the cue world. The new custom lover has it the hardest because when trying to get guidance they fall prey to so many opinions based off what I call willful limited access, personal benefit, ignorance. You know, those who preach about how great "their" cues or cue maker are when they have not only, not been exposed to enough great makers, but wouldn't know what to look for in a well made cue in the first place... Unfortunately AZ has more than its fair share of those who claim to know the skinny about cues, voice their misguided opinions, and steer those in wrong direction and create more like them. If and when those who utilize this advice finally realize they've been duped they become wary about listening to anyone and shy away from future dealings. If they never realize it they unknowingly become another part of the problem.

This in turn hurts the respected cue dealers as well as the cue gurus who spend their lives educating themselves AND others on their wares, knowledge and, more than the layman, know the skinny on cues to a detail level.

This is my opinion to another reason why the cue market is stagnant...
 

franko

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
No

Didn't SW used to have a dealer named Vince who always had cues you could just buy? I have been out of the loop for a long time and don't know if he is still around. If I really wanted a SW I would not resent paying a premium to get it now and not wait.

No Vince was not a dealer. It was a busn. Arrangement made from the start up years of SW cues.
 

macguy

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
No Vince was not a dealer. It was a busn. Arrangement made from the start up years of SW cues.
Is he still around, it's been a long time? I used to see him at the BCA shows sometimes. He was a nice guy and he also played pretty good.
 

tonyboy59

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I believe the people that have money to buy highend or collectable cues are still out there and will continue to purchase them. Not only that, those folks are still holding on to their cues because they have no reason to sell them and take pride in their collection. These are some of the same people that collect coins, knives, watches and in some cases cars.

The people who had expendable income in the late 90's through mid 2000's no longer do...so they no longer buy cues even in the mid-price range. Those are the people that have been affected by the job market (layoffs, downsizing, leaning and greening). I'm in the gov't tech industry and as a rule those jobs pay well but are not as secure as they use to be. I've been laid off twice since early 2012 but have manged to regain employment and consider myself fortunate. I have played league pool for as long as I can remember and the majority of them play with production cues or a lower end custom cues cannot afford a collectable/highend cue. So the league players are not going to come to the rescue either.

I don't believe a movie, or a change back to how the forum use to operate, or the younger generation of pool players is going to make a difference. In other words the pool (no pun intended) of prospective and discreet buyers is shrinking.

If a cue is priced accordingly and you have the money...chance are you are going to buy the cue. If you want to see what your cue is really worth...put it on Ebay with great pics, and good description and no reserve and see what happens.

Decent deals can be had if you are at the right place and the right time and have good relationships with some on the known cue brokers/dealers/Azer's on this site. I'm saying this because in the last month I was lucky enough to purchase a Gus, a Barry and not too mention a Fellini for one of those cues.

Good Luck to everyone out there and hope to see you at the SBE in April.
 
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Quesports

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
So the league players are not going to come to the rescue either.

They just may be the main reason most pool halls are alive today....
 

ironchef.

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
So interesting reading this thread and I applaud all the participants on the various points they have brought up. I took a break from pool and cue collecting because my local pool hall closed up, it was time consuming to get to the next closest pool hall and its gotten really expensive to play pool in NYC.

Fast forward about 7 years and I find myself collecting cues again but oddly enough, still not being able to play. I LOVE this hobby. I appreciate the craftsmenship and working with a maker to create a new cue. I like the interaction between forum members and dealers on adding a cue to my collection as well.

Things have definitely changed, even the focus of my collecting. I've gotten some good deals and I'm continually surprised by some of the pricing (both high and low) on certain cues. I'm honestly not sure where the market is headed, but so long as I can afford it, I'll continue this hobby for as long as I personally can. I agree that education is key. I still talk with fellow collectors about specific preferences, designs, pricing, etc and I'm continually learning.
 

Ken_4fun

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I believe the people that have money to buy highend or collectable cues are still out there and will continue to purchase them. Not only that, those folks are still holding on to their cues because they have no reason to sell them and take pride in their collection. These are some of the same people that collect coins, knives, watches and in some cases cars.

The people who had expendable income in the late 90's through mid 2000's no longer do...so they no longer buy cues even in the mid-price range. Those are the people that have been affected by the job market (layoffs, downsizing, leaning and greening). I'm in the gov't tech industry and as a rule those jobs pay well but are not as secure as they use to be. I've been laid off twice since early 2012 but have manged to regain employment and consider myself fortunate. I have played league pool for as long as I can remember and the majority of them play with production cues or a lower end custom cues cannot afford a collectable/highend cue. So the league players are not going to come to the rescue either.

I don't believe a movie, or a change back to how the forum use to operate, or the younger generation of pool players is going to make a difference. In other words the pool (no pun intended) of prospective and discreet buyers is shrinking.

If a cue is priced accordingly and you have the money...chance are you are going to buy the cue. If you want to see what your cue is really worth...put it on Ebay with great pics, and good description and no reserve and see what happens.

Decent deals can be had if you are at the right place and the right time and have good relationships with some on the known cue brokers/dealers/Azer's on this site. I'm saying this because in the last month I was lucky enough to purchase a Gus, a Barry and not too mention a Fellini for one of those cues.

Good Luck to everyone out there and hope to see you at the SBE in April.

Agree 100%

Ken
 

cueman

AzB Gold Member
Gold Member
Silver Member
The lower to mid range cue market is picking up lately from what cuemakers are telling me. I am guessing it has somewhat to do with the gas prices dropping. I have also been told by local restaurants that business has picked up lately. We have to face the facts that pool is a luxury and so is all other forms of entertainment. So when the cost of essentials, like gas or groceries go up the spending on entertainment decreases.
 

galipeau

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I'm a newbie - lurked a while before I joined - but even I've been here activity has taken a serious downward turn, which I do believe to be at least in part due to the new bumping rules. Want to see a booming cue market? Go to Facebook. Cues are moving on Facebook in a way that they really aren't here. I like it here better, but if I want to see more cues than the current pittance AZ has to offer I have to go there.

What page are you referring to?
 

Chicagoplayer

AzB Gold Member
Gold Member
Silver Member
No-

I have been buying, selling and trading cues for the past 12 years. Each year the market has gotten progressively worse. It appears to be impossible to sell cues for real money anymore. I've seen the same cues being offered for sale at reasonable prices for several months in the Wanted/For Sale section of AZ and not selling. Is the cue market dead now and forever?

________________________________

It is not.

Does it need revitalizing
-yes.
How can that happen?

Revitalize pool-
how can that happen?

Touch the mainstream-
how can that happen?

Comics,
Novels
and Film

Maybe a little something like "Raising the Hustler"
:thumbup:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aGXWl3wE3Bw
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2uxH63RqwSM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6lZaUOJgnqU

http://www.americanbilliardradio.com/listen/2014/2/20/the-beard-the-angel-and-the-toaster

that's how it happens!

-CP
 

tonyboy59

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
So the league players are not going to come to the rescue either.

They just may be the main reason most pool halls are alive today....

You may want to re-read the thread. It didn't say anything (nor I) about pool halls...that would be a separate topic altogether.
 

Kevin Lindstrom

14.1 Addict
Silver Member
My take

I too have been buying and selling a few cues for close to 20 years now. In addition I have been going to the Super Billiards Expo since about 2000. I go every year and love it.

The biggest problem I see in the last few years especially,is what seem to be a lack of new cues coming into the market. At the expo you always see the same cues just moving from one dealer to another year after year. We now have more cue makers than ever but it still seems like I don't see enough new cues from which to choose when I want to buy something. Due to this feeling I have found myself ordering a cue or two a year from the different cue makers in order to get things that I want.

I will say that there are a few newer cue makers that have been producing a fair amount of new cues for the market and I hope that they continue to thrive in this more than tough business.

As we all know the cue buying community has always had limited numbers but those number seem to diminish more and more with each passing year.
That being said I want to thank all of the cue dealers than continue to hang in there and provide cues for us who like to buy. I would also like to thank all of the cue dealers and cue makers who continue to support events like the Super Billiards Expo for without them the SBE and other fine shows would not continue to exist.

Can't wait for April and the Super Billiards Expo. Thanks Allen and your staff and vendors for the great job you all do in making this a highly anticipated event each year for me.

Thanks

Kevin
 

LGSM3

Jake<built cues for fun
Silver Member
maybe?

Another perspective may be that a lot of buyers are to blame. Take a look around. Theres 10x the guys building cues in the same style. 99 out of 100 for sale threads are going to contain some variation of the same thing with a different guys name on it. People are continuing to order new cues that are identical to tons of them that already exist. The cuemakers can also share the blame as they've sold out by accommodating such.

just food for thought
 

Quesports

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
You may want to re-read the thread. It didn't say anything (nor I) about pool halls...that would be a separate topic altogether.

Yes, your right pool halls are a separate subject. Without pool halls there will be even less interest in pool cues, in my opinion. Personally I love pool and do hope it survives but it is not exactly flourishing. The leagues have made a large impact on the cue market, I bet most cue makers would agree on that. Back in the 70's I bet there weren't 40 or so custom cue makers in America since the advent of leagues that number jumped dramatically. Leagues have attracted substantial numbers of new young players and they are the future of pool.
 

tonyboy59

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Another perspective may be that a lot of buyers are to blame. Take a look around. Theres 10x the guys building cues in the same style. 99 out of 100 for sale threads are going to contain some variation of the same thing with a different guys name on it. People are continuing to order new cues that are identical to tons of them that already exist. The cuemakers can also share the blame as they've sold out by accommodating such.

just food for thought

While that my be true...I prefer to purchase cues from well established cue makers with a long history of making cues. I do not own any cues from any of the new generation of cue makers. I am old school when it comes to cues...just a preference on my part.
 

Bavafongoul

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Skins....West Point

WP....I've been pushing the movie about Cornbread for a few years after I read Cornbread's book and then saw the movie Lawless and of course, the success of Boardwalk Empire (which had Myer Lansky shooting pool in a couple of scenes & episodes), America is just head over heels with that era.

Skins, I do have regard for your opinions about pool and your comparison speaks from your extensive experience with the music industry per se.

All my life I've seen how movies exert an enormous influence on the buying market......the movie Endless Summer in the mid 60's caused the surf business to boom.......the movie "Big Wednesday" in the late 70's helped reinvigorate interest in surfing....surf shop board sales rebounded strong and beaches became crowded again with surfers.

Both movies, The Hustler & The Color of Money, had enormous impact on the billiard industry and I don't think anyone questions was key to arousing interest in playing pool. The film industry has always exercised an influence on certain segments of the viewing audience. Nowadays, it only takes a certain look or style of attire in a film to create a demand for that same clothes commercially or it might be a hair style that people want to copy or maybe the film had a theme like Save the Whales, etc. The film Free Willy really aroused interest in saving the whales.

People relate to things they enjoy and if the Cornbread movie, or any film about pool, was a commercial success, there's a subliminal appeal to segments of the film's viewership. Both The Hustler & The Color of Money were Academy Award type movies and so the Cornbread film would need to balance the character development and have some strong writing as much as also having some great pool scenes.

I just think that having seen this happen before, history will repeat itself again & we'll see pool playing revived but unless the film gets made, and has the right actors, we'll never find out.

Matt B.
 
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LGSM3

Jake<built cues for fun
Silver Member
While that my be true...I prefer to purchase cues from well established cue makers with a long history of making cues. I do not own any cues from any of the new generation of cue makers. I am old school when it comes to cues...just a preference on my part.

I respect that point of view as im kinda old school myself. I would say that my original point is somewhat mute if your ordering cues from someone like Tasc or Barry who have been around a while
 

HighEndCues

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I have been buying, selling and trading cues for the past 12 years. Each year the market has gotten progressively worse. It appears to be impossible to sell cues for real money anymore. I've seen the same cues being offered for sale at reasonable prices for several months in the Wanted/For Sale section of AZ and not selling. Is the cue market dead now and forever?

Seeing that you have been you've been buying , selling and trading for only 12years doesn't give you the whole picture.

You've experienced about 6 good years and now about 6 bad years in the cue market.
The cue market along with everything else took a hit in the 80's, then the 90's and now for the longest time in the late 2000's. History of the cue market has gone along with the ecomony.
But it only lastest a couple years in the 80's and 90's, then turned around once again.
No One expected the housing market to crash this hard and for this long. In all my years collecting the housing market hasn't went into the crapper for 7 years.

Many other collectors and dealers that have a lot of time in the cue business can remember the 90's. Many Many cue people made a lot of money on cues when it turned around. It was the highest growth in cues I've ever seen.

The economy and the housing market dictate everyone's expendable income. Yes, a lot of collectors buy cues sometimes with that cash that accumulates in the shoebox.
Not money that is needed for bills, or trying to recoop loses.
Collecting cues is not a necessity, it is a fringe benefit to spend money on ourselves when we are doing well.
It has worked out very well in the past as an investment along with treating ourselves with a guilty little pleasure.

For the people that are trying to make a living selling cues the road is still going to be bumpy for a while. The collectors that can wait for the ecomony to turn around once again, the road should repeat itself if history proves to be true.
"If you don't have extra money, You can't spend it"
Best,
Ken
 
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