Issue with slow rolls

[rumerx]

Assuming break speed is a 10, firm is a 6, I find myself usually having issues with slow rolls, or shots that's under 3. I usually play best at 6-7, keeping it consistent, one speed.

For example, a long roll over half a table, providing that the table is tested and perfectly level, by the time whitey gets there, I've misjudged by 1/3 ball.

So I tried to slow everything down, as well as the follow through, still same issue.
Then I tried shorter follow through, short stroke, it improved a bit but felt really uncomfortable when doing that.

Could I have some advice on how to fix this?

 

[Ahgao86]

Assuming break speed is a 10, firm is a 6, I find myself usually having issues with slow rolls, or shots that's under 3. I usually play best at 6-7, keeping it consistent, one speed.

For example, a long roll over half a table, providing that the table is tested and perfectly level, by the time whitey gets there, I've misjudged by 1/3 ball.

So I tried to slow everything down, as well as the follow through, still same issue.
Then I tried shorter follow through, short stroke, it improved a bit but felt really uncomfortable when doing that.

Could I have some advice on how to fix this?

You might need to check your stroke and your vision center. Sometimes it's unintentional English that has been applied either due to stroke imperfections or because your vision center is off. You can try googling for vision center and also under select billiards they have a video on how to pocket long shots and it's gotta do with using your back 2 fingers to grip the cue for that particular stroke instead of your thumb and first few fingers. Hope that helps.

Jameson Chin

 

[Gorramjayne]

Likely too much sideways motion in your stroke. The CB doesn't go where the cue is pointed, it goes in line with however the tip was moving at impact. When you slow your stroke down, any looseness in your bridge, elbow sticking out, cocked or slumped shoulder, etc, will case your tip to have more sideways motion compared to forward motion than if you're hitting a hard shot assuming the tip is wandering around the same amount.

Check your stance and start with your tip as close to the ball as possible. If your tip is several inches behind the CB, then you're actually contacting the CB during what should be your follow-through which is where most of the non-linear tip motion will occur.

Note also that throw is amplified on slow speed shots so you may also be encountering a few times where you need to aim the shot a hair thinner than you're used to, but if you're actually missing by a 1/3 ball, that can't be the only problem.

 

[BilliardsAbout]

Very good post but are you overcutting these shots or undercutting them when you miss?

 

[FranCrimi]

Assuming break speed is a 10, firm is a 6, I find myself usually having issues with slow rolls, or shots that's under 3. I usually play best at 6-7, keeping it consistent, one speed.

For example, a long roll over half a table, providing that the table is tested and perfectly level, by the time whitey gets there, I've misjudged by 1/3 ball.

So I tried to slow everything down, as well as the follow through, still same issue.
Then I tried shorter follow through, short stroke, it improved a bit but felt really uncomfortable when doing that.

Could I have some advice on how to fix this?

It's probably not a good idea to soft roll shots a half a table length or longer, especially on tables that have a lot of wear. The kill shot allows you to shoot with a bit more speed to hold the line to the object ball and yet still accomplish the soft roll effect.

Do a little research on how to shoot a kill shot -- Basically, you shoot a little firmer than a soft roll shot, but with backspin that you allow to wear off at a particular point as the cue ball travels to the object ball. The speed you shoot, how much backspin you apply, and the point at which you want the backspin to wear off will determine how far forward the cue ball travels after it contacts the object ball.

It's actually easier than it sounds. It's also an essential shot to know so that you can avoid the cue ball rolling off line as with a slow roll shot.

 

[alphadog]

It's probably not a good idea to soft roll shots a half a table length or longer, especially on tables that have a lot of wear. The kill shot allows you to shoot with a bit more speed to hold the line to the object ball and yet still accomplish the soft roll effect.

Do a little research on how to shoot a kill shot -- Basically, you shoot a little firmer than a soft roll shot, but with backspin that you allow to wear off at a particular point as the cue ball travels to the object ball. The speed you shoot, how much backspin you apply, and the point at which you want the backspin to wear off will determine how far forward the cue ball travels after it contacts the object ball.

It's actually easier than it sounds. It's also an essential shot to know so that you can avoid the cue ball rolling off line as with a slow roll shot.

Fran that's great advice. So what does the op do when has to a play a slow roll safety on a ball almost frozen to a cushion,or trying to nudge a ball into a certain position. Stun isn't getting it done,so now we're back to the op's question.

 

[Slasher]

This is where a pause on your back swing really comes into it's own. It makes it much easier to transition from your warm up stroke speed to the required speed for the shot.

 

[Ahgao86]

Fran that's great advice. So what does the op do when has to a play a slow roll safety on a ball almost frozen to a cushion,or trying to nudge a ball into a certain position. Stun isn't getting it done,so now we're back to the op's question.

comparing a drag shot and a slow roll, which would be a slower shot? Just curious because there are times when a ball is hanging in the pocket and I don't wanna travel far from that side of the table, I usually slow roll balls down, but sadly the table wasn't level and that cost me the match. After reading this thread I'm thinking, "Dang! I should've did a drag shot!". The only issue with a drag shot is that any accidental side would be costly too.

 

[Gorramjayne]

comparing a drag shot and a slow roll, which would be a slower shot? Just curious because there are times when a ball is hanging in the pocket and I don't wanna travel far from that side of the table, I usually slow roll balls down, but sadly the table wasn't level and that cost me the match. After reading this thread I'm thinking, "Dang! I should've did a drag shot!". The only issue with a drag shot is that any accidental side would be costly too.

Typically the slow roll is the softer shot. The drag shot is more for when you'd like to play a near-stun (limiting your follow while still hitting medium pace and/or manipulating the CB angle) but are too far away, and is usually the better option if it's available. Usually the CB still has moderate pace, the backspin doesn't slow it down all that much, but lets you come off somewhere near the stun angle without blasting a stun shot all the way down the table. Very soft drag shots are sometimes useful but those are the ones most likely to go wrong when you are hitting soft on the CB very low near the miscue limit.

Long slow rolls can go bad on you for any number of reasons, like an uneven table or a piece of chalk or dirt on the cloth. And any unintended sideways tip motion could change your line either missing or causing you to follow the ball in / get hooked.

The drag shot usually will give you more options to manipulate the CB angle when it comes off the OB/rail as well, whereas it's extremely difficult to use heavy sidespin to reach position on a slow roll. The CB will deviate and it's hard to predict how the spin will take off a rail unless the CB hits it with some pace left. That said, there are times when the slow roll is the only option, like some safeties, carom/combos, going into a side pocket at a shallow angle, and most often with the CB is on the rail.

Of course the first best option is not to get in that situation in the first place and plan ahead and make position where you are close enough for an ordinary stun or close roll...

Edit: Accidental side on a drag shot will probably still pocket the ball, missing your ideal position by a little. The good part of a drag shot is you can hit it at a normal stroke speed so you're less likely to get unintentional side in the first place.

 

[Ahgao86]

Typically the slow roll is the softer shot. The drag shot is more for when you'd like to play a near-stun (limiting your follow while still hitting medium pace and/or manipulating the CB angle) but are too far away, and is usually the better option if it's available. Usually the CB still has moderate pace, the backspin doesn't slow it down all that much, but lets you come off somewhere near the stun angle without blasting a stun shot all the way down the table. Very soft drag shots are sometimes useful but those are the ones most likely to go wrong when you are hitting soft on the CB very low near the miscue limit.

Long slow rolls can go bad on you for any number of reasons, like an uneven table or a piece of chalk or dirt on the cloth. And any unintended sideways tip motion could change your line either missing or causing you to follow the ball in / get hooked.

The drag shot usually will give you more options to manipulate the CB angle when it comes off the OB/rail as well, whereas it's extremely difficult to use heavy sidespin to reach position on a slow roll. The CB will deviate and it's hard to predict how the spin will take off a rail unless the CB hits it with some pace left. That said, there are times when the slow roll is the only option, like some safeties, carom/combos, going into a side pocket at a shallow angle, and most often with the CB is on the rail.

Of course the first best option is not to get in that situation in the first place and plan ahead and make position where you are close enough for an ordinary stun or close roll...

Edit: Accidental side on a drag shot will probably still pocket the ball, missing your ideal position by a little. The good part of a drag shot is you can hit it at a normal stroke speed so you're less likely to get unintentional side in the first place.

Thanks for the reply! Will go try it out tomorrow on the tables!

 

[FranCrimi]

Fran that's great advice. So what does the op do when has to a play a slow roll safety on a ball almost frozen to a cushion,or trying to nudge a ball into a certain position. Stun isn't getting it done,so now we're back to the op's question.

It depends on how far the cb is from the ob. You have to weigh the percentages of success. If they're too low then you just have to choose something different.

 

[rrick33]

If you're still having issues with it 90 days from now, drop me a personal note.

 

[alphadog]

It depends on how far the cb is from the ob. You have to weigh the percentages of success. If they're too low then you just have to choose something different.

Wow more great advice! If the shot calls for a slow roll how does the op increase the % of a succesful execution?

 

[BilliardsAbout]

Typically the slow roll is the softer shot. The drag shot is more for when you'd like to play a near-stun (limiting your follow while still hitting medium pace and/or manipulating the CB angle) but are too far away, and is usually the better option if it's available. Usually the CB still has moderate pace, the backspin doesn't slow it down all that much, but lets you come off somewhere near the stun angle without blasting a stun shot all the way down the table. Very soft drag shots are sometimes useful but those are the ones most likely to go wrong when you are hitting soft on the CB very low near the miscue limit.

Long slow rolls can go bad on you for any number of reasons, like an uneven table or a piece of chalk or dirt on the cloth. And any unintended sideways tip motion could change your line either missing or causing you to follow the ball in / get hooked.

The drag shot usually will give you more options to manipulate the CB angle when it comes off the OB/rail as well, whereas it's extremely difficult to use heavy sidespin to reach position on a slow roll. The CB will deviate and it's hard to predict how the spin will take off a rail unless the CB hits it with some pace left. That said, there are times when the slow roll is the only option, like some safeties, carom/combos, going into a side pocket at a shallow angle, and most often with the CB is on the rail.

Of course the first best option is not to get in that situation in the first place and plan ahead and make position where you are close enough for an ordinary stun or close roll...

Edit: Accidental side on a drag shot will probably still pocket the ball, missing your ideal position by a little. The good part of a drag shot is you can hit it at a normal stroke speed so you're less likely to get unintentional side in the first place.

The in-between is what a lot of players haven't been shown--hit below center softly enough so that the drag wears off by the time the cue ball reaches the object ball. Players tend to not think "I want to follow the cue ball after impact so I'll hit below center."

 

[FranCrimi]

Wow more great advice! If the shot calls for a slow roll how does the op increase the % of a succesful execution?

Sometimes the only answer is to pick another option, like a safety or playing the shot at normal speed and taking your chances on position play. Many players get locked into one choice and get fixated on that choice. I've often decided to shoot a shot at full speed, send the cue ball around the table and back for position because it was a higher percentage than a slow roll shot.

Maybe the player doesn't have to go to that extreme as my example, but just because a shot is make-able, it doesn't mean the best choice is to make it. Safety shots are just as good as a pocketed ball if you can get back to the table the next inning. It's all about having control of the table, even if you have to give up control for one shot.

 

[ENGLISH!]

Assuming break speed is a 10, firm is a 6, I find myself usually having issues with slow rolls, or shots that's under 3. I usually play best at 6-7, keeping it consistent, one speed.

For example, a long roll over half a table, providing that the table is tested and perfectly level, by the time whitey gets there, I've misjudged by 1/3 ball.

So I tried to slow everything down, as well as the follow through, still same issue.
Then I tried shorter follow through, short stroke, it improved a bit but felt really uncomfortable when doing that.

Could I have some advice on how to fix this?

Are you missing your mark on the object ball by 1/3 of a ball or the pocket by 1/3 of a ball. If it is the pocket by 1/3 of a ball what's to say that you would not have missed it by 1/3 of a ball if hitting the shot more firmly. If it is the 'mark' of the Object bBall by that much... then I would guess that you have some form of alignment/aiming issue or... If you are hitting below center to have it wear off for the ball to slow roll into the OB then you are probably NOT hitting on the vertical center line & are putting unwanted & unnoticed side spin on the ball that is taking the ball off of the intended line. Or... it may even be a combination of both.

You've received some good info from Fran Crimi & I would suggest to 'always' listen to what she says.

I've recently had & am still having some issues with me NOT seeing the true straight line as straight or said another way... I sometimes see a line that is of maybe 2 to 3 degrees off as a straight line. It has to do with which eye is taking over for a given position over the cue stick. You might want to do some tests to see if you are 'rolling' the ball with no english & if so... then you might want to contact Gene Albright (Ginomachino on AZB) for a free phone lesson to check & find out if you ARE seeing a straight line as straight... or NOT.

Good Luck with finding a solution.

PS I am NOT a Certified Instructor so keep that in mind & take what I've said as you will.

 

[alphadog]

Sometimes the only answer is to pick another option, like a safety or playing the shot at normal speed and taking your chances on position play. Many players get locked into one choice and get fixated on that choice. I've often decided to shoot a shot at full speed, send the cue ball around the table and back for position because it was a higher percentage than a slow roll shot.

Maybe the player doesn't have to go to that extreme as my example, but just because a shot is make-able, it doesn't mean the best choice is to make it. Safety shots are just as good as a pocketed ball if you can get back to the table the next inning. It's all about having control of the table, even if you have to give up control for one shot.

So if the "risk" is worth the "reward" do you have any pointers to help the op?

 

[FranCrimi]

So if the "risk" is worth the "reward" do you have any pointers to help the op?

Yes, as I mentioned before, try the kill shot or as some call it -- the drag draw shot. As for slow rolling long shots, I don't have any advice that I consider worth while because it's probably not something I would do or recommend. But if the player feels like they absolutely have no choice, they can try taking a very short stroke to limit the possibilities of the stroke going off-line. But things like that lead to bad habits. I've seen players suddenly find success with a short stroke and then they start to use it for everything ---- and it almost always leads to poking. So, you have to have the self-discipline to use it only when necessary.

 

[BasementDweller]

Working on slow rolled shots can help your overall game tremendously even if you take Fran's advice and try to avoid these shots if at all possible during competition. But if you desire to be a complete player there's simply NO way to totally avoid these types of shots.

All of your fundamentals go under a microscope on these shots. Remaining both still and loose (grip hand) is key on these shots. One little trick I've discovered that helps me on these shots, and helps me so much I almost hesitate to share it is this: exhale as you stroke through the ball. I know some will say you shouldn't ever focus on something like your breathing but this really does the trick for me.

As an experiment, try to tense up your body while exhaling and you will see that it's almost impossible to do. This exhaling helps prevent the grip hand from tensing up and throwing the shot offline.

No instructor here -- but I've spent and continue to spend a ton of time practicing these unavoidable shots.

 

[Bank it]

Try sticking your tongue out. Impossible to do that & tense up. It works.