Maple Shaft Weight/Playability

Colonel

Raised by Wolves in a Pool Hall
Silver Member
In good old fashioned Maple shafts the subject of grain line density affecting playability is often discussed. What I’ve never heard discussed is how shaft weight, I.E. shafts over 4oz vs shafts under 4oz difference in playability. I’m curious as to the opinions of the people that make cues regarding this.
 

Kim Bye

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
If it only was so simple. Grain density, grain straightness and overall weight does play a factor, but so do the taper, ferrule material, construction and tip. So it's the "sum of all the parts" that determines what you ultimately feel.
 

Colonel

Raised by Wolves in a Pool Hall
Silver Member
If it only was so simple. Grain density, grain straightness and overall weight does play a factor, but so do the taper, ferrule material, construction and tip. So it's the "sum of all the parts" that determines what you ultimately feel.
Understood. Let me rephrase for further consideration from you. Given you’ve got several shafts with taper, ferrule you know works for you and these shafts have similar density and straightness of grain. How much does weight, 4oz & over/under 4oz affect playability and performance in your opinion?
 

Kim Bye

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Understood. Let me rephrase for further consideration from you. Given you’ve got several shafts with taper, ferrule you know works for you and these shafts have similar density and straightness of grain. How much does weight, 4oz & over/under 4oz affect playability and performance in your opinion?
All things being equal, you would obviously have a more forward balanced cue due to the heavier shaft. If you could feel the denser shaft in terms of the hit? I'm in the possibly camp on that one. If the shaft is turned right warpage is rarely an issue and the tighter and straighter the grain I would expect it to stay straight under normal use and storage. It can be hard to separate out what the different parts of the cue brings to the table. Some parts like a hard ferrule material, SS joint collar and if the cue has a bumper or not to name a few things is things that does impact hit,feel and feedback in an obvious way, other aspects can be more subtle or even impossible to tell.
 

garczar

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Understood. Let me rephrase for further consideration from you. Given you’ve got several shafts with taper, ferrule you know works for you and these shafts have similar density and straightness of grain. How much does weight, 4oz & over/under 4oz affect playability and performance in your opinion?
I would say two things: none, and this is way over-analyzing. I had a R'Black with fairly stout 4oz'rs and i tried a friend's lighter shaft(same ferrule tip) and i couldn't tell any difference worth noting. If all else is same all you're gonna do is change BP a little. That may be a big deal to some but not to me. I adjust pretty quik.
 

snookered_again

Well-known member
If I had a load of lumber to build a project, porch or whatever. I'd note that some planks are a bit heavier and If they also have no knots , cracks etc, I'd consider that a better plank and may set it aside for some important woodwork project. I feel the heavier and tighter grain is also going to be more stiff, assuming proportions are identical.

The optimum flexibility , I'll leave that to the "experts" to decide.. maybe its a preference, if you want a stffer cue or a more flexible one. There may not be any hard rules as so much is about your own perception.

I htnk its hard to understand when looking at a cue what part of the trunk that cue came from, a cuemaker may be more aware of it than a buyer because of his in depth knowledge of the wood and the particular cue.
hard to see any endgrain on a finished cue and from looking at the sides and turning it, well maybe you can decide where in the tree it came from, I can't I can only really tell if its a plank that I'm going to use.

a good way to get good lumber is if you know a woodworker that uses lots of it, If you had a friend with a production facility maybe he'd save aside some of the best bits, knowing it is for cues and the wood is very critical, an arrangement like that might give you access to larger quantities to cull from.

A tree with tight grain probably grew in competition for light, which very generally speaking , makes for better wood, that's why regrowth of clearcut areas produces lumber has a low number of rings per inch as compared to virgin timber.

The straightness of the grain has a lot to do with how many branches the tree had in the area that the lumber came from, absence of branches means straighter grain, in general.
A tree with no competition can branch out more than one in a confined space with other big trees. the straighter the grain pattern, the less internal stress in the lumber, means less warpage ,in general.
Even when you cut a knot out, just being near it means some wave in the grain, usually.

The figure of the grain may be desirable , for cosmetics, It can look very pretty.. Maple can have very beautiful grain patterns where the grain is more "confused".

You may like that for veneers etc, but the shaft is usually "boring" because its important that it stays straight.

I like to take a cue and gently bonk the side of my head with it, then I can hear the ring of it, its own natural resonance, if anything is loose I can often pick up on it that way. I also just find it interesting to "hear" the differences from one to the next.

Every cue has a bit different tone to it. - as a sum of all its parts it has its own natural frequency or resonance.

maybe someone scientific could look at the sound imprint and figure out if it has any worth in examining cues. I just find it interesting..

If I am moving planks around I'll sometimes find cracks just because one may sound a bit "dead". Wood can have cracks that are unseen and hiding within due to things like sap inclusions. Probably for most cues you'd be turning it small enough it would be hard to have one hidden. If it's parts for a staircase, I may not want that wood in my stringers. treads and risers are much easier to replace than stringers.

If you were cutting lumber down to make cue blanks you may set them aside two days after roughing them out, Upon return , some may bend more than others. If given the choice I'd pick the straighter ones. If they are straighter at that point I'd reason this is more stable lumber.

Often part of the job if you are constructing things, other than cues is to select the lumber and use the best for the face, drawer fonts, door parts, etc, parts that show. You can often hide the "lesser" lumber at the backs of drawers, drawer guides, internal parts of the carcass, etc. You want to keep waste to a minimum, it means each piece is selected from what you have. None is ever perfect. Your end product, and amount that ends up being culled, will be affected by those choices. you may for example choose to put the most "disturbed" pieces int your drawer fronts because you find it visually appealing, that is a choice a woodworker may make consciously. Careful wood selection alone definitely is an "art" and it is perhaps up to the craftsman to decide upon.

when selecting planks , an example is at a lumberyard where you are lookign at a whole skid. Try to pay attention to the ends of those planks, look at the rings, this will show you what portion of the tree it was cut from. if the rings have a big arc it was a big tree, if it is dead center, thats a bit to avoid, the core. otherwise you may chose wood from either near the core, or near the bark..

If I was there and saw a log sliced like a loaf of bread ( flat sawn) Id gravitate to theat piece int he n=middle but woud not use the core, why ? becaue all theothers have a different grain structure on one side as compared to the other side, because thye are from different parts of the trunk.. that one in the center is even so It will ( in general) warp to a lesser extent.

a way to reduce this warpage due to differences in grain structure is to cut the tree like a pie, now you have bunch of wedge shapes, this is wasteful , quartersawn, that's a variant often used.. most building lumber is flat sawn, the tree is simply sliced up bu thtere are variations. If you go buy expensibve hardwoods it may be quartersawn or it may be edge grain lumber, this is more expensive.

just knowing how to "pick the pile" has some merrit, chances are every plank in the pile is the same price but if you are perceptive you can choose the best by paying attention in part, to the endgrain, so look at the end of the stack, not only individual planks. sorry I veereed a little off topic, thought it may help someone. A lot of this was not obvious to me years ago.

My feeling is that if you gain a good understanding of the wood itself, this can help even if you are just picking a cue to buy.
 
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Colonel

Raised by Wolves in a Pool Hall
Silver Member
All things being equal, you would obviously have a more forward balanced cue due to the heavier shaft. If you could feel the denser shaft in terms of the hit? I'm in the possibly camp on that one. If the shaft is turned right warpage is rarely an issue and the tighter and straighter the grain I would expect it to stay straight under normal use and storage. It can be hard to separate out what the different parts of the cue brings to the table. Some parts like a hard ferrule material, SS joint collar and if the cue has a bumper or not to name a few things is things that does impact hit,feel and feedback in an obvious way, other aspects can be more subtle or even impossible to tell.
Really love your response and hope I get more from other cue makers which is why I posed this question here vs. the main forum. I’m interested in views of makers as I’ve spent my life playing this game and I have formulated an opinion on this from a players perspective. Thank you for the reply, genuinely appreciated.
 

JoeyInCali

Maker of Joey Bautista Cues
Silver Member
Finding shafts weighing over 4 oz ( for a 13mm with gradual taper to the middle ) is getting harder these days .
Nothing set it in stone but usually heavier shafts are stiffer ( again, USUALLY ) in the bending test .
Usually tighter grain shafts are also stiffer . But, there are always exceptional pieces that aren't tight grain and heavy.
Makers like matching shafts by weight ( for pairing and to match with the butt for total weight and balance ) . Some like matching by tone or by stiffness or even by it's cosmetics.
My late mentor liked matching tone more than grain count in pairing with other shafts and with the forearm woods.
He liked low tone shafts for heavy forearm woods and he liked pingier shafts for maple forearms .

Me, personally, I like shafts around 3.7 oz.
 

Shooter08

Runde Aficianado
Gold Member
Silver Member
I’ll pass on the cosmetics, give me some sugar marks if the builder says it’s a good shaft. No kiln dried pure white shafts either fir me. Shooter08
 

Colonel

Raised by Wolves in a Pool Hall
Silver Member
Finding shafts weighing over 4 oz ( for a 13mm with gradual taper to the middle ) is getting harder these days .
Nothing set it in stone but usually heavier shafts are stiffer ( again, USUALLY ) in the bending test .
Usually tighter grain shafts are also stiffer . But, there are always exceptional pieces that aren't tight grain and heavy.
Makers like matching shafts by weight ( for pairing and to match with the butt for total weight and balance ) . Some like matching by tone or by stiffness or even by it's cosmetics.
My late mentor liked matching tone more than grain count in pairing with other shafts and with the forearm woods.
He liked low tone shafts for heavy forearm woods and he liked pingier shafts for maple forearms .

Me, personally, I like shafts around 3.7 oz.
I was hoping you’d reply to this thread, thank you for taking the time to do so, much appreciated.Can you expound on your weight preference? I’m really interested in your perspective. Thanks
 

JoeyInCali

Maker of Joey Bautista Cues
Silver Member
I was hoping you’d reply to this thread, thank you for taking the time to do so, much appreciated.Can you expound on your weight preference? I’m really interested in your perspective. Thanks
4 oz just feels too.heavy for me.
I like 15 to 15.2 oz butt and 3.7 or so shafts
 

Mcues

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Lots of Southwest shafts are in the 3.7 to 3.9 paired with almost 16oz butts... I do like that match up.
 
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