My Big Problem With Leagues.

[OldHasBeen]

My Son's friend was playing on their APA league last night. They both are 4's and are just playing for the fun and competitiveness of it. The captain told my son's friend that he had to lose on purpose to keep his standings.
He said he didn't want to and didn't care about winning a trip to Vegas. Believe me, this kids Dad could buy one of the big hotels in Vegas.
Anyway, the captain tells him he must lose or he will kick him off the team.

AND THAT "IN A NUTSHELL" IS WHAT IS WRONG WITH LEAGUES.

Is this supposed to be teaching young people (that are interested in pool) a good lesson about our game?

TY & GL

 

[Jaden]

I totally agree

That is a major problem. Teaching people to sandbag and rewarding selfishness. Pathetic. Punishing forthrightness and rewarding selfishness, that's a major problem with modern society in general.

 

[OldHasBeen]

Woh, I don't want to go there!

That is a major problem. Teaching people to sandbag and rewarding selfishness. Pathetic. Punishing forthrightness and rewarding selfishness, that's a major problem with modern society in general.

I'm just talking about pool leagues. If I were to say all that other stuff, I'm sure someone on here would tell me not to throw rocks in my glass house.

TY & GL

 

[Jaden]

Lmfao.

I'm just talking about pool leagues. If I were to say all that other stuff, I'm sure someone on here would tell me not to throw rocks in my glass house.

TY & GL

LMFAO...... the dots were to get to a minumum of ten characters.....

 

[alpine9430]

How about this one!

Playing TAP 8-ball in the first round of playoffs. I have a team member that works the afternoon shift and gets to the pool hall about 10:00 to 10:15 PM while league play starts at 7:30.
We are scheduled for a total of 5 matches and we are in the middle of match number 4.
Handicaps are 4-4 so it is a race to 3.
The opposing captain has his player forfeit his match for a 2 to 2 record through 4 matches for both teams
The opposing captain gives my captain 10 minutes to product the 5 player or forfeit the match.
We we did forfeit and the last player showed up about 15 minutes later.
I understand the strategy but I thought it was about having fun and promoting the sport...
Well our league lost 2 teams with the start of the next session.

 

[randyg]

Not all Leagues are created equal!

 

[Icon of Sin]

I hate sandbagging. I will never hold back or ask another player to hold back on my team just for the sake of keeping his skill level low.

If I was you or your son's friend I would confront the team captain about this and tell him "no" if he has a problem with that then leave the team and report him to the APA league office. He wouldn't have had the chance to kick me off the team as I would have left the team right there. It is rather easy to find another team to join, especially as a 4.

My skill level going up on league night is one outside resource that lets me know my game is improving. I like it when my skill level goes up.

 

[9 Ball Girl]

When I played in APA leagues many moons ago, there were a couple of times where I was told that I had to lose for the team. ??? was my response. So I would refuse to play and let them get it that way 'cause if I'm playing, I'm going to try my darndest to win. If it wasn't a request to lose, then it was a request to try to get a whole bunch of innings in to keep my handicap down. APA is definitely not for me.

 

[DoomCue]

My Son's friend was playing on their APA league last night. They both are 4's and are just playing for the fun and competitiveness of it. The captain told my son's friend that he had to lose on purpose to keep his standings.
He said he didn't want to and didn't care about winning a trip to Vegas. Believe me, this kids Dad could buy one of the big hotels in Vegas.
Anyway, the captain tells him he must lose or he will kick him off the team.

AND THAT "IN A NUTSHELL" IS WHAT IS WRONG WITH LEAGUES.

Is this supposed to be teaching young people (that are interested in pool) a good lesson about our game?

TY & GL

I have to agree with Jaden, this is really a human nature problem that just happened to manifest itself in a league environment. Those problems exist in any competitive environment, whether it's leagues or business. Some people just like to try to bend the rules to get by (see Enron and Tyco).

In the APA Masters leagues I play in, we never have such problems. Of course, we don't have handicaps, either, so there's no reason to sandbag. In any case, there's an easy solution for your son - don't play for that guy's team. If somebody told me I had to try to lose or get booted, he'd have to boot me. I've never dumped, and never will. My pride and integrity won't let me.

If enough honest people step up and refuse to play with morons like your son's captain, those types of captains would cease to exist. At least, that's what I like to believe. Fact is, there will always be people like that in every walk of life, and the best way to deal is not to have anything to do with them. If it wouldn't get you arrested, you could always try to knock some sense into them....

-djb

 

[uwate]

I saw an APA league match that almost broke out into a fistfight. They were arguing over whether a pocket was called for an obvious shot. 12 adults screaming at each other and between the lot of them, not a single one could run a rack with BIH with a gun pointed at their heads.

 

[MrLucky]

My Son's friend was playing on their APA league last night. They both are 4's and are just playing for the fun and competitiveness of it. The captain told my son's friend that he had to lose on purpose to keep his standings.
He said he didn't want to and didn't care about winning a trip to Vegas. Believe me, this kids Dad could buy one of the big hotels in Vegas.
Anyway, the captain tells him he must lose or he will kick him off the team.

AND THAT "IN A NUTSHELL" IS WHAT IS WRONG WITH LEAGUES.

Is this supposed to be teaching young people (that are interested in pool) a good lesson about our game?

TY & GL

It's sad that there are still some of these types left in the league, but IMO it is more a factor of the particular league (area) manager than the league in general some managers do not care to monitor their teams I have played APA for 21 years now and it was way more prevalent in the past than it is now in my area. but yes it does still exist! I tell my players to play their best and just have fun ! if we ned to split the team and bring in new players all the better some captains take all of the fun out of playing by pushing their team to win at all cost ! IE: by cheating the handicaps in the manner you described or by going ballistic when a player misses or screws up!

 

[Schwinn]

I don't think its a problem with leagues, just a-holes like this captain. I like the APA system. It's a lot of fun and geared toward amateurs. This guy has got no dignity. APA works for honest people who just want to have fun.

 

[MrLucky]

exatomundo

I don't think its a problem with leagues, just a-holes like this captain. I like the APA system. It's a lot of fun and geared toward amateurs. This guy has got no dignity. APA works for honest people who just want to have fun.

My thoughts also!

 

[Snapshot9]

2 edged sword

because if you do away with handicaps altogether, most
of the lessor players would quit, but with some of the handicap
systems existing a better player can raise his handicap so high
where he can still win the game, but his team loses the match.

I see a lot of leagues and pool rooms too, that end up punishing
a better player with handicaps, especially assigning them a
handicap locally that is above what they would be rated
on a national money ball scale. Or everytime someone gets
in the money in a local tournament, they keep raising and raising
their handicap to the point it almost becomes impossible for
them to get in the money. Is that fair?

It seems, after awhile, that they are trying to work everything
towards a strong medium handicapped player, and no, they do
NOT seem to go up like the better players in handicap.

One local tournament here, supposedly on a national handicap system,
goes by matches, and you can not get in the money and still
have your handicap go up.

Better players will stop sandbagging when they stop getting
punished with ridiculous handicap systems.

I teamed up with a partner last Friday night in a Crazyboard
tournament, and we played good together and won the tournament,
winning a $100. The averages are based on BCA league ratings.
The next night I went in, Al got there later, and the owner of the
pool room has raised us both up by 3 average points apiece, which
in that particular type of tournament results in a 13.2 point detriment
to us on top of what we were giving up to begin with. I might add
that when I play in that type of tournament in a singles qualifier and
place 1st or 2nd, and get to play in a playoff tournament with other
winners, the owner tacks on 2 more points to my average above the
3 he raised me before. My average gets jacked 5 total points, is that
fair? (Just because I am a money player)

 

[Bamacues]

Sandbagging is a real problem. Not only does it keep your handicap down falsely, it improperly causes your opponent's handicap to go up when they are not realy good enough or ready yet. I have always felt that a captain can control a player's handicap simply by matching them up against someone they probably won't win against. That way, the player can shoot his/her best and still will probably lose. If they win, then they deserve to play at a higher handicap. At least they will learn from playing better players. If I pay my money for a match, no way am I going to play to try to lose, nor am I going to ask anyone else on my team to lose. That is just plain bulls#$@!!

 

[alstl]

My Son's friend was playing on their APA league last night. They both are 4's and are just playing for the fun and competitiveness of it. The captain told my son's friend that he had to lose on purpose to keep his standings.
He said he didn't want to and didn't care about winning a trip to Vegas. Believe me, this kids Dad could buy one of the big hotels in Vegas.
Anyway, the captain tells him he must lose or he will kick him off the team.

AND THAT "IN A NUTSHELL" IS WHAT IS WRONG WITH LEAGUES.

Is this supposed to be teaching young people (that are interested in pool) a good lesson about our game?

TY & GL

Since I'm a beginner, I hesitate to give you advice but I was in an in house 8 ball league at Chesterfield that might be better for your son and his friend. There were some good players and some beginners like myself. I'm not very good and I won my last 5 matches, at the same time I had guys run racks on me. I never had any pressure to do anything but win and I never saw anybody dump a game. The only problem I had was with the smoke in the room but if you don't mind that you will probably like the league.

For what it's worth.

 

[Nit]

OHB

Where was Tom playing league?

 

[Cory in DC]

I have always felt that a captain can control a player's handicap simply by matching them up against someone they probably won't win against. That way, the player can shoot his/her best and still will probably lose. If they win, then they deserve to play at a higher handicap.

I was just about to post that exact point. As an added bonus, the strong opposing player that your player is unlikely to beat is a bullet that someone on your team had to take. This way, (1) your player probably doesn't go up (unless he or she wins, which you think is unlikely), (2) one of your other players gets a better match-up. I had my 2 go up (somehow, with 12 wins in her last 30 and 4 of her last 7. I couldn't believe it!) by beating too many 2's. I didn't tell her to lose, I just played her against decent 3's. She had no chance, and went down two weeks later.

One drawback is that the strong players on other teams are sometimes also sandbaggers, in which case they might throw the match, causing this to backfire.

Cory

 

[pool]

Comments By An APA Captain

I have been playing in pool leagues for a number of years and I don't think that there is anything inherently "wrong" about them. They provide a fertile ground for players of all levels to develop their skills and enjoy the game in a social setting.

The real problem comes from the odd captain of questionable ethics. I always give my players the same advice; "Just play as best you can and let me worry about everything else." The problem is that any league incorporating a handicap system is that unethical people will try to beat that system. No system is safe from this behavior. I would encourage anyone to report sandbaggers to their league operators.

 

[Nit]

... No system is safe from this behavior...

It's actually quite easily eliminated. Problem is, you don't want it eliminated.