Your GF/wife will appreciate your oh so soft hands also.
Considering you're still allowed to touch her
Opinions wanted on clear finishes.
- Thread starter 67fastback
- Start date
Considering you're still allowed to touch her
Considering you're still allowed to touch her
Haha...after the first 20 yrs you'll find begging is an acquired art also.
I have two 4 oz bottles of the solarez finish if anyone would like to try it out for themselves. Cost me approx 35$ plus shipping. I've used only a very small amount from each bottle.
Interested...Email your address to me and I'll send it to you.
Send me back a nice piece of wood that you feel is comparable after you get it.
Interested...Email your address to me and I'll send it to you.
Send me back a nice piece of wood that you feel is comparable after you get it.
Unfortunately, this is pretty much the same experience a lot of makers have had, and if they haven't, they have heard the horror stories. The result is that CA finish gets a stigma. That's unfair because not all CA finishes are the same. If you go to Wal-Mart & buy a spray can of clear car paint, technically it's auto clear. Would you compare that to your finish? Of course not. It's as much like your finish as 50 coats of crazy glue is to my finish. Or it's like comparing Solarez to the legit UV cure finishes. Apples & oranges.
My finish costs $1100/gal. I have a booth with filtered downdraft back wall, LED lights, and variable speed lathe. It takes 3-4 coats per cue & has a durable, lasting shine that endures as much abuse as any other finish, maybe more. There are many parallels between it and auto clear, especially cost and set-up. The differences are that mine isn't sprayed & denatured alcohol is the harshest solvent in my shop. None of it matters, though. Even though it's nothing like the CA finish people know, it's still a CA finish & as such carries that stigma. No way in hell would I ever go back to spraying auto clear, just like you'd never try CA again. All I can do is try educating buyers & other makers alike that there is a spectrum just like with every other finish type, so judge accordingly. There's good CA finishing & there's bad CA finishing and there's a bunch in the middle. The stuff I use & the way I use it is not comparable in any way to the CA finish stereotype.
Haha...after the first 20 yrs you'll find begging is an acquired art also.
Tis the season
I haven't yet learned the art of begging. I'm still at the bribing stage.
JC
Coos Cues
Considering you're still allowed to touch her
Working as an automotive tech most of my life I found out real early.
Went to the alter and I said "I do"
Later that night she informed me "Not with those hands you don't"
Started wearing gloves and never stopped. I buy them by the case.
JC
I use solarez and their seal coat. As with any finish, big learning curve. No finish is easy peasy. I have about $500 into the curing booth. I like the UV cure method, and have had some issues with the Solarez, but seem to have solved them. This is a short video of my setup https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M2wFGGaGXO0
I have used CA and had good and bad results, same with water based finishes. I have tried a single part auto clear called Diamond Clear, and had chipping issues and main thing was once the can was opened, it would start to activate as it was air/moisture activated and I'd lose half a quart and at $60 a quart just wasn't worth it.
Biggest thing, IMO, is the prep before any finish. Most beginners sand down too fine of a grit and the sealer coat cannot grip well. Prep properly no matter what finish you use will improve the final result.
BTW, I second the Harbor Freight gloves....$5.99 with coupons
Dave
I have used CA and had good and bad results, same with water based finishes. I have tried a single part auto clear called Diamond Clear, and had chipping issues and main thing was once the can was opened, it would start to activate as it was air/moisture activated and I'd lose half a quart and at $60 a quart just wasn't worth it.
Biggest thing, IMO, is the prep before any finish. Most beginners sand down too fine of a grit and the sealer coat cannot grip well. Prep properly no matter what finish you use will improve the final result.
BTW, I second the Harbor Freight gloves....$5.99 with coupons
Dave
Considering you buy CA by the ounce that price is what most pay. I have tried and still use this as a finish and do find it the most convenient as well as having the best surface hardness. From my experience if you use it as both a sealer and finish then the separation thing shouldn't be an issue. And I find the best way to apply it is much like the epoxy coatings. I use the medium viscosity and use something to flatten it out. Then let it it spin and set, you can usually get enough on there in only a few coats. I soon abandoned the multiple thin coats with thin and paper towels.
I also use the auto clears which has it's benefits and draw backs as well. I do not spray the clears though I brush them on and have developed a good technique for doing it this way.
The one thing I am still not that confident on is if CA glues are UV protected and I know that the auto clears are.
In the interest of equal disclosure, the reader may want to know how CA & AC stack-up price wise.
My guess is that both Eric's CA and my AC are at the extremes and the opposite ends of their respective ranges.
While Eric's CA seems a bit pricey, I don't believe that we have the numbers to break down a cost per unit of coverage.
There's a real good chance that Eric would have those numbers so I'll ask him to share them if he's so inclined.
I can say for my system that it is extremely cost effective. 1 gal AC w/catalyst = $100. vs, 1 gal Eric's CA = $1,100.
Since I haven't shot any full/complete handles yet this year I can only give the numbers for shafts. I shoot a lot of them.
On avg. (it's a pretty consistent avg.), it takes 1 teaspoon of finish per shaft, catalyzed at a 4:1 ratio. It's done.
I generally shoot 3-4 shafts per session. Start to finish (no pun) = 1 hr. I get approx 1,000 catalyzed tsp/gal.
That's $0.10 mtrl cost per 'finished' shaft. I'll use at current rate, 1 gal/yr.
Please don't mistakenly slight the quality based on cost. My work including finish has to match Predator. Sometimes I exceed.
Cost shouldn't be the deciding factor but it should be a consideration. Health & safety should be top of your concerns.
The builder needs to be comfortable with what he's using. If it costs more or less, doesn't matter. His end result does.
I made my choice by trying many. Some cost more than others and quality differs. There is no correlation.
At any rate, you have a little more to go on. Find what's right for you. You won't know it's wrong until you try it. Lol
KJ
My guess is that both Eric's CA and my AC are at the extremes and the opposite ends of their respective ranges.
While Eric's CA seems a bit pricey, I don't believe that we have the numbers to break down a cost per unit of coverage.
There's a real good chance that Eric would have those numbers so I'll ask him to share them if he's so inclined.
I can say for my system that it is extremely cost effective. 1 gal AC w/catalyst = $100. vs, 1 gal Eric's CA = $1,100.
Since I haven't shot any full/complete handles yet this year I can only give the numbers for shafts. I shoot a lot of them.
On avg. (it's a pretty consistent avg.), it takes 1 teaspoon of finish per shaft, catalyzed at a 4:1 ratio. It's done.
I generally shoot 3-4 shafts per session. Start to finish (no pun) = 1 hr. I get approx 1,000 catalyzed tsp/gal.
That's $0.10 mtrl cost per 'finished' shaft. I'll use at current rate, 1 gal/yr.
Please don't mistakenly slight the quality based on cost. My work including finish has to match Predator. Sometimes I exceed.
Cost shouldn't be the deciding factor but it should be a consideration. Health & safety should be top of your concerns.
The builder needs to be comfortable with what he's using. If it costs more or less, doesn't matter. His end result does.
I made my choice by trying many. Some cost more than others and quality differs. There is no correlation.
At any rate, you have a little more to go on. Find what's right for you. You won't know it's wrong until you try it. Lol
KJ
My finish adds .2oz of weight to the finished cue, about the same as a bumper. That's the only measurement I have really attempted, and it doesn't account for the little bit that gets sanded away. It doesn't account for what goes on the shafts, either, nor what evaporates. A liberal guesstimate would be .3oz cured for every two shaft cue. The variable I do not know if cured weight vs. liquid weight, so I don't really know exactly how much it takes. I'll do my best to figure out an accurate way to measure what I use per cue.
I don't lose anything to over spray, although I do lose more to sanding than I did when I applied AC. In my experience, AC was by far the easiest to make look good. There were some cues I didn't even want to sand & polish because they were perfect already. It wasn't the easiest finish to use, as it involved a lot of different steps and required a good compressor with good dryer. I traded (in)convenience in set-up with (in)convenience in application. There will never be an argument from me that CA is easy to apply or ever goes on as smooth & flat as AC. Each method has its own challenges and learning curve.
I don't lose anything to over spray, although I do lose more to sanding than I did when I applied AC. In my experience, AC was by far the easiest to make look good. There were some cues I didn't even want to sand & polish because they were perfect already. It wasn't the easiest finish to use, as it involved a lot of different steps and required a good compressor with good dryer. I traded (in)convenience in set-up with (in)convenience in application. There will never be an argument from me that CA is easy to apply or ever goes on as smooth & flat as AC. Each method has its own challenges and learning curve.
my UV setup
this is what I use to cure Solarez....... shop light fixture and 2 black light bulbs... total cost $40 from Lowes.....http://www.facebook.com/groups/366326706736784/.... takes 5 to 8 minutes ............
this is what I use to cure Solarez....... shop light fixture and 2 black light bulbs... total cost $40 from Lowes.....http://www.facebook.com/groups/366326706736784/.... takes 5 to 8 minutes ............
Attachments
No takers?
Garbage day is today.....just send me your address and I'll send it to you free of charge.
You don't even have to blow me a kiss or hold my hand.
I just hate throwing things away I paid good money for but......
It's the best out there!
No takers?
Garbage day is today.....just send me your address and I'll send it to you free of charge.
You don't even have to blow me a kiss or hold my hand.
I just hate throwing things away I paid good money for but......
It's the best out there!
Send it to me. I got a box of wood already with your name on it, anyway. Got a couple local guys tinkering with cues who might wana play with it.
No takers?
Garbage day is today.....just send me your address and I'll send it to you free of charge.
You don't even have to blow me a kiss or hold my hand.
I just hate throwing things away I paid good money for but......
It's the best out there!
If Eric doesn't take them I will. I missed your offer earlier. I would never say it's the best out there, actually looking at another brand of UV finish that requires the type of strong UV setup that I made.
Just let me know and I'll pm my address.
DAve
Done...:wave:
I understand. Because of your variables it would be difficult to place a price-tag using undefined numbers.
The big picture approach would ask how many cues per gal. Then you could attribute cost per cue.
I was just wondering what cost comparison would be as I'm sure others were.
$1,100/gal will get someone's attention pretty quickly.
But given just the numbers you have, it may not be too far out of line. Possibly even comparable
Cost is but one consideration. End result matters more. I'd spend what I had to for the result I want.
Then of course I'd start shopping to make sure my costs had the best end result also.
It costs what it costs.
I agree with you on the 'flow-out' of the AC as it's being applied.
When it's laying on smooth and level as glass you know you're doing something right.
Sometimes it can be scary good and others, a nightmare. I have my variables also.
Continued Success to You, KJ
Oh there's no doubt CA is more efficient in terms of application. Very near 100% of what gets used actually stays on the cue. I remember with AC that I'd mix a little extra so that I wouldn't run out & cause the gun to spit & sputter, then throw away the unused. There was always a lot of over spray, too. Heck, the residual stuff that gets cleaned out of the gun after spraying is about as much CA as it takes to finish a cue. Add in the solvents, mixing filters, etc. and AC finish adds up pretty quick in terms of cost per cue. If I were to guess, I'd say the cost per cue between CA & AC are fairly comparable. What AC lacks in efficiency, it makes up for in application. It goes on so nice that very minimal sanding is required. CA has a lot less waste but is a PIA to apply level, and requires a bit more sanding, which is a skill in itself. Much of the hour it takes me to finish a cue is hands on time. Both finishes have their pros & cons for sure, but per cue I'd think probably cost about the same.
That's not indicative of all cyanoacrylate, only the one on your cues. It very well could have been prep, too. Every finish has its own criteria for prep. Prepping a cue like you would for auto clear is disastrous if you're using CA, and likewise. With auto clear, the cue must be devoid of any oils in order for the finish to adhere well. Lots of guys even seal the cue with epoxy so the finish sticks to the epoxy rather than wood. Any oils in or on the wood, natural or introduced, will cause the finish to not adhere well. Totally opposite with CA.
CA actually catalyzes with oil, just like auto clear has a catalyst. If you apply CA to the bare wood, it hasn't enough oil or moisture to catalyze. It'll still catalyze from moisture in the atmosphere, but won't have a bond with the wood. It'll essentially be a plastic sheath over the cue, which is why it chips so easily. Had the cue been oiled down well, it would have absorbed into the wood surface, and when the CA is applied it would catalyze with the oil. That gives an incredible bond to the cue that gives incredible durability. The CA adheres to the wood as well as the oil does, and literally cures as one with the oil that has already penetrated the surface of the wood. Chipping, flaking, lifting, etc. are signs that the finish didn't adhere well to the cue. That's generally an issue with preparation, not a defective finish.
The problem guys have so often with CA is that they treat it like other common cue finishes. It's not. It is not a stretch to say it's nearly polar opposite in terms of how you prep the cue. Things that typically apply, normal finish prep, doesn't work with CA. If a guy is going to use CA, he has to learn how. Until he does, it's going to be issue after issue, horror story after horror story. Unfortunately CA gets the blame, not the guy who doesn't know how to properly use it.
Do you have a suggestion for an oil that could be applied and how you prepare the cue for the oil application? This is something I hav not previously heard discussed in regards to CA finishes.