Players of the past and their Fargo...

[justnum]

Can the existing historic rankings be used as the order to calibrate a Fargo scale?

Assume the top 10 players from the Mosconi era represent the top 10 Fargo scores. Its a big assumption. Then assume the same distribution.

Instead of using 200 games for rankings, just use the rankings and then regression for Fargo distribution.

Let me know if you want different random keys for multiple simulations.

 

[nine_ball6970]

Can the existing historic rankings be used as the order to calibrate a Fargo scale?

Assume the top 10 players from the Mosconi era represent the top 10 Fargo scores. Its a big assumption. Then assume the same distribution.

Instead of using 200 games for rankings, just use the rankings and then regression for Fargo distribution.

Let me know if you want different random keys for multiple simulations.

I dont know if it would be easy or hard but a better way may be to get older tournament results which show TPAs for matches. Mark Wilson has said that .900 is world class pool. Maybe that is equivalent to 800? So take players from the past and see what their average TPA was over several tournaments. Then compare that to TPA of say filler or gorst.

http://www.sfbilliards.com/accustats/V2_N01.pdf

 

[fastone371]

Close up the barboxes and watch your heroes fr flop to a more realistic score.

It has been well understood that over 75% of all shot misses happen in the last 36” of travel.

Don’t see many of those length shots attempted on a 39”x78” playing surface.

Yet there are many shots that travel over 36" on a 40" x 80" table. According to your info players like SVB, Shaw, Woodward, etc. would never run out on a 10' table because they play on barboxes yet they do.

 

[hang-the-9]

This thread was derived with a conversation I had recently with a buddy. We had slightly differing views and I am just curious as to everyone's thoughts.

The question is this.....what would the estimated Fargo ratings be for players of yesteryear (80's and 90's) at the top of their game? Our discussion was whether a specific pro I watched on Youtube from back in the day would be an 800 Fargo by today's standards. I said he would be pushing 800 for sure.

Specifically, in no particular order, players like:
Strickland
Archer
Varner
Hall
Pierce
McCready
Sigel
Rempe
Ginky
Reyes (at his peak)
Bustamante
Parica
Hatch
Coltrain
Mizerak
Hopkins
Anyone else you can think of

Just thought it might be an interesting discussion for the board.

Thanks.

Fargo is not exactly a measure of absolute skill but by how well a player does vs others, once that happens you can measure their absolute skills. If you are comparing the Fargo of those players given their era playing against the players of their era, most of those would be in the 800s. McCready, Pierce, Ginky, Hatch, Coltrain and Hopkins may be under 800.

 

[billb]

Fargo is not exactly a measure of absolute skill but by how well a player does vs others, once that happens you can measure their absolute skills. If you are comparing the Fargo of those players given their era playing against the players of their era, most of those would be in the 800s. McCready, Pierce, Ginky, Hatch, Coltrain and Hopkins may be under 800.

I never thought of that angle, but that's very true. I was using Fargo as a measurement of skills as opposed to how they do against others. Very, very good point.

I know its all relevant to a point, but at the same time, you hit the nail on the head. Thank you for your response.

 

[justnum]

I dont know if it would be easy or hard but a better way may be to get older tournament results which show TPAs for matches. Mark Wilson has said that .900 is world class pool. Maybe that is equivalent to 800? So take players from the past and see what their average TPA was over several tournaments. Then compare that to TPA of say filler or gorst.

http://www.sfbilliards.com/accustats/V2_N01.pdf

If you can convert TPA to the fargo data format please post. Its a good idea, I need time to think it out.

TPA is about the perfect game if the match data for the TPA is there it could be used. If not then estimating Fargo using TPA will take a few testing cycles to debug.

 

[BlueRaider]

When it comes to being able to hang with today's elites, Earl and Efren in their primes pass the eye test for the old timers.

Both of them were still relevant and competitive during a time when the modern player was starting to emerge. Earl won the World 9 Ball in 2002 and Wu, who would likely be a top 10 player today if he were consistently active, won it in 2005. The end of Earl's prime and the beginning of Wu's nearly overlap.

Efren won the IPT when plenty of today's pros were already known and competing. He won the DCC 9 Ball and 10 Ball in 2010 when the modern game/playstyle was well-established.

Given that, I think it's fair to say that both Earl and Efren would have clocked in it at 830+ Fargo (given today's rating standards to compare them to their peers) as late as 2002 and perhaps much later than that for Efren.

I don't know that Gorst does anything save with the jump cue that either of them couldn't do in their primes. I do agree with Stu here, however, that Filler is the best player of all time and plays with a preternatural level of accuracy and confidence that neither prime Earl or Efren possessed. Doesn't mean that 1994 Earl or Efren couldn't beat him in a tournament for the money. But his standard of play just seems ever-so-slightly higher than anyone who has come before.

 

[nine_ball6970]

If you can convert TPA to the fargo data format please post. Its a good idea, I need time to think it out.

TPA is about the perfect game if the match data for the TPA is there it could be used. If not then estimating Fargo using TPA will take a few testing cycles to debug.

Well the pdf i attached earlier has 94 races to 11 along with TPAs for each match from one tournament. There were 23 TPAs of 900 or higher with highest being strickland at 943. More in the 890+ range.

I think if you were able to get an average TPA for an 800 fargo level player today then that could be a pretty good way to compare to TPAs of players in the pdf.

No clue how fargo would calculate for each player if there is no baseline player to start with.

I feel like the pdf could yield a lot of good information if someone knows how to get it to work.

 

[straightline]

Then: them.
Now: exponentially different thems.

Still seems like apples and oranges.
And grapes and bananas and figs and melons and berries...

 

[maha]

filler is great no argument but isnt the greatest ever by far as he hasnt stood the test of time.
you can say he has beaten everyone for a short period of time and be right.

and in the past there have been some 9 ball players that beat everyone but faded out and few even remember their names now.

 

[straightline]

filler is great no argument but isnt the greatest ever by far as he hasnt stood the test of time.
you can say he has beaten everyone for a short period of time and be right.

and in the past there have been some 9 ball players that beat everyone but faded out and few even remember their names now.

Yeah. More quantifiers. Many capable players have gotten it right for a year or three and subsequently drifted out of view and probably spec.

I still think the flaw in this topic is the _then_ defense wasn't as smart or clever as it has become. The psychology now is at least more complex. It's no longer just the one hottie mafia. It's multiple countries and their respective cultures/politics vying for attention. There's instant com now and plays can be engineered and modified in real time.
Old hottie mafia? Call somebody and have 'em wait downstream...

 

[sjm]

filler is great no argument but isnt the greatest ever by far as he hasnt stood the test of time.

Yes, he has stood the test of time. Filler has been in dead stroke for eight years. Ever since his MVP effort at the 2017 Mosconi Cup, he has been a superstar. His resume of major titles eclipses almost all who have ever played the game. He doesn't need to make another ball to be in the conversation with Mosconi, Greenleaf, Sigel and Reyes. and what he has achieved in his first decade as a pro eclipses anything that they ever accomplished in that same period.

Agreed he's not the best ever by much, by I can't find a way to make an argument for any player I've ever seen having been Filler's equal, and I've seen every elite player of the last 50 years.

 

[L.S. Dennis]

Nick Varner is a 788 at 75 years old.

I think most of those old school players where in the 810-830 range in their primes. I think they could have been higher if they had the knowledge of safes, kicking etc that players have access to today.

Anyone over 800 can pocket balls and run out. Now it is more about how they handle safety exchanges vs opponents of similar skill that determines how high they go in my opinion.

Filler's fargo continues to climb as he becomes more polished in that department.

This is about as reasonable an answer as we're ever going to get. It's the old Marciano vs Ali thing, who would have won? We'll never know because time travel is only possible in Star Trek!

 

[BasementDweller]

Well the pdf i attached earlier has 94 races to 11 along with TPAs for each match from one tournament. There were 23 TPAs of 900 or higher with highest being strickland at 943. More in the 890+ range.

I think if you were able to get an average TPA for an 800 fargo level player today then that could be a pretty good way to compare to TPAs of players in the pdf.

No clue how fargo would calculate for each player if there is no baseline player to start with.

I feel like the pdf could yield a lot of good information if someone knows how to get it to work.

I think TPA's are at least slightly and maybe considerably relative to the rules and table conditions. So a .940 on a 4 3/4" Gold Crown, with template rack, and 9 on the spot, is different then that same .940 with the Matchroom version of 9 Ball on a tight Diamond.

***edit***
I know they didn't use templates back in the day. Just using that as an example.

 

[justnum]

I think TPA's are at least slightly and maybe considerably relative to the rules and table conditions. So a .940 on a 4 3/4" Gold Crown, with template rack, and 9 on the spot, is different then that same .940 with the Matchroom version of 9 Ball on a tight Diamond.

***edit***
I know they didn't use templates back in the day. Just using that as an example.

The ranking distribution should still be the same for talent. Your variations could play a small role in a small study about small variations.

Using an aggregate TPA and then unpacking it is silly and fun work for a processor. Accu stat has film and match data, however digitizing can take time.

 

[justnum]

Well the pdf i attached earlier has 94 races to 11 along with TPAs for each match from one tournament. There were 23 TPAs of 900 or higher with highest being strickland at 943. More in the 890+ range.

I think if you were able to get an average TPA for an 800 fargo level player today then that could be a pretty good way to compare to TPAs of players in the pdf.

No clue how fargo would calculate for each player if there is no baseline player to start with.

I feel like the pdf could yield a lot of good information if someone knows how to get it to work.

We are not starting with the base line, we are starting with the peak talent level, it is already known.

Finding the minimum pro speed for placing or competing beyond all loses would be the benefits of understanding the entry level fargo ratings.

If someone thinks they could have competed with the old boys, then the minimum Fargo would be based on an algorithm, I can make up a number right now and be faster. Its like minimum launch for projectile motion, I might be speaking advanced computer science.

Its like recruiting, you have to find your best locations for best output.

Unless Earl becomes a robot, his peak years are behind him.

 

[poolnut7879]

I dont know if it would be easy or hard but a better way may be to get older tournament results which show TPAs for matches. Mark Wilson has said that .900 is world class pool. Maybe that is equivalent to 800? So take players from the past and see what their average TPA was over several tournaments. Then compare that to TPA of say filler or gorst.

http://www.sfbilliards.com/accustats/V2_N01.pdf

Shooting 900 is shooting a 900 TPA. A 700 FR could shoot a 900 TPA. Shoot 900 TPA over a tournament and I would say your a 800 or higher FR.

 

[justnum]

The beauty of TPA and Accu stats is the perfect game statistic.

Fargo does not have that, there is no ideal Fargo rate because the initial assumption is we all start at the same number.

Fargo is more useful at getting people to register for an app and create a global database of players using billiard match data.

If anyone counterfeits billiard data, then WOW. Then I am about to enter a new world of warcraft.

 

[nine_ball6970]

Shooting 900 is shooting a 900 TPA. A 700 FR could shoot a 900 TPA. Shoot 900 TPA over a tournament and I would say your a 800 or higher FR.

did you look at the pdf? It was a tournament from 1986, Strickland 886, varner 883 and reyes 872 were the top three TPAs for the whole tournament. Over 100 games played for each.

A different tournament around the same time had sigel at 881, strickland at 880 and reyes at 879.

Here is an SJM quote from another thread:
" I'd guess only about five pro players play at an average TPA of .900. It's easier to get to Fargo 800 than to average a .900 TPA in all tournament play.

I'd call .880 world class, and my guess is that it maps roughly to a Fargo 800."

The fifth player on the Fargo top 100 today is SVB at 836. I'd say his assessment is probably pretty accurate.

 

[trfitters]

This argument comes up in golf all the time and the answer is the same here most likely. Who was better? Jack or Tiger? It's not that simple. Different equipment. Different conditions. Different competition. If you take Tiger in his prime and Jack in his prime, Tiger would absolutely destroy Jack. The top 100 on the PGA Tour today would destroy Jack. Do you think Jack with modern equipment could compete? Most likely but it's not really provable. Tiger created athletes in the golf world. The point is it can't be proven. I think in golf especially, the competition is what is so different. There are so many more world class players now then there were 30 years ago. But you can't say those guys wouldn't have upped their games and abilities based on what the competition is today. I think it's very similar in pool but not quite to the extent of what Tiger did to golf. Plus the equipment and conditions are vastly different in golf whereas pool is pretty much the same.