Pool cue building equipment For Sale - Early 2014 Delivery

K

Kaydon

Registered
KJ Cues said:
Well this is certainly interesting.
You dig-up a thread from 10 mos. ago to send a public (not private) message
to a cue-maker who hasn't built a cue in two yrs. due to health issues.
You really think he reads this forum or are you making your claim for victim status.
Your beef is with Lee and has no place on this forum.
I'm about tired of people bashing CMs whenever the urge strikes them.
Take it to Lee or find a support-forum that's willing to hold your hand.
Just don't bring it here.

Any Questions???

KJ
Click to expand...

If most CM's were responsible adults running a responsible business they would either have insurance to cover their ass, or have employee's that could take care of any issue that would arise if they got sick.
I feel sorry for the CM who got sick and could not complete the work, but he did state in his own advertisement in this forum that he would be selling after he completed his commitment to those who had purchased cues from him. If the person questioning as to if he will receive his cue from the OP before the OP has sold all of his equipment bothers you, you are either personally involved with the OP or you are one of those irresponsible ones who refuse to hire others or have insurance.
CM's need to understand that they are in business. As so they need to run their business like a business instead of trying to be an artist. If all they want to be is an artist, then they need to hire someone to run their business.
The customer is always right. Just because you are building a cue for someone does not mean that the buyer is your friend. They are a customer. The sooner CM's realize how to run a business the better off we all will be.
One thing I have learned here over the last few months are that most CM's building cues are only doing it so that they can get name recognition and not run a real business. Personally I would rather retire a millionaire doing repairs, refinish, and leather wraps than to build customs. To me it is not about the name recognition it is about taking care of my customers. It's just too bad that most CM's don't get that. If they did we would not see posts here about CM's not fulfilling their obligations to their clients.
 
pescadoman

pescadoman

Randy
Silver Member
Kaydon said:
If most CM's were responsible adults running a responsible business they would either have insurance to cover their ass, or have employee's that could take care of any issue that would arise if they got sick.
I feel sorry for the CM who got sick and could not complete the work, but he did state in his own advertisement in this forum that he would be selling after he completed his commitment to those who had purchased cues from him. If the person questioning as to if he will receive his cue from the OP before the OP has sold all of his equipment bothers you, you are either personally involved with the OP or you are one of those irresponsible ones who refuse to hire others or have insurance.
CM's need to understand that they are in business. As so they need to run their business like a business instead of trying to be an artist. If all they want to be is an artist, then they need to hire someone to run their business.
The customer is always right. Just because you are building a cue for someone does not mean that the buyer is your friend. They are a customer. The sooner CM's realize how to run a business the better off we all will be.
One thing I have learned here over the last few months are that most CM's building cues are only doing it so that they can get name recognition and not run a real business. Personally I would rather retire a millionaire doing repairs, refinish, and leather wraps than to build customs. To me it is not about the name recognition it is about taking care of my customers. It's just too bad that most CM's don't get that. If they did we would not see posts here about CM's not fulfilling their obligations to their clients.
Click to expand...

How many millions have you made in the cue business? Insurance.....hire employees? Believe it or not, not a whole lot of guys can afford to pay employees in this business. Even if they could swing it, what do you trust a guy to do who has never built a cue and what are you going to pay him? Machine lathes kill people. Band saws cut off fingers and so do routers. Table saw, jointer, mill....ect.

If the guy took your money and never gave you a product, then that is different(and wrong). However, you make it sound like he simply never delivered a cue(because of health issues).

Furthermore, name recognition and reputation go hand and hand. Well unless you are a multibilliondollar corporation like the banking industry who can screw you anyway they please because the right people get paid. The only difference here is that someone might reply who actually gives a shit.
 
RBC

RBC

Deceased
I think many people who get into cuemaking do so because they think it will be fairly profitable. After all, the material costs are pretty low, and the retail sales prices can be very high. I think they have all good intentions of running a good business, they just don't realize that it's just not that lucrative of a market. Even for the bigger volume companies.

So what happens is they soon realize that it's very difficult to get your name out there. The cue building side is pretty great, but the selling side can be pretty tough.

Unfortunately, it's happened far too many times, and most likely will continue to happen.

I recommend that the buyer take a good look at the "business" they are buying from. Some are 1 man shops that have been building great cues for a lot of years and have a huge happy customer base. Some are 1 man shops just getting started. They are willing to sell for a little less because they don't have the reputation as of yet. And others, such as us at OB Cues, are established manufacturing companies that have all the employees and insurance that is expected of a corporation. And even with that, companies still go out of business all the time. It's a tough market place this billiard world.

Please don't take this as all un-established cuemakers will let you down. That certainly isn't the case. In fact, I would think that far more do go one and establish that good reputation.

Unfortunately, the cuemaker in question fell into that second category, and didn't make it. He did build nice cues from what I saw. I remember he was doing raffles for a cue build of your choice. I thought it was a rather smart way to get some cues out there and start to create that reputation. Unfortunately, either there just wasn't enough in it for him, or he wasn't quite the business man he thought he was and he just decided to bail out like so many before him.

Those customers who choose to take the risk with the up and coming cue maker need to realize the gamble. The fact is that there is more risk of things like this happening, and not much that can be done about it. If you don't want the risk, buy from an established company or cuemaker.

I wish the one who lost a cue all the best. It's an unfortunate situation. I know this one personally as one of my employees lost a cue to this particular cue maker as well.


Good luck with getting your cue. But don't hold your breath.


Royce Bunnell
www.obcues.com
 
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K

KJ Cues

Pro Cue Builder & Repair
Silver Member
Kaydon said:
If most CM's were responsible adults running a responsible business they would either have insurance to cover their ass, or have employee's that could take care of any issue that would arise if they got sick.
I feel sorry for the CM who got sick and could not complete the work, but he did state in his own advertisement in this forum that he would be selling after he completed his commitment to those who had purchased cues from him. If the person questioning as to if he will receive his cue from the OP before the OP has sold all of his equipment bothers you, you are either personally involved with the OP or you are one of those irresponsible ones who refuse to hire others or have insurance.
CM's need to understand that they are in business. As so they need to run their business like a business instead of trying to be an artist. If all they want to be is an artist, then they need to hire someone to run their business.
The customer is always right. Just because you are building a cue for someone does not mean that the buyer is your friend. They are a customer. The sooner CM's realize how to run a business the better off we all will be.
One thing I have learned here over the last few months are that most CM's building cues are only doing it so that they can get name recognition and not run a real business. Personally I would rather retire a millionaire doing repairs, refinish, and leather wraps than to build customs. To me it is not about the name recognition it is about taking care of my customers. It's just too bad that most CM's don't get that. If they did we would not see posts here about CM's not fulfilling their obligations to their clients.
Click to expand...

So the bashing continues. A thread gets dug-up from almost a yr. ago by
a client of a CM that doesn't post here anymore and you see this as an opportunity
to educate CMs on business management. Thank You Prof. Kaydon for Econ-101.

First off, I don't know what this thread has to do with you but since you've made
35 posts in 5 yrs, it must be something special to bring you out of the woodwork.
Here's why your theory of insurance and hired help doesn't get a salute.
Until the AHCA, insurance was a pipe-dream.
I'm 66 yrs old and I smoke. I'm in perfect health but none the less,
basic coverage for a single, self-employed individual in my area was $1500/mo.
How many CMs do you think can afford that and still make a profit. Probably none.
Lee didn't have insurance which is why he had to give-up the cue operation and return
to the machine shop where he had insurance. He had health issues and they needed to be addressed.

Since you've brought up the subject of hired-help, let's discuss that. Hired-help is a PITA.
No one works in my shop but me.
It's my name on the cue and it's my name attached to every bit of work done in my shop.
People don't pay me to have an assistant build their cue or any portion of it.
It takes time to train someone, time that I don't have.
By the time I teach someone how to do what I ask, I could have done the task 10 times over.
Where's the benefit??
Hired-help is always in the way, they expect to be paid and when they learn something, they leave.

OK, back to the bashing of a CM. As stated, this thread is close to a yr. old. Where does it end???
I thought that it had but I've been wrong before.
Is there something to be gained from whipping a dead horse? If so, I don't see it.
Wait a minute, yes I do.
It's called 'spite'. There are plenty of definitions for the word and a lot of them fit.
It's also one of woman's greatest weapons.

"you are either personally involved with the OP or you are one of those irresponsible ones
who refuse to hire others or have insurance." You got me, I'm guilty to all of the above.
Except that I'm not in with Lee and his grand scheme. I like Lee though I've never met him.
We did some business and I've had his cues come thru my shop. He does good work, much like my own.
If you haven't done business with Lee then you have no skin in the game. What are you doing here???
Please don't tell me you crawled out of the woodwork just so you could pile-on.

KJ
 
cuesblues

cuesblues

cue accumulator
Silver Member
KJ Cues said:
Well this is certainly interesting.
You dig-up a thread from 10 mos. ago to send a public (not private) message
to a cue-maker who hasn't built a cue in two yrs. due to health issues.
You really think he reads this forum or are you making your claim for victim status.
Your beef is with Lee and has no place on this forum.
I'm about tired of people bashing CMs whenever the urge strikes them.
Take it to Lee or find a support-forum that's willing to hold your hand.
Just don't bring it here.

Any Questions???

KJ
Click to expand...

Lee is a special type of con-man, using the raffle-con put him in a unique category of con artist.
He obviously knew he was done while still taking money, and what about trying to con somebody out of $12,000 for equipment in early 2013, for an early 2014 delivery.
As if that would of ended well.
I have more respect for cuemakers than anyone on the planet which is the main reason why I own 150 cues, but Lee Pepper always deserves to be called out as a con artist, and I never considered him to be a cuemaker.
 
K

Kaydon

Registered
pescadoman said:
How many millions have you made in the cue business? Insurance.....hire employees? Believe it or not, not a whole lot of guys can afford to pay employees in this business. Even if they could swing it, what do you trust a guy to do who has never built a cue and what are you going to pay him? Machine lathes kill people. Band saws cut off fingers and so do routers. Table saw, jointer, mill....ect.

If the guy took your money and never gave you a product, then that is different(and wrong). However, you make it sound like he simply never delivered a cue(because of health issues).

Furthermore, name recognition and reputation go hand and hand. Well unless you are a multibilliondollar corporation like the banking industry who can screw you anyway they please because the right people get paid. The only difference here is that someone might reply who actually gives a shit.
Click to expand...
Where do I start?
First of all I have been doing cue repair as well as running a pool room which sold 7 years ago for the better part of 30 years. No I have not made a million dollars doing repair work. I was speaking figuratively. Your excuse that you cannot afford to have insurance or hire employees is just that...An excuse. There is no way no how that a one man shop can keep up with demand as a cue makers name grows and he keep his customers happy. There are people who are willing to go on a 5 year waiting list, but the vast majority are not.

"Believe it or not, not a whole lot of guys can afford to pay employees in this business. Even if they could swing it, what do you trust a guy to do who has never built a cue and what are you going to pay him?"
Answer that with another question: If you cannot afford to be in this business and do it the right way why be in it at all? Secondly if a guy has never built a cue I am not going to put my hard earned money in his hands and trust him to build something that I could actually play with when it was done.
I read all you guys *****ing about how much machinery cost, the toxins you breathe in when you do things the wrong way when it comes to finishing, equipment cost, on and on it goes. Then you want to charge $350.00 to $450.00 for a sneaky that took you maybe 10 hours to make.
I am not bashing anyone because I feel a man has a right to go his own way in life, and do what makes him happy. But if you guys cannot make a profit then fulfill your obligations and get out of the business. Go do something that will take care of your families and yourselves. Leave the *****ing to us customers who have to go on a 5 year waiting list and pay $750.00 for a Merry Widow upfront then the CM goes out of business because he cuts off a hand and cannot complete the work.
Believe it or not, I own all the same machinery that you guys do. When someone asks me to do work for them I charge for it and make a tidy little profit. I have insurance, and when I am backed up I have taken the time to train others to help me. I have a regular job that I make a decent living at. I do the repair work as secondary income. I am not in it for the fame nor the money, but a man who does not have a plan in business or life for that matter is destined to have what he has built taken away from him. Unfortunately most of the time it is his own fault for not preparing for the worst. That means insurance and having someone around that can pick up the slack if something happens to you.
Sorry to be so dark, but this is why we have seen what we have seen over the last year or so with cue makers not fulfilling their obligations to their clients. My earlier comments were straight and to the point. Nothing untrue about them and all coming from someone with experience.
If you do not have the money to buy machinery, establish an inventory, and sit on that inventory while you build your cues to sell then stay in the repair business. It is that simple. You are not a CM if you only produce a few cues each year, you are a hobbyist who makes a living some other way and builds cues for the enjoyment of building cues.
There is a reason why you can buy almost anything you need to build a cue other than doing custom inlay work. When I have to build a shaft for someone it does not take me a month. Someone wants one I have plenty ready for the final pass. I did not buy them as cones, I bought them partially tapered. If someone wants a custom taper I can do it in about an hour and have it in clear in about 2 hours. No, I did not cut it down from a square and sit on it for 2 years taking a pass off of it every 3 months so I do not have that story to tell to the client about how great a Shaft Builder I am, but the customer does not care how great you are or how hard you worked to get them their shaft. All they want to know is how much is it going to cost, is it good grade material, and when to expect it.
You can take it or leave it as far as I am concerned, but I know my business has to out live me in order for my children to be taken care of. When I die I want it to still be around taking care of my family. Same goes for cue makers if they want the same things. At some point you have to make an actual business out of it if you want it to take care of your families and the business not die along with you. If you can't that means hiring employees, having insurance, maybe a business manager, and not taking so damn long to make a frikin cue.
Personally I will leave the cue building to the Jim Mcdermott's "rest his soul" and Bob Meucci's of the world who got it right. They built companies, empire's in this industry. And I hear you already saying that you will not be compared to any production facility...Trust me I understand the Custom definition in custom cue, but even companies that build custom bikes or rv's or whatever are still companies right? They still have employee's, they have insurance. So the argument that "my name is on it and I am not going to let anyone do anything if my name is on it" is a crock of BS. If my name is on it than you better damn well know that I am going to supervise everything that is done to it, but that does not mean that I have to spend my time doing some trivial task that I can train a monkey to do under the right supervision. Besides the fact I know I can go right to any of the production facilities and pick out any design I like and have it customized to my specific needs or desire, have it in a couple weeks and not have to use my first born as payment. Is that not custom?
Just would be nice if everyone who even thought about jumping in this thing would pattern their aspirations after men who have gone before them and been successful at it instead of thinking only about themselves, their hobby or their artistry with no regard for the customer that falls by the wayside because the CM had a health issue.
As far as the CM goes that did have the health issue? If you all really wanted to have the so called bashing stop against your so called friend then why don't you offer to complete the cues that are outstanding so this guy can go on with life? He can sell his stuff, get out of the business and maybe if he is well enough make some real money to take care of his family.
 
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pescadoman

pescadoman

Randy
Silver Member
Kaydon said:
Where do I start?
First of all I have been doing cue repair as well as running a pool room which sold 7 years ago for the better part of 30 years. No I have not made a million dollars doing repair work. I was speaking figuratively. Your excuse that you cannot afford to have insurance or hire employees is just that...An excuse. There is no way no how that a one man shop can keep up with demand as a cue makers name grows and he keep his customers happy. There are people who are willing to go on a 5 year waiting list, but the vast majority are not.

"Believe it or not, not a whole lot of guys can afford to pay employees in this business. Even if they could swing it, what do you trust a guy to do who has never built a cue and what are you going to pay him?"
Answer that with another question: If you cannot afford to be in this business and do it the right way why be in it at all? Secondly if a guy has never built a cue I am not going to put my hard earned money in his hands and trust him to build something that I could actually play with when it was done.
I read all you guys *****ing about how much machinery cost, the toxins you breathe in when you do things the wrong way when it comes to finishing, equipment cost, on and on it goes. Then you want to charge $350.00 to $450.00 for a sneaky that took you maybe 10 hours to make.
I am not bashing anyone because I feel a man has a right to go his own way in life, and do what makes him happy. But if you guys cannot make a profit then fulfill your obligations and get out of the business. Go do something that will take care of your families and yourselves. Leave the *****ing to us customers who have to go on a 5 year waiting list and pay $750.00 for a Merry Widow upfront then the CM goes out of business because he cuts off a hand and cannot complete the work.
Believe it or not, I own all the same machinery that you guys do. When someone asks me to do work for them I charge for it and make a tidy little profit. I have insurance, and when I am backed up I have taken the time to train others to help me. I have a regular job that I make a decent living at. I do the repair work as secondary income. I am not in it for the fame nor the money, but a man who does not have a plan in business or life for that matter is destined to have what he has built taken away from him. Unfortunately most of the time it is his own fault for not preparing for the worst. That means insurance and having someone around that can pick up the slack if something happens to you.
Sorry to be so dark, but this is why we have seen what we have seen over the last year or so with cue makers not fulfilling their obligations to their clients. My earlier comments were straight and to the point. Nothing untrue about them and all coming from someone with experience.
If you do not have the money to buy machinery, establish an inventory, and sit on that inventory while you build your cues to sell then stay in the repair business. It is that simple. You are not a CM if you only produce a few cues each year, you are a hobbyist who makes a living some other way and builds cues for the enjoyment of building cues.
There is a reason why you can buy almost anything you need to build a cue other than doing custom inlay work. When I have to build a shaft for someone it does not take me a month. Someone wants one I have plenty ready for the final pass. I did not buy them as cones, I bought them partially tapered. If someone wants a custom taper I can do it in about an hour and have it in clear in about 2 hours. No, I did not cut it down from a square and sit on it for 2 years taking a pass off of it every 3 months so I do not have that story to tell to the client about how great a Shaft Builder I am, but the customer does not care how great you are or how hard you worked to get them their shaft. All they want to know is how much is it going to cost, is it good grade material, and when to expect it.
You can take it or leave it as far as I am concerned, but I know my business has to out live me in order for my children to be taken care of. When I die I want it to still be around taking care of my family. Same goes for cue makers if they want the same things. At some point you have to make an actual business out of it if you want it to take care of your families and the business not die along with you. If you can't that means hiring employees, having insurance, maybe a business manager, and not taking so damn long to make a frikin cue.
Personally I will leave the cue building to the Jim Mcdermott's "rest his soul" and Bob Meucci's of the world who got it right. They built companies, empire's in this industry. And I hear you already saying that you will not be compared to any production facility...Trust me I understand the Custom definition in custom cue, but even companies that build custom bikes or rv's or whatever are still companies right? They still have employee's, they have insurance. So the argument that "my name is on it and I am not going to let anyone do anything if my name is on it" is a crock of BS. If my name is on it than you better damn well know that I am going to supervise everything that is done to it, but that does not mean that I have to spend my time doing some trivial task that I can train a monkey to do under the right supervision. Besides the fact I know I can go right to any of the production facilities and pick out any design I like and have it customized to my specific needs or desire, have it in a couple weeks and not have to use my first born as payment. Is that not custom?
Just would be nice if everyone who even thought about jumping in this thing would pattern their aspirations after men who have gone before them and been successful at it instead of thinking only about themselves, their hobby or their artistry with no regard for the customer that falls by the wayside because the CM had a health issue.
As far as the CM goes that did have the health issue? If you all really wanted to have the so called bashing stop against your so called friend then why don't you offer to complete the cues that are outstanding so this guy can go on with life? He can sell his stuff, get out of the business and maybe if he is well enough make some real money to take care of his family.
Click to expand...


I guess you know better than KJ and Ryan sir. No use trying to reason or explain anything to you. You're only hear to *****...and doing a great job. I fully expect to see yet another 1000 character reply about how smart you are.
 
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cueman

cueman

AzB Gold Member
Gold Member
Silver Member
ratcues said:
Please elaborate on how to make millions doing cue repairs.
Click to expand...

You don't get to be a millionaire doing repairs. You have to make the millions first in another business and then do repairs to keep busy when you retire. There are a lot of retired people who buy a lathe to give them something to do when retired. I chose this business as a young man and retirement does not look to be in the cards for me unless something changes.
 
ratcues

ratcues

No yodeling, please.
Silver Member
cueman said:
You don't get to be a millionaire doing repairs. You have to make the millions first in another business and then do repairs to keep busy when you retire. There are a lot of retired people who buy a lathe to give them something to do when retired. I chose this business as a young man and retirement does not look to be in the cards for me unless something changes.
Click to expand...

It's obvious now that we just don't know what the heck we are doing. Maybe we should rework our business plan...





<~~waiting for my pot of gold...
 
galipeau

galipeau

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
My board of directors (aka: girlfriend) tells me I need to stop buying sh*t and make something already. The millions are going to take a while...
 
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JoeyInCali

JoeyInCali

Maker of Joey Bautista Cues
Silver Member
Believe it or not, I own all the same machinery that you guys do.
Click to expand...
Can we see you pics of your machinery ?
I love looking at machinery.
I'd be interested to see your taper machine.
 
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