Poolgame: Kill the King

[DaWizard]

Shot: https://pad.chalkysticks.com/e1de1

The ball being a traitor. Thats an interesting idea to explore! When I played it irl it did feel overwhelming allready, so it might be too much.

Im going to update the Dutch version and hope to do another playtest and then have a final(ish) version.

 

[DaWizard]

Assassin: Traditionally, an assassin is often associated with working in secrecy or clandestinely. The nature of their work typically involves covert operations and discreet elimination of specific targets. The element of surprise and the ability to strike without being detected are commonly attributed to assassins.

Damnit. This is exactly the assassin. So maybe the 2 should not be named Assassin. Or is Kingslayer an accepted word? It sounds off to me, but maybe its not. After all Kingslayer is the precise term and explains the role... How about:
- executioner
- hitman
- sniper

 

[DaWizard]

And thinking about giving more than one life according to skill. Respot the King after your shot, anywhere on table.

Beginner: King has 3 lives
Intermediate: 2 lives
Advanced: 1 live

 

[Pin]

And thinking about giving more than one life according to skill. Respot the King after your shot, anywhere on table.

Beginner: King has 3 lives
Intermediate: 2 lives
Advanced: 1 live

You might end up with a long endgame, if both players are down to the king but have two or three lives. An extra assassin or something could be a good handicap, but might be too strong. Two king-balls? Lots of options, I guess.

 

[Pin]

The link didn't work so I recreated it. I'm staying hidden! https://pad.chalkysticks.com/93e9b

 

[DaWizard]

I wouldnt know what to do here. If I move in sight of you im almost always risking a bankshot. And I dont gain anything because you'll just move out of sight.

The suggested alternative rule would be:
You must move the opponent's ball, if you don't they opponent recieved a point. He can buy the 1ball with that point. This 1ball immediatly gets the role of kingslayer since the opponent only has a lone king. Place the ball after your shot, like any respotted or recruited ball.

This poses another problem: if you allow to place it anywhere on the table, it would be smart to take a shot and then glue the recruited ball awkwardly to the opponent's King. A way to counter this is to change the respot/recruitment rule:

A new ball cannot be placed on the half where the opponent's king is currently.

Not just in the endgame, but during the entire game.

 

[Pin]

Yes, maybe both players could hit the 8 between the two balls until someone made a mistake, but it might not be enjoyable pool.

We could play this one out with the requirement to move the opponent's ball. (Or a general rule that you had to move another ball and not the wall would also cover this situation.)
Or just call it a stalemate if you prefer.

 

[DaWizard]

Yeah lets continu with the rule that you must move the opponent's ball. I took the liberty to move the 8 and play a safety to 'restart'. Not super safe btw.

I played your ball straight into head rail, bounces back to the other side. A bit of topspin to put my king near the rail.

Shot: https://pad.chalkysticks.com/9b891

 

[Pin]

I'll bank you back up table: https://pad.chalkysticks.com/2bc2a

 

[DaWizard]

I try to pot: https://pad.chalkysticks.com/9e63c
(irl my cueball wouldve rolled way at least once in these shots. I never really practiced those properly.)

 

[Pin]

I'll try the thin cut but miss: https://pad.chalkysticks.com/67652

 

[DaWizard]

I'll try the thin cut but miss: https://pad.chalkysticks.com/67652

A kickshot safety and hope to pot in the corner but I miss: https://pad.chalkysticks.com/e503b

So I think we kind of see how this pans out now. In real life one of us blunders or makes a nice bank/kick shot.

 

[Pin]

Yes, to decide whether it's enjoyable would depend on play-testing, and maybe peoples' level. There could be scope for trying to hook behind the 8 that might be interesting.

Happy to do another test if you like. Let me know what rules.

 

[DaWizard]

Yes, to decide whether it's enjoyable would depend on play-testing, and maybe peoples' level. There could be scope for trying to hook behind the 8 that might be interesting.

Happy to do another test if you like. Let me know what rules.

Ive updated the Dutch rules with our playtesting and the live testing. The guy I played with is currently reading them and will give feedback. He said he knew someone else who likes a tactical game. So I asked if we could do another playtest with the latest ruleset.
When I got some spare time I will translate the pdf to English with ChatGPT and edit the pictures. If all that is done I think we're reaching version 1.0

We could do a playtest with the current, latest rules? Ill first translate it. Shouldnt take more than a couple days.

And maybe we try out Hot Rail? We did a couple games IRL and it was fun, but it didn't end we had a couple ideas to improve it, but it still needs *something*.

 

[DaWizard]

Yes, to decide whether it's enjoyable would depend on play-testing, and maybe peoples' level. There could be scope for trying to hook behind the 8 that might be interesting.

Happy to do another test if you like. Let me know what rules.

I think in real life it's pretty entertaining. Do or die situation. Here we can't really simulate the luck/skill of the situation.

 

[DaWizard]

I've translated the latest version!

See here for the PDF: Kill the King - ENG - v0.7

You, and others, can add comments if you see stuff that is unclear of whatever.

 

[Pin]

The rules look great. You've put some work into the design!

Some comments:

"Legal and illegal ball potting" (p.3) - This section doesn't clarify what happens if you call one ball, but sink multiple balls. Do the uncalled balls come up? Or all the pocketed balls?
What if you call multiple balls but only make one?

"Bring a reservist into play" (p.3) - I think this section should clearly say that the balls are recruited in order from lowest number to highest, unless they were re-ordered. (Alternatively, a simpler option would be to let people recruit any ball.)

"A reservist cannot be placed on the half where the enemy King is located." (p.3) - I don't think I like this rule. I can see the benefit of stopping the recruited ball being placed next to the king for a dead combination/carom, but it makes the rules complex. If the rule was simply you used your original half of the table, the opponent has a tactical reason to keep his king in his half, and you have a tactical opportunity to get the king into your own half. Then if you do recruit a ball and freeze it to the king, the king has the next shot and can get out of the situation.

"The wall The 8-ball ... cannot be used in combinations or jumped over" (p.4) - Again, I can see the reason for this, but it does make the rules more complex, so my view is the rules might be better without these restrictions (and you might make jumpshots illegal anyway.
(I do like the line "The 8 is the wall and cannot be jumped over, you fool."!)

" -The Saboteur can also take on the role of the Assassin.
- With the Saboteur, you cannot both sabotage and pocket a ball. You need to call one of them."
Are these rules necessary? (As usual, I'm against unnecessary complexity!)

Where you talk about which ball can pot which, it may be worth stating that a ball can legally hit and move a higher-numbered ball from the opponent's group, if it doesn't pot it.

For the simple game, 4 points feels very low. At most, people can only buy 2 balls.

Another thought that occurred to me: Alternative names for the kingslayer: "Hangman" or "Executioner". (Maybe we discussed these before?) I think both have interesting and slightly sinister connotations that give them added 'personality'. It also makes sense that you'd know who the hangman is, but the assassin would be a secret.

 

[DaWizard]

The rules look great. You've put some work into the design! Thanks thanks

Some comments:

"Legal and illegal ball potting" (p.3) - This section doesn't clarify what happens if you call one ball, but sink multiple balls. Do the uncalled balls come up? Yes, the uncalled, illegally potted, balls are returnedafter, after the shot Or all the pocketed balls? No, because then it's always too risky to call another ball
What if you call multiple balls but only make one? Legally potted ball stays away.

Oh if I press enter the quote splits! Simplest would be: call max 1 ball, like normal. But it would maybe encourage tricky shots. It's great if you manage to make 2 balls in 1 shot. But maybe keep it simple.

"Bring a reservist into play" (p.3) - I think this section should clearly say that the balls are recruited in order from lowest number to highest, unless they were re-ordered. (Alternatively, a simpler option would be to let people recruit any ball.)

Ill further clarify.

"A reservist cannot be placed on the half where the enemy King is located." (p.3) - I don't think I like this rule. I can see the benefit of stopping the recruited ball being placed next to the king for a dead combination/carom, but it makes the rules complex. If the rule was simply you used your original half of the table, the opponent has a tactical reason to keep his king in his half, and you have a tactical opportunity to get the king into your own half. Then if you do recruit a ball and freeze it to the king, the king has the next shot and can get out of the situation.

Needs some testing to see what works. Im not so happy with balls being placed directly next to the King because I fear it will lead to lots of discussion about following shots being a foul or not. (That's a double hit!! - no man it was legal!!)

"The wall The 8-ball ... cannot be used in combinations or jumped over" (p.4) - Again, I can see the reason for this, but it does make the rules more complex, so my view is the rules might be better without these restrictions (and you might make jumpshots illegal anyway.
(I do like the line "The 8 is the wall and cannot be jumped over, you fool."!)

Needs testing as well. Is it fun to be able to hide? Or annoying and limiting?
It's a special ball! It has a couple of rules that come down to "you're safe behind it".
Maybe indeed jumpshots can be illegal alltogether. Jumpshots don't really seem to break (an aspect of) the game, though. So im not sure. Some people don't like them anyway... Next time testing i'll discuss it. My opponent did 1 jumpshot last time! I wasnt too worried about it while playing.

" -The Saboteur can also take on the role of the Assassin.

This is to clarify that you can make the 3 an assassin as well. 2 roles on 1 ball

- With the Saboteur, you cannot both sabotage and pocket a ball. You need to call one of them."
Are these rules necessary? (As usual, I'm against unnecessary complexity!)

I think so because doing both is a bit weird, in a way:" I call your 2 in the corner pocket and I call to sabotage it, in case I miss"

Where you talk about which ball can pot which, it may be worth stating that a ball can legally hit and move a higher-numbered ball from the opponent's group, if it doesn't pot it.

Yes good one. Needs to be state clearly.

For the simple game, 4 points feels very low. At most, people can only buy 2 balls.

Seems like a tight budget, but there are practically only 4 balls to recruit as the King is free. So you can do the 4, 3+1, 2+1 and recorder or 3 and reorder. Reordering barely makes sense though

Another thought that occurred to me: Alternative names for the kingslayer: "Hangman" or "Executioner". (Maybe we discussed these before?) I think both have interesting and slightly sinister connotations that give them added 'personality'. It also makes sense that you'd know who the hangman is, but the assassin would be a secret.

I think executioner sounds cool! And kings used to be executed..

 

[Pin]

Oh if I press enter the quote splits! Simplest would be: call max 1 ball, like normal. But it would maybe encourage tricky shots. It's great if you manage to make 2 balls in 1 shot. But maybe keep it simple.

What if you call 1 ball, but if you make it, any others you pot at the same time (that are lower than your cue ball) also stay down? I know it encourages slop, but I think the game already strongly punishes you for losing control of the 'cue' ball, so I think players would learn to be very selective about when to try for slop. Maybe worth play-testing.

Needs some testing to see what works. Im not so happy with balls being placed directly next to the King because I fear it will lead to lots of discussion about following shots being a foul or not. (That's a double hit!! - no man it was legal!!)

Ah, good point.
I suppose if you were placing a ball that was allowed to kill the king, you perhaps wouldn't freeze it next to the king (you might just give yourself a straight shot instead... or would you? Maybe some people wouldn't!) If the ball being placed was a non-assassin, it would be a middle ball in a combination or something, so the push isn't a problem.

It's a special ball! It has a couple of rules that come down to "you're safe behind it".
Maybe indeed jumpshots can be illegal alltogether. Jumpshots don't really seem to break (an aspect of) the game, though. So im not sure. Some people don't like them anyway... Next time testing i'll discuss it. My opponent did 1 jumpshot last time! I wasnt too worried about it while playing.

I remember we talked about possible rules for not hitting the 8 first and other options. I like the 'special ball' idea, it makes it a more important piece in the game.
In general, because a lot of the game is about hiding the king, I would have expected opportunities to jump whatever he's hiding behind. But you'd have to judge what happens in practice.

" -The Saboteur can also take on the role of the Assassin.

This is to clarify that you can make the 3 an assassin as well. 2 roles on 1 ball

Ah, I think I misread this as 'can't also take on the role'. I agree with letting it do both!

I think so because doing both is a bit weird, in a way:" I call your 2 in the corner pocket and I call to sabotage it, in case I miss"

Good point!
One option could be that you have to achieve everything you call, or neither the pot or sabotage are allowed. So if you call a sabotage and a pot on the same ball, but miss the pot, the sabotage fails too.

 

[DaWizard]

What if you call 1 ball, but if you make it, any others you pot at the same time (that are lower than your cue ball) also stay down? I know it encourages slop, but I think the game already strongly punishes you for losing control of the 'cue' ball, so I think players would learn to be very selective about when to try for slop. Maybe worth play-testing.

Ohh that's interesting. Then even if your balls are low, you can still get a high profile kill - if you play a very good shot. Would you be allowed to pot the King in this way too?
E.g. My 1 pots your 1 and a carom on your King tgat falls too. (everything called of course)

Ah, good point.
I suppose if you were placing a ball that was allowed to kill the king, you perhaps wouldn't freeze it next to the king (you might just give yourself a straight shot instead... or would you? Maybe some people wouldn't!) If the ball being placed was a non-assassin, it would be a middle ball in a combination or something, so the push isn't a problem.

Im going to add a "to test" to the rules and test this in a couple variations:
Recruit, respot and purchase (through fouls) is place the ball:
- anywhere on table
- only on original half
- not on the half where the enemy King is located

The respot category is a bit different though. A respot happens when the opponent illegally pots your ball. I think that should be kind of punished because otherwise people are just going to illegally pot balls they dislike. So I tend to allow illegal potted balls to be placed anywhere on the table. It could still be beneficial to do because you take out the ball for the next turn, as it's placed after the opponent's shot. But it would be more elegant to have the same rule for them all. Keep it simple.

I remember we talked about possible rules for not hitting the 8 first and other options. I like the 'special ball' idea, it makes it a more important piece in the game.
In general, because a lot of the game is about hiding the king, I would have expected opportunities to jump whatever he's hiding behind. But you'd have to judge what happens in practice.

Yeah on the to test list.

Ah, I think I misread this as 'can't also take on the role'. I agree with letting it do both!


Good point!
One option could be that you have to achieve everything you call, or neither the pot or sabotage are allowed. So if you call a sabotage and a pot on the same ball, but miss the pot, the sabotage fails too.

That is logical as well! Also on the 'to test list'.