"Poolology", Maybe the best $10 ever spent!

Bobkitty

I said: "Here kitty, kitty". Got this frown.
Gold Member
Silver Member
The real question is why did you even bring CTE into your OP. If you would have left CTE out we wouldn't have even commented.

PS The answer is that without the mention of CTE the thread dies on the first page,lol.

You need to go back and read the OP, You will find that I never mentioned CTE. You guys really have some big chips on your shoulders about CTE. Even to the point of preceptions of slights. I've only been active on AZB for about 3 months, but I've read that this has been going back and forth for years.
 

lfigueroa

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Why don't you guys roll say 10 balls out on the table and put up a curtain and drain them like the guy you didn't mention does,,,,,,,,,, I bet we'll see how many holes are in fractional aiming.


Because that would not prove anything.

Those are trick shots, shot on his home table, not much different than something like wing shots. Has absolutely nothing to do with pool where you are shooting on different tables, in different rooms, with different equipment, against a real opponent, for tournament money or a bet.

Lou Figueroa
 

BC21

https://www.playpoolbetter.com
Gold Member
Silver Member
Here's an idea: All pot stirrers quit stirring this particular pot, then we'll see if it simmers down to nothing.

The fact is, comparison happens to be the most common form of expressing an opinion. Everybody does it with almost every product or service in the world.

My wife loves Sketchers tennis shoes, but they make my feet hurt, so I wear Dr Martens. If I'm asked about how comfortable my Dr Martens are, I say they are awesome, unlike Sketchers, which make my feet hurt. Other people that happen to be wearing sketchers don't follow me around the mall asking why I said what I said about their favorite shoes. They don't give me a mean look and a defensive tirade about how they wholeheartedly believe their shoes are the best in the world, COMPARED to all other shoes, and I should never mention them in public unless I'm a proud owner of a pair, and if so I should refrain from using any language that could be viewed as negative toward Sketchers.

So why does that happen here in the aiming forum when it comes to CTE? I don't recall seeing Samba or ghostball or Trefx users doing it. They appear to be comfortable, content in their own shoes, while others are content in their own shoes. And that's how it should be. The only time a staunch defense is justified is when factually-incorrect or misinformation us being presented. Someone's experience about difficulties encountered in a certain system, or their opinion about certain aspects of the system being obvious stumbling blocks or mysterious happenings, is not the same as ridiculing or demeaning the system.
 

Bobkitty

I said: "Here kitty, kitty". Got this frown.
Gold Member
Silver Member
No aiming system would sell here unless it involves pivoting. :grin:

Everyone's looking for the magic (including me). I wish I could just pocket the balls like SVB without doing the work he did. Of course, if I had that power, I'd ask for Chet Atkin's guitar talent or Rachmaninoff's piano ability and forget about pool.

"Reality" is when you stop believing in it, it's still there". "Poolology" will still be there. Enough said.
 
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cookie man

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Everyone's looking for the magic (including me). I wish I could just pocket the balls like SVB without doing the work he did. Of course, if I had that power, I'd ask for Chet Atkin's guitar talent or Rachmaninoff's piano ability and forget about pool.

"Reality" is when you stop believing in it, it's still there". "Poolology" will still be there. Enough said.

SVB uses a shaft aiming system
 

Bobkitty

I said: "Here kitty, kitty". Got this frown.
Gold Member
Silver Member
SVB uses a shaft aiming system

Has he explained it publicly? Let's hear how that works! I want to know all of these aiming systems. Maybe one will click for me!:thumbup: All I know to do is set up the shots I have trouble with and practice. There's got to be a better way! I keep wondering if Ben Hogan had been shown "the secret" to golf he wouldn't of had to "dig it out of the dirt" as he explained. He's also the father of the quote; "the more I practice, the better I get".
 
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cookie man

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
There is no pivoting, and he doesn't ask you to come down on a center cue ball aimed at something mysterious like other systems. !

You can deny it all you want but you've posted this same thing in numerous CTE posts of yours. In fact it's one of the things about CTE you can't figure out right? You are much more comfortable aiming CCB at something instead of something " mysterious" as you put it.
I am pretty versed at pivot systems so please tell me which other pivot system do you think you aim CCB at something mysterious. I can't think of one.
 

cookie man

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Has he explained it publicly? Let's hear how that works! I want to know all of these aiming systems. Maybe one will click for me!:thumbup: All I know to do is set up the shots I have trouble with and practice. There's got to be a better way!

He briefly explained it in an interview. I'm not into searching for it but it's out there to be seen
 

JoeyInCali

Maker of Joey Bautista Cues
Silver Member
Has he explained it publicly? Let's hear how that works! I want to know all of these aiming systems. Maybe one will click for me!:thumbup: All I know to do is set up the shots I have trouble with and practice. There's got to be a better way! I keep wondering if Ben Hogan had been shown "the secret" to golf he wouldn't of had to "dig it out of the dirt" as he explained. He's also the father of the quote; "the more I practice, the better I get".

You don't want to hear it . lol
I seriously think he's pulling everyone's leg and they are falling for it .
He aims different point of the side of the shaft/ferrule depending on the shot.
One guy got mad at me when I pointed out that it's in relation to the contact point. He says it has nothing to do with the contact point.
Then SVB tells Jennifer Barreta in a way he looks at the contact point.
He then says different shafts , different aim. :eek::D

He's pulling everyone's leg.
Please. He shoots thousands and thousands of balls. How many angles can there be.
Please.
He shoots with muscle and visual memory.
Line up the suckers .
 

Bobkitty

I said: "Here kitty, kitty". Got this frown.
Gold Member
Silver Member
You can deny it all you want but you've posted this same thing in numerous CTE posts of yours. In fact it's one of the things about CTE you can't figure out right? You are much more comfortable aiming CCB at something instead of something " mysterious" as you put it.
I am pretty versed at pivot systems so please tell me which other pivot system do you think you aim CCB at something mysterious. I can't think of one.

I don't understand any "pivot" system, but I'll admit I'm new to them. To apply English, I come down parallel and now I understand from Stan's DVD that is horrible. I do take lessons from a guy that is curious like I am about all of them, but so far he has put all pivot systems in the waste of time category and wants me to get back to work practicing. Wonder what system, Earl, Albin, Ko Pin, etc. uses. I'll bet their systems comes from "digging it out of the dirt" like Hogan.
 

BC21

https://www.playpoolbetter.com
Gold Member
Silver Member
Has he explained it publicly? Let's hear how that works! I want to know all of these aiming systems. Maybe one will click for me!:thumbup: All I know to do is set up the shots I have trouble with and practice. There's got to be a better way!

That was my exact thought before coming up with the crescent-shaped object ball position values for the table. Now it's just a matter of programming the brain to automatically recognize the fractions, not through trial and error, but through well-defined aim points. Should really speed up the programming process.

Oh....the edge of shaft method has something to do with aligning the shaft edge to the contact point on the OB. I've read about it before, and from what I recall it's not too accurate. On some shots it works, on others it doesn't. If you could visualize the contact point accurately it could probably prove ok. I think contact points are hard to see on cuts thinner than a half ball. The perspective is just off from that angle.
 

Bobkitty

I said: "Here kitty, kitty". Got this frown.
Gold Member
Silver Member
That was my exact thought before coming up with the crescent-shaped object ball position values for the table. Now it's just a matter of programming the brain to automatically recognize the fractions, not through trial and error, but through well-defined aim points. Should really speed up the programming process.

Oh....the edge of shaft method has something to do with aligning the shaft edge to the contact point on the OB. I've read about it before, and from what I recall it's not too accurate. On some shots it works, on others it doesn't. If you could visualize the contact point accurately it could probably prove ok. I think contact points are hard to see on cuts thinner than a half ball. The perspective is just off from that angle.

Yeah, I just found the interview on Youtube and I think that will stay SVB's private aiming system. Once again, he "dug it out of the dirt" a la Hogan. Funny how the greats in all sports, musical instruments, etc. worked their asses off learning their skill. I've never heard about one that went from mediocre to great after learning the secret. Yet, that fact doesn't keep us from searching for it. I know I am. ha I'm glad I have your table solutions in my arsenal though. Comes in darn handy sometimes.
 

Renegade_56

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I don't understand any "pivot" system, but I'll admit I'm new to them. To apply English, I come down parallel and now I understand from Stan's DVD that is horrible. I do take lessons from a guy that is curious like I am about all of them, but so far he has put all pivot systems in the waste of time category and wants me to get back to work practicing. Wonder what system, Earl, Albin, Ko Pin, etc. uses. I'll bet their systems comes from "digging it out of the dirt" like Hogan.

Of course he says that, you pay him for lessons. Curious why you need an aiming system, with a coach an all.
 

Bobkitty

I said: "Here kitty, kitty". Got this frown.
Gold Member
Silver Member
Of course he says that, you pay him for lessons. Curious why you need an aiming system, with a coach an all.

I'm looking to pot every ball I look at. I still miss shots. Why did you look for an aiming system when you found CTE? Why does anyone?
 

AtLarge

AzB Gold Member
Gold Member
Silver Member
... The other thing is that on a tight table it feels like - haven't proven or disproven yet - the difference between 3/8 and 1/3 can jar a ball on long shots. For example if you have a 7/21 ratio and aim at 3/8. So I've started visualizing thirds as well.

You are correct that the difference between a 3/8 overlap and a 1/3 overlap can cause a miss on long shots. A fullness of hit of 3/8 results in a 38.7° cut, whereas a 1/3 hit is 41.8° (both ignoring throw). So the difference is about 3°, which is enough to cause a miss on long shots.

Your post (and others) prompts me to say more about Poolology.

Firstly, I had never before seen the methodology Brian Crisp presents in Poolology for determining the overlaps needed to pocket balls. It is quite clever, and I consider it a significant contribution to the literature. And the text is well written! Kudos to Mr. Crisp.

Poolology's arithmetic will yield overlaps that are "right on" in some cases and "close enough" in many others. But they are largely approximations to the geometrically correct overlaps or cut angles needed for center pocketing, not precise determinations. Because of pocket slop and cut-induced throw, those approximations seem to work well for a large percentage of shots.

That they are approximations is apparent from the fact that the overhang fraction (and its complement, the overlap fraction) is unchanged in Poolology when the cue ball is moved closer or farther from the OB on the line of centers between the two balls. Yet, with the OB fixed in place, the actual cut angle changes (straight-ins excepted) with each movement of the CB on that line of centers -- moving it closer to the OB increases the cut angle and moving it farther away reduces the cut angle.

Mr. Crisp is well aware of this. He has posted advice on AzB and in a YouTube video (but not in his book) to use a thinner aim point than the arithmetic would indicate, possibly along with some outside spin, when the two balls are quite close together. And, fortunately, the true cut angle reduces slowly with increasing separation when the balls are a decent distance apart, and that makes the method useful ("close enough") over a wide range of shots.

Here's an EXAMPLE to illustrate this change in cut angle. sixpack mentioned a shot for which Poolology arithmetic indicates a 1/3 hit, so I'll use one of those shots.

  • • OB -- on the long string (the line that would run the length of the table through the head spot and foot spot) and 3 diamonds off the foot rail.
    • CB -- at various positions on the long string
    • Target -- one of the corner pockets at the foot of the table.
    • 9-foot table.

Poolology's arithmetic says this shot is a 1/3-ball aim regardless of the distance between the balls. One-third is certainly between the quarters aim points, so Mr. Crisp might recommend a 3/8 aim. I don't think his book recommended going to anything finer than eighths. But let's consider both 3/8 and 1/3. As mentioned above, the geometric cut angles with those two hits are 38.7° and 41.8°, respectively. Cut-induced throw will reduce the actual cut angle a bit, and the amount depends upon a number of factors. But let's assume it takes 2° off the cut and that the resulting cut angles we'll end up with are about 37° with the 3/8 hit and 40° with the 1/3 hit.

With a 4½" pocket, and the OB located as specified, we have a margin of error (pocket slop) of about 1½° to each side of center pocket. With the CB on the long string at various distances from the OB, here is the cut angle we actually need to pocket each shot.

• CB ½ diamond away from the OB -- the cut angle needed is about 50° (±1½° with slop). Neither 3/8 nor 1/3 will work; a 1/4 hit (48.6° less an allowance for throw) might even be a bit too thick.

• CB 1 diamond away -- somewhat over 40° ± 1½°. The 3/8 hit (37°) will not work, but the 1/3 (40°) will.

• CB 2 diamonds away -- about 37° ± 1½°. The 3/8 hit works, the 1/3 does not.

• CB 3 diamonds away -- about 36° ± 1½°. The 3/8 hit works, the 1/3 does not.

• CB 4 diamonds away -- a bit over 35° ± 1½°. Neither 3/8 nor 1/3 works.

• CB against the head rail -- a bit under 35° ± 1½°. Neither 3/8 nor 1/3 works.

Now, these numbers just illustrate how this might work; they would change a bit with different amounts of throw. And that could affect whether the 3/8- or 1/3-hit would work, as would a different pocket size. But I think the example shows that "feel" is still important regardless of all the numbers. The cut angle needed for these CB locations changes by about 5½° as the CB moves from 1 diamond away from the OB to almost 5 diamonds away. That 5½° is too much for slop to accommodate using either a 3/8 overlap or a 1/3 overlap. The player's experience is what will allow him to make all those shots consistently rather than just following the numbers perfectly.

A few of my other thoughts on Poolology:

• Mr. Crisp calls the aim points on the quarters the "basic aim points" and those half way between the quarters the "in-between aim points." But 7 cut angles in each direction (plus straight-ins) are not enough for all shots when the OB is far from the pocket. So some tweaking (a little thicker, a little thinner, or maybe some spin) is needed on some shots.

• Even if Poolology's arithmetic produced an absolutely accurate overlap or fractional hit needed to pocket every shot, that still leaves the age-old problem with fractional aiming of applying that fraction accurately, i.e., accurately pointing the stick (finding the shot line) for fractions other than the easily seen 1/2. Mr. Crisp does provide some guidance as to where the center or edge of the tip should be pointed for each of the "eighths" fractions. I believe that the recommendations for 5/8 and 3/8 hits, using the edge of the tip or shaft, are fine for most cue sticks when the OB and CB are fairly close to each other (and appear approximately the same size) but not when they are far apart and the OB appears much smaller in relation to the tip. At long distances between the balls, the 5/8 recommendation will result in an undercut and the 3/8 recommendation will result in an overcut.

• On a YouTube video, for 1/8- and 1/4-ball aims, Mr. Crisp recommends aiming at the edge or center, respectively, of an imaginary piece of chalk butted up to the OB. Several brands of chalk are about 7/8" wide, which is quite close to the actual distance off the edge of the ball for a 1/8 hit (27/32"), so I think that is a good recommendation. But the 1/4-ball aim should be 9/16" off the edge of the OB -- a bit more than the 7/16" to the middle of the chalk.

• I feel the book should have included some of the material Mr. Crisp has presented in videos, particularly the adjustments needed to the arithmetic: (1) when the OB is on or close to the foot or head spot, (2) when the OB is on or close to a rail within about 1½ diamonds of a corner pocket, and (3) when the CB is close to the OB. Perhaps those will be added to a subsequent edition.

• Why does the cover graphic on the book show a half-ball aim resulting in a cut angle of over 40°? :)

Given those few caveats, I again congratulate Mr. Crisp on a terrific contribution to the material on aiming.
 
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Mirza

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Yeah, I just found the interview on Youtube and I think that will stay SVB's private aiming system. Once again, he "dug it out of the dirt" a la Hogan. Funny how the greats in all sports, musical instruments, etc. worked their asses off learning their skill. I've never heard about one that went from mediocre to great after learning the secret. Yet, that fact doesn't keep us from searching for it. I know I am. ha I'm glad I have your table solutions in my arsenal though. Comes in darn handy sometimes.

Here you go: https://vimeo.com/ondemand/svb
 

Renegade_56

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Could not even get started pocketing balls because couldn't see the diamonds. Luckily, curtains are not part of the game. Why are the CTE guys so defensive on a "Poolology" thread? I just stated it's a nifty little mathematical system that is easy to learn and easy to implement. Easily worth $10. I supported Stan and bought the DVDs. Now let's support Brian and buy his work. I don't use "Poolology" all the time, but it sure is a handy arrow to have in the quiver.

I already bought it. It's worth $10.
 
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Renegade_56

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Because that would not prove anything.

Those are trick shots, shot on his home table, not much different than something like wing shots. Has absolutely nothing to do with pool where you are shooting on different tables, in different rooms, with different equipment, against a real opponent, for tournament money or a bet.

Lou Figueroa

nothing tricky about it. I've done it at my home on my table, and it'll work on the tables you play on as well.
 

Renegade_56

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
You are correct that the difference between a 3/8 overlap and a 1/3 overlap can cause a miss on long shots. A fullness of hit of 3/8 results in a 38.7° cut, whereas a 1/3 hit is 41.8° (both ignoring throw). So the difference is about 3°, which is enough to cause a miss on long shots.

Your post (and others) prompts me to say more about Poolology.

Firstly, I had never before seen the methodology Brian Crisp presents in Poolology for determining the overlaps needed to pocket balls. It is quite clever, and I consider it a significant contribution to the literature. And the text is well written! Kudos to Mr. Crisp.

Poolology's arithmetic will yield overlaps that are "right on" in some cases and "close enough" in many others. But they are largely approximations to the geometrically correct overlaps or cut angles needed for center pocketing, not precise determinations. Because of pocket slop and cut-induced throw, those approximations seem to work well for a large percentage of shots.

That they are approximations is apparent from the fact that the overhang fraction (and its complement, the overlap fraction) is unchanged in Poolology when the cue ball is moved closer or farther from the OB on the line of centers between the two balls. Yet, with the OB fixed in place, the actual cut angle changes (straight-ins excepted) with each movement of the CB on that line of centers -- moving it closer to the OB increases the cut angle and moving it farther away reduces the cut angle.

Mr. Crisp is well aware of this. He has posted advice on AzB and in a YouTube video (but not in his book) to use a thinner aim point than the arithmetic would indicate, possibly along with some outside spin, when the two balls are quite close together. And, fortunately, the true cut angle reduces slowly with increasing separation when the balls are a decent distance apart, and that makes the method useful ("close enough") over a wide range of shots.

Here's an EXAMPLE to illustrate this change in cut angle. sixpack mentioned a shot for which Poolology arithmetic indicates a 1/3 hit, so I'll use one of those shots.

  • • OB -- on the long string (the line that would run the length of the table through the head spot and foot spot) and 3 diamonds off the foot rail.
    • CB -- at various positions on the long string
    • Target -- one of the corner pockets at the foot of the table.
    • 9-foot table.

Poolology's arithmetic says this shot is a 1/3-ball aim regardless of the distance between the balls. One-third is certainly between the quarters aim points, so Mr. Crisp might recommend a 3/8 aim. I don't think his book recommended going to anything finer than eighths. But let's consider both 3/8 and 1/3. As mentioned above, the geometric cut angles with those two hits are 38.7° and 41.8°, respectively. Cut-induced throw will reduce the actual cut angle a bit, and the amount depends upon a number of factors. But let's assume it takes 2° off the cut and that the resulting cut angles we'll end up with are about 37° with the 3/8 hit and 40° with the 1/3 hit.

With a 4½" pocket, and the OB located as specified, we have a margin of error (pocket slop) of about 1½° to each side of center pocket. With the CB on the long string at various distances from the OB, here is the cut angle we actually need to pocket each shot.

• CB ½ diamond away from the OB -- the cut angle needed is about 50° (±1½° with slop). Neither 3/8 nor 1/3 will work; a 1/4 hit (48.6° less an allowance for throw) might even be a bit too thick.

• CB 1 diamond away -- somewhat over 40° ± 1½°. The 3/8 hit (37°) will not work, but the 1/3 (40°) will.

• CB 2 diamonds away -- about 37° ± 1½°. The 3/8 hit works, the 1/3 does not.

• CB 3 diamonds away -- about 36° ± 1½°. The 3/8 hit works, the 1/3 does not.

• CB 4 diamonds away -- a bit over 35° ± 1½°. Neither 3/8 nor 1/3 works.

• CB against the head rail -- a bit under 35° ± 1½°. Neither 3/8 nor 1/3 works.

Now, these numbers just illustrate how this might work; they would change a bit with different amounts of throw. And that could affect whether the 3/8- or 1/3-hit would work, as would a different pocket size. But I think the example shows that "feel" is still important regardless of all the numbers. The cut angle needed for these CB locations changes by about 5½° as the CB moves from 1 diamond away from the OB to almost 5 diamonds away. That 5½° is too much for slop to accommodate using either a 3/8 overlap or a 1/3 overlap. The player's experience is what will allow him to make all those shots consistently rather than just following the numbers perfectly.

A few of my other thoughts on Poolology:

• Mr. Crisp calls the aim points on the quarters the "basic aim points" and those half way between the quarters the "in-between aim points." But 7 cut angles in each direction (plus straight-ins) are not enough for all shots when the OB is far from the pocket. So some tweaking (a little thicker, a little thinner, or maybe some spin) is needed on some shots.

• Even if Poolology's arithmetic produced an absolutely accurate overlap or fractional hit needed to pocket every shot, that still leaves the age-old problem with fractional aiming of applying that fraction accurately, i.e., accurately pointing the stick (finding the shot line) for fractions other than the easily seen 1/2. Mr. Crisp does provide some guidance as to where the center or edge of the tip should be pointed for each of the "eighths" fractions. I believe that the recommendations for 5/8 and 3/8 hits, using the edge of the tip or shaft, are fine for most cue sticks when the OB and CB are fairly close to each other (and appear approximately the same size) but not when they are far apart and the OB appears much smaller in relation to the tip. At long distances between the balls, the 5/8 recommendation will result in an undercut and the 3/8 recommendation will result in an overcut.

• On a YouTube video, for 1/8- and 1/4-ball aims, Mr. Crisp recommends aiming at the edge or center, respectively, of an imaginary piece of chalk butted up to the OB. Several brands of chalk are about 7/8" wide, which is quite close to the actual distance off the edge of the ball for a 1/8 hit (27/32"), so I think that is a good recommendation. But the 1/4-ball aim should be 9/16" off the edge of the OB -- a bit more than the 7/16" to the middle of the chalk.

• I feel the book should have included some of the material Mr. Crisp has presented in videos, particularly the adjustments needed to the arithmetic: (1) when the OB is on or close to the foot or head spot, (2) when the OB is on or close to a rail within about 1½ diamonds of a corner pocket, and (3) when the CB is close to the OB. Perhaps those will be added to a subsequent edition.

• Why does the cover graphic on the book show a half-ball aim resulting in a cut angle of over 40°? :)

Given those few caveats, I again congratulate Mr. Crisp on a terrific contribution to the material on aiming.

Very well done. This is pretty much my assessment as well. It's useful and easy, and close enough on alot of shots.
 
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