Private pool club - how many members for a 6 table club?

NYC

Member
A halogen light bulb remains constant in the light it produces, with no variations of it's spectrum. The halogen bulb doesn't have Earth's atmospheric affect that produces the Red colors people see in the sky, mostly at night as the Sun gets closer to the horizon.

There is a aiming system that is based on the lights shining on the balls. The light fixture has to be centered directly over the table with a good source of lighting such as a halogen bulb used in the fixture. You want the balls clean and polished so you can get the light centered in the smallest spot possible on the balls. Ron Vitello, from NYC has published a book that that is over a 100 pages, that explains how to use the light shining on the object ball as a aiming reference. It works very well for some people and not so well for others. For myself, I only look at the light shining on the object ball and never on the cue ball.

You can find 12 volt PAR 36 bulbs, that are 4 1/2" wide and less then 3" thick in most applications. Landscape flood lights should work great. With the bulbs mounted very high into the light fixture, there shouldn't be any blinding light to effect people around the table, with proper shading installed around the small halogen bulbs.

https://www.google.com/search?client=firefox-b-1-e&q=+40W+par+36+flood+landscape+bulb

 
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snookered_again

Well-known member
interesting info thanks !

one thing is if you are creating a light fixture it wont have UL approval but maybe if you use those lower voltage bulbs than the wiring is somewhat protected as then the transformer may be an isolation transformer.

mine had a copper wire to connect within the box it hangs from. I had no box and wanted to hang it without one and to an extension cord. I wired it with a 3 wire plug just so it's bonded somewhat properly.

when wiring in lights like that I like to put a round box with two 110V outlets, that way if I ever want to work on it I can simply unplug it, rather than the "normal" way of hanging it from the box and making the ground connection inside the box.

I use a round box typical of a light fixture so if the light is ever changed to a "normal setup" no extensive house wiring is needed. if you used 6 volts I guess the wiring isn't so critical but you'd need to decide where the power supply will live and where its fed from.

you can ask a "real" electrician for help on code and things , but you may find that things like how well run the wires are and the use of grommets might be less critical with 6V, maybe the frame of the light still needs a ground, I'm not sure how the code works on that.

as an example your laptop might not be grounded, the power transformer provides DC and you can only draw so many amps through the transformer. "isolated" means there is no connection between the primary winding and secondary winding of the transformer so the output potential that could cause a shock is limited by the design of the transformer.

to make DC you need to rectify the power after it is transformed, of course you will just use an off the shelf transformer you just probably need to check that it's able to put out the right voltage and high enough amps. some modern transformers work a bit different using electronics.

In my living room it never had lights in the ceiling and I didn't wish to add them when I rewired my own house under permit, (its 100 years old, so it was all knob and tube, now updated)

so when I decided to install a pool table light the easiest was to just feed it from a cord hung on cup hooks basically. not perfect maybe,, but it's ok, at least it is grounded. since the light is designed to make a ground connection in the electrical pot and I didn't have one, I rewired the fixture to be grounded by way of a 3 prong cord. this way if it does short, it will blow it's fuse instead of becoming electrified.

Its not uncommon for people to go and create their own artistic lamps, I think if you sell them you might want proper UL approval. I don't think it hard to do it safely, Perfectly well and safe and "approved" are different things. to a business that may be important, you can probably buy it all as a package or kit.

careful if you are working in any commercial space, what they will do is use a higher voltage like 247V or is it 347 ? higher anyway..

it can catch people who think they know what they are doing and have experience with house wiring completely off guard.

you can find higher voltages like about 700 V in those commercial spaces, above the false ceiling, if you break two neutral wires and measure between.

Just be careful about that if you ever do find yourself trying to do wiring in a commercial space.
It's done that way so they can use thinner wire up in the ceiling above a false ceiling basically.

codes vary by area but I once found out by replacing a ballast in a fluorescent in a commercial space which blew straight away. I figured it was 110. failed to verify with a meter. It was not! So careful of that one. it only cost a ballast, but a lesson learned there..

I am not an electrician so if you have any questions you should consuult one.
 
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NYC

Member
to make DC you need to rectify the power after it is transformed, of course you will just use an off the shelf transformer you just probably need to check that it's able to put out the right voltage and high enough amps. some modern transformers work a bit different using electronics.

so when I decided to install a pool table light the easiest was to just feed it from a cord hung on cup hooks basically. not perfect maybe,, but it's ok, at least it is grounded. since the light is designed to make a ground connection in the electrical pot and I didn't have one, I rewired the fixture to be grounded by way of a 3 prong cord. this way if it does short, it will blow it's fuse instead of becoming electrified.

The most important thing is that you have lighting on your table. I wouldn't worry about feeding your lighting system via the cord method and as you point out the system is now grounded. Excellent tips on electrical safety.

The big box home improvement stores in the colonies here offer up 12 Volt step down transformers from 120 or 240V electrical sources. Some of these step down transformers come with a 120V cord attached, so all a person does is plug the transformer into a wall outlet. Since it is a 12V lighting system, #16 wire to run the 12 volts to each light fixture, as the bulbs don't draw much amperage. It is easy to convert most existing light fixtures now over tables over to 12 volt Halogen bulb systems.
 

NYC

Member
If Halogen lighting was used for lighting over billiard tables, there would be no need for made for TV broadcast billiard ball sets. The viewer at home watching the video broadcast, would be able to see the classic colors of the billiard balls without any problems on their screen.
 

snookered_again

Well-known member
fairly long post so for those who don't like reading long posts please just skip on by..

Im not sure about weather LED or Halide or halogen is better for photography, I did notice a huge difference when I swapped the Florescent in my shop to LED.
Photos came out dramatically better. I'd just say that is a preference , the user can pick what he wants. It may change the atmosphere and some players may prefer one type.

if you already have fluorescent fixtures, you can simply pop in LED tubes that are designed for the ballast to be there.

for a while Home Depo sold ones a bit different, I bought a case of them and with that type you can eliminate the ballast and just hook 110 between the two porcelain connectors. ( tombstones) I used up the case and threw out all my ballasts, no longer necessary..

I went back and they told me that now all they carry is the replacement LED tubes that use the electronic ballast. I replaced a few of the remaining ones that way. all you need to do then is swap the bulbs out. ( consumer friendly)

I think the 110 V ones may have caused some customers that didn't have much experience to get into working on the wiring of the fixtures and maybe some encountered the higher voltages present in commercial buildings.. that may have been why HD stopped carrying that type that eliminates the ballast. electrical suppliers that supply to commercial electricians still sell them.

some may vary by area as well of course and Europe is different. 50 Hz and 220 more common. the frequency may not matter to the bulbs. It matters to synchronous motors ( like found in old clocks) and some other things.

older style transformers with just an iron core and primary and secondary windings can be either autotransformers ( sharing the windings) or isolation transformers. Its easy to tell them apart as there is no electrical connection between primary and secondary with an isolated transformer.

the transformers contain a certain amount of metal, soft iron with good magnetic properties. now with technology we also have electronic transformers. , less iron is needed to make them.
an example of each.


here's a bunch of others

I have on my electronics bench, a 1:1 isolation transformer, this is for my protection. I sometimes work on old radios and some from about the 50's were hot chassis, the only isolation was the knobs!, so they are a bit dangerous. the isolation transformer limits the potential current available , thats for my own safety. mine is 3 amps. most of those old radios also had both spades of the plug the same size, newer stuff will have a polarized cord. one prong is larger. Its common practice when rebuilding old radios to update to a polarized 2 wire cord, for safety. the hot wire is then switched and it can't be plugged in the other way around.

most of the older ones like from the 30's use great big heavy transformers, they are usually isolated. the output can be around 300 V or so. the hot chassis radios were also usually a series filament, each tube's filament is connected in series totalling 110 Volts. It reduced parts and then no transformer was needed. Less metal used. often the risk with those is that any rubber wire has degraded and the insulation falls off . some radios had what they call "curtain burner cords" or " resistance line cords" they used the cord as a resistor so the cord itself was a resistor which dropped the voltage.

some of the really old ones have a thing that looks like a heater element that plugs in. the old electrical supplies had a lot of spikes and I guess it helped eliminate the voltage spikes. They had some weird ideas back in the 30's but the math and the complexity sure does show that they knew a lot about electricity. I like looking into them and seeing how the technology advanced over time.

The more modern power supplies probably also have isolation, one can check the specs. of course you'd need high enough amperage to run what you plan to.

I think if you were setting up a pool hall you could have an electricain install the pots above the pool tables and then when you set the table up maybe you can position each table so it can hang the light directly above , of course the electrician may want to attach the pot to a joist so giving him an exact location could be inconvenient for him.

If the tables are there first or you are working with existing then you may need to suspend them from eye bolts or hooks or similar. the actual wire might be connected into a nearby pot, but if the light is to hang from the pot itself, it's stuff to plan ahead with that in mind.

you might want the table directly under a joist so your eye bolts can hit the joist without need to shift or move the table.

If pot is attached to the joist it may attached on one side or the other of it. otherwise you may need to fool around with blocking etc. of course not all buildings have wood joist either.

as a kid I once realized a light was not making contact with the pip on a bottom of a bulb, so I went and stood on a chair took a kitchen knife and tried prying the little prong in the bottom of a socket,. With inexperience at the time, I checked that the light was off.. WELL ... The neutral was switched and not the hot, I had a little surprise learning experience , YES the contact was hot. that memory was instantly instilled ;-) thats why you should shut the breaker off !

It's common to use the pot as a distribution point, a junction box basically.

then if you run to a switch and back you may use romex cable. now you have a hot wire feeding the switch and a return line. Its also hot. romex of course has only the white and black , plus bonding wire. ( ground)
I believe it is comon practice to the wrap that white wire with colored tape, this signifies it is not a neutral wire, even though it is a white wire.

stuff like this mixes people up and you can end up with the situation I had, the electrician had switched the neutral wire. easy mistake to make. probably a previous homeowner.. a real electrician would probably know better.

3 way switching like you commonly have on a stairway with two switches are different again. Then you need three way switches.

Im not suggesting you do your own wiring if not qualified but one think I'd consider when positioning the tables and calculating the layout is that you coud think about where the pots will be to power the lights. it could mean some slight changes in layout? it might look cleaner and more tidy if the pot is in the right position exactly, and then you can hang from the pot itself. Since its a pool table light I'd make extra sure that electrical pot is well secured,

in most AC wiring all conections need to be made within pots or elecrical boxes. if you are running around a shop with low voltage that is protected by isolation, this may not be the case. one might find a cost savings by not needing to meet the same codes but I'd check with an electrician before you do all that. I am not an electrician by trade.
 
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Cyclone

New member
Back to topic at hand. Lighting is not a significant concern. Rent, security, and availability of at least a beer/wine or BYO are far more important.

If it is a membership, and nobody under 21 is allowed in, that must simplify things. IMHO There must be a managerial presence there at any time the club is open.
 

snookered_again

Well-known member
6 tables means a significant number of people.. doing a cost analysis is complex, much like the analysis one may do in rationalizing a profitable business venture.

if you have a bunch of older experienced adults that are very unlikely to steal or do bad things and who would self monitor others and have a respect for the environment. That's one situation..

Totally different situation if you have a bunch that are younger tend to be selfish or immature, may get drunk and obnoxious and really don't care so much about the owner the other members and need to be monitored.

If you have a strong core group who is deeply respectful they will help with any necessary internal policing, and they will defend the fort because it becomes important to them personally.

If you don't have that then I believe it can easily get out of hand to the point its just not worth it.

Ive worked in places that have had a heavy top down management and ones where the employees themselves would self monitor, be given a great deal of trust, and be involved in solutions when problems occurred, thus ejecting the troublemakers.. I think the latter is what works best in this situation.
 

Cyclone

New member
A couple of things I learned doing some research for my area (north Ga)

A private club must operate as a non-profit.

A private club must have at least 75 dues paying members and must be in operation for 2 yrs before applying for a beverage license

Commercial real estate costs around 21$/sq ft per year to lease.
 

Cyclone

New member
So, minimum size for 6x9’ tables with room for chairs, a small bar and an office area is probably 2500/sq ft. 4350$/ mo. Would require 88 members @ 50$/mo just to cover the rent. Electricity for AC would be at least 500$ mo probably more.

If you owned the building, different story but other headaches.

Starting a racing team might be cheaper lol.
 

vincett

Member
if you tally up all other cleaning services, fixtures repairs and regular maintenances, it would add up very quickly. In order to maintain good tables, you would also need a good mechanic team to come out regularly as well
 

maha

from way back when
Silver Member
simple look at what pool rooms charge and even that isnt enough for most to stay in business.
 

maha

from way back when
Silver Member
if i joined a club i would be incensed if the tables were taken up for lessons or such for non members.
still its going to cost 100,000 plus to get started and rent, and insurance costs along with other costs monthly will be and grow monumental.
and someone has to be around and will not work for free long, after he finds out the hours needed.

its hard to be a pool room without all the extra money a pool room brings in from the public. which still doesnt make sense to run.
 

vincett

Member
if i joined a club i would be incensed if the tables were taken up for lessons or such for non members.
still its going to cost 100,000 plus to get started and rent, and insurance costs along with other costs monthly will be and grow monumental.
and someone has to be around and will not work for free long, after he finds out the hours needed.

its hard to be a pool room without all the extra money a pool room brings in from the public. which still doesnt make sense to run.
Most of the pool hall that I knew 20 years back are out of business. The only one left is a friend of mine as he is very enthusiastic, hosting leagues and competitions almost every other day. He has his clothes changes on the 13 tables he has about once every other month. But most of his income comes from selling beverage as it is the largest bar/pool game in the city where I am. I know at once time he almost sold the Bar, but he didn’t entertain the idea of the new owners taking out the pool tables and convert it into a club. Still, he most often mentioned that the business only has it as his hobby and it is not considered a source of income
 
Non-profit is a tax status, not a management style or business model. That said, whether you are a for-profit or non-profit, you still have to pay the bills. You want to lose money, so be it. But if you don't, your business model, the economics, have to feasible. If they aren't, you lose money. Plain and simple. Look at the economics and financials. If you do, you'll learn the most important thing in business, and that is -- one, they don't lie. Two, the people who do them make mistakes, do them incorrectly, etc.
 

vincett

Member
I know for a fact that if I could have access to a hall 24/7, I wouldn’t want to pay more than $50 a month. Anymore than that, I would rather have my own table
 

maha

from way back when
Silver Member
so if you just bought a used table for 5000 bucks in your basement and financed it for ten years your payment would be about 60 a month.

no way can anyplace with expenses survive on renting tables for that kind of money unless they have almost round the clock playing from multiple members. and other income.
 

vincett

Member
so if you just bought a used table for 5000 bucks in your basement and financed it for ten years your payment would be about 60 a month.

no way can anyplace with expenses survive on renting tables for that kind of money unless they have almost round the clock playing from multiple members. and other income.
Can’t beat having it in your home. Beside that, there are so many options to go with $5k is a huge budget. I bought mine already, and so other friends of mine. I can say for sure that we are all very happy with it. We take turn and rotate game nights among ourself.

I do agree with you about the incomes and the business model as mentioned here from the op, and it sustainability. A friend of mine as posted above, the bar owner, rent out tables for only $3-4 an hour. His source of incomes come from selling beverages

Even at $3-4 an hour, my closer friends and myself prefer owning our own table where we can practice on, with our own comfy zones
 

maha

from way back when
Silver Member
even 5000 may be hard to do with a nice table, cues, racks, new quality balls, carpet possibly, moving and setup with top cloth and lighting..

anyone who opens a pool room is a pool nut and doesnt plan on making enough money , as few ever do. but some make a living wage.
in this day and age. in the past with cheap rents you could run one as a business that works.
as jay can attest to. and he should be asked if going that route if smart.
 
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