Pro One vs TOI

[Dan White]

Thanks for the various replies to my post, CJ especially. After giving it a little more thought, I can see there may be benefit to the 3 part pocket system. CJ mentioned that he likes to aim at a point he can see - the pocket facing, rather than the center of the pocket. (Mike Sigel mentioned that one time. He said he aimed at the pocket facing he could see on a standard side of the rack break shot into the corner pocket in straight pool. However, he liked to have a touch of outside on the cue ball so that you could see the cue ball spinning just a little bit after it hit the pack.) I can see also that if you are aiming a little inside you are going to hit either center ball, or more inside than you intended. Either way the ball should go in, so I think it's worth playing around with which I intend to do.

I am still confused on my original point, though. Let me restate it to try and be more clear: There seem to be two different systems being mentioned at the same time. One is where you line up CTC and then use inside english to make the object ball go in the pocket. The other is to aim at the near part of the pocket which requires you to aim however you normally would aim at the object ball. You are no longer lining up CTC when you do this. I think someone mentioned this point earlier and CJ said something about moving your eyes behind the cue when you pivot/move your cue over to the inside.

It seems to me that many people think that you are supposed to aim at the CTC or CTE only and use inside to "create the angle" with cue ball squirt.

 

[ENGLISH!]

Thanks for the various replies to my post, CJ especially. After giving it a little more thought, I can see there may be benefit to the 3 part pocket system. CJ mentioned that he likes to aim at a point he can see - the pocket facing, rather than the center of the pocket. (Mike Sigel mentioned that one time. He said he aimed at the pocket facing he could see on a standard side of the rack break shot into the corner pocket in straight pool. However, he liked to have a touch of outside on the cue ball so that you could see the cue ball spinning just a little bit after it hit the pack.) I can see also that if you are aiming a little inside you are going to hit either center ball, or more inside than you intended. Either way the ball should go in, so I think it's worth playing around with which I intend to do.

I am still confused on my original point, though. Let me restate it to try and be more clear: There seem to be two different systems being mentioned at the same time. One is where you line up CTC and then use inside english to make the object ball go in the pocket. The other is to aim at the near part of the pocket which requires you to aim however you normally would aim at the object ball. You are no longer lining up CTC when you do this. I think someone mentioned this point earlier and CJ said something about moving your eyes behind the cue when you pivot/move your cue over to the inside.

It seems to me that many people think that you are supposed to aim at the CTC or CTE only and use inside to "create the angle" with cue ball squirt.

Dan,

If you use your normal aiming method to the full hit side of the pocket (I don't like saying near side as that is a bit vague to me) then all that you need is just a bit, touch, hair of squirt to get a bit, touch, or hair more cut added to the shot to pocket the ball in the center. This was the first 'chapter' of CJ's introduction. Someone called it TOI-1.

As CJ elaborated as to how HE actually does it, is when the CTC & CTE alignments came into play, so to speak. CJ only aligns to those two points on the OB & creates the angles from there with the TIP of his stick.

I hope this helps. Sometimes we have to let go of something to make room for something new. I'm sure you've heard someone say, forget that & just do this.

I hope this helps & I hope that I am not contributing to any confusion. If so, just say so & I'll stop with my input.

Regards & Best Wishes,
Rick

 

[Dan White]

If you use your normal aiming method to the full hit side of the pocket (I don't like saying near side as that is a bit vague to me) then all that you need is just a bit, touch, hair of squirt to get a bit, touch, or hair more cut added to the shot to pocket the ball in the center. This was the first 'chapter' of CJ's introduction. Someone called it TOI-1.

Thanks Rick. Your comments are very helpful. Can I assume that you are doing the above? I know you had some trouble finding the right way to adjust to inside english and CJ was able to help you fix that.

I think it is possible that CJ is not exactly sure what he is doing, but the result is that he sets up or "aims" only at CTC and CTE and then does whatever with inside english to end up pointing the cue at the near or full side of the pocket.

 

[Dan White]

No matter what aiming method you use, you should always aim left cuts at the right side of the pocket and for right cuts always aim at the left side of the pocket.

I'm sure this must have been asked before, but what if I need outside english for position?

 

[ENGLISH!]

Thanks Rick. Your comments are very helpful. Can I assume that you are doing the above? I know you had some trouble finding the right way to adjust to inside english and CJ was able to help you fix that.

I think it is possible that CJ is not exactly sure what he is doing, but the result is that he sets up or "aims" only at CTC and CTE and then does whatever with inside english to end up pointing the cue at the near or full side of the pocket.

Hi Dan,

I started out using my 'aiming' method (which is all subconscious since way back in my 47 yrs. of playing) to the full hit side of the pocket & then just moved parallel the touch to the inside. It worked very well with the exception of some longer shots where I was allowing some swerve to come into play & under cutting some but not all of those shots.

I did not have a problem adjusting to inside 'english'. I have been playing with inside english since I was 13 or 14 years old. The problem came up when I moved on to the CTC & CTE method of TOI. There were some shots that I was not getting the CB to move with enough squirt & would under cut some balls. Then on some I was getting too much & over cutting some shot. It was working very well but with a bit of inconsistency. I contributed it to allowing some swerve into the shot at times. CJ thought that I might not be moving to the inside consistently parallel. Since I have been playing with parallel english for so long, I was fairly sure that I was parallel. Anyway CJ suggested that I move the butt end of the cue 1st. & then let the tip follow to the touch of inside. I started doing just that & things became more consistent. I have been aligning to just CTC & CTE for several months now.

Your mention of me having a problem adjusting to inside 'english' suggests to me that you are perhaps still misunderstanding a basic principle of TOI. I just posted a post explaining the differences between the same inside tip location for the intended purpose of english spin vs. the intended purpose of squirt 'TOI'. It is in His Boy Elroy's thread on the main forum. You might want to read it. It might help.

As for me, I am selecting whether to use a CTC or CTE alignment while standing tall & I align myself to that line. Then I go down on that line with the cue stick aligned CTC or CTE. From there, I roll the butt end of the cue a bit to the inside & then let the tip follow just the touch to the inside. I shoot from there with no practice stroke while making sure to accelerate. The amountof the inside for the tip is minimal for most shots. It truely is a 'touch' of inside & not the many multiple tips inside that one might think.

That being the case when one has to make an adjust from what might be the 'normal' TOI it is only very minute increases or an even more minute deduction.

Again, I hope that some of this helps.

Regards & Best Wishes,
Rick

 

[Dan White]

Your mention of me having a problem adjusting to inside 'english' suggests to me that you are perhaps still misunderstanding a basic principle of TOI. I just posted a post explaining the differences between the same inside tip location for the intended purpose of english spin vs. the intended purpose of squirt 'TOI'. It is in His Boy Elroy's thread on the main forum. You might want to read it. It might help.

I'll take a look at that.

As for me, I am selecting whether to use a CTC or CTE alignment while standing tall & I align myself to that line. Then I go down on that line with the cue stick aligned CTC or CTE. From there, I roll the butt end of the cue a bit to the inside & then let the tip follow just the touch to the inside. I shoot from there with no practice stroke while making sure to accelerate. The amountof the inside for the tip is minimal for most shots. It truely is a 'touch' of inside & not the many multiple tips inside that one might think.

You know, though, that if you move the butt of the cue to the inside MORE than you do the tip, you are not really changing the angle by squirting the cue ball. You are really just changing the aim of the cue. If you have just a hair of inside then you're getting a hair of squirt, and the rest of the angle is created by just aiming the cue in that direction. Additionally, if you move your eyes with the cue as CJ recommends, you're really just readjusting your aim to make the cut shot. Hope that makes sense. That's what I'm getting from your description at least.

It doesn't really matter why it works if it works, but I always try to understand so that if I'm having problems I can figure out what I might be doing wrong.

 

[CJ Wiley]

Pool is an "art form," and a way to express yourself, experimentation is essential.

Thanks for the various replies to my post, CJ especially. After giving it a little more thought, I can see there may be benefit to the 3 part pocket system. CJ mentioned that he likes to aim at a point he can see - the pocket facing, rather than the center of the pocket. (Mike Sigel mentioned that one time. He said he aimed at the pocket facing he could see on a standard side of the rack break shot into the corner pocket in straight pool. However, he liked to have a touch of outside on the cue ball so that you could see the cue ball spinning just a little bit after it hit the pack.) I can see also that if you are aiming a little inside you are going to hit either center ball, or more inside than you intended. Either way the ball should go in, so I think it's worth playing around with which I intend to do.

I am still confused on my original point, though. Let me restate it to try and be more clear: There seem to be two different systems being mentioned at the same time. One is where you line up CTC and then use inside english to make the object ball go in the pocket. The other is to aim at the near part of the pocket which requires you to aim however you normally would aim at the object ball. You are no longer lining up CTC when you do this. I think someone mentioned this point earlier and CJ said something about moving your eyes behind the cue when you pivot/move your cue over to the inside.

It seems to me that many people think that you are supposed to aim at the CTC or CTE only and use inside to "create the angle" with cue ball squirt.

Inside english is not something I like to use any more than necessary. When you cue the ball to the inside, and follow it with your eyes it creates an angle between the two balls. This is where you can tell if someone is experiencing TOI or just trying to understand it. Someone can understand how to play and still not be able to perform, this is true in many aspects of life. "No one's every missed a ball from their chair".

The 'Touch of Inside' combined with the 'TIPS Banking Secrets' shows almost three hour of demonstrations and explanations on this subject. At the end of the day WE will still have to develop our own style. Like a musician, you can show them how to play, but it's their own personal style and technique that makes their music unique.

Pool is an "art form," and a way to express yourself, experimentation is essential.

'The Game is our Teacher'

 

[CJ Wiley]

Playing pool at a super high level requires an extraordinary FEEL

You know, though, that if you move the butt of the cue to the inside MORE than you do the tip, you are not really changing the angle by squirting the cue ball. You are really just changing the aim of the cue. If you have just a hair of inside then you're getting a hair of squirt, and the rest of the angle is created by just aiming the cue in that direction. Additionally, if you move your eyes with the cue as CJ recommends, you're really just readjusting your aim to make the cut shot. Hope that makes sense. That's what I'm getting from your description at least.

It doesn't really matter why it works if it works, but I always try to understand so that if I'm having problems I can figure out what I might be doing wrong.

You're on the right track now. Just remember, you can't be in the "figuring out mode" and the correct playing mode at the same time. I'll tell you from experience this is what I like to call "Pool Purgatory"......and it's not a good place to stay for long.

Playing pool at a super high level requires an extraordinary FEEL, and this is a subconscious zone of "thoughtless thought," and "effortless effort". Rarely do we even have a moment of "figuring this out," and I've come to real eyes it's not necessary,

When we cue the ball with the TOI it opens up something in our subconscious that encourages an angle between the cue ball and the object ball. Cueing it to the center encourages no angle to be created, so it must be forced in other ways like "ghost ball" and imaginary contact points.

The Touch of Inside is something very enlightening to experiment with, and conceptualizing it with your conscious mind will be confusing.....using TOI for 3 straight hours seems to be the "magic bullet" for many players. Even if you choose not to use the complete TOI System you will still learn valuable lessons about the cue ball/object ball relationship and reactions. 'The Game is our Teacher'

 

[AtLarge]

... I am still confused on my original point, though. Let me restate it to try and be more clear: There seem to be two different systems being mentioned at the same time. One is where you line up CTC and then use inside english to make the object ball go in the pocket. The other is to aim at the near part of the pocket which requires you to aim however you normally would aim at the object ball. You are no longer lining up CTC when you do this. I think someone mentioned this point earlier and CJ said something about moving your eyes behind the cue when you pivot/move your cue over to the inside.

It seems to me that many people think that you are supposed to aim at the CTC or CTE only and use inside to "create the angle" with cue ball squirt.

Dan -- ENGLISH! gave a good summary of "the two different systems being mentioned at the same time." Here is my post from a few months ago that spelled out how CJ had been talking about two related, but a bit different, ways of employing a TOI. That post is where the TOI1 (TOI-1) and TOI2 (TOI-2) names came from: http://forums.azbilliards.com/showthread.php?p=4128722#post4128722

 

[Dan White]

Dan -- ENGLISH! gave a good summary of "the two different systems being mentioned at the same time." Here is my post from a few months ago that spelled out how CJ had been talking about two related, but a bit different, ways of employing a TOI. That post is where the TOI1 (TOI-1) and TOI2 (TOI-2) names came from: http://forums.azbilliards.com/showthread.php?p=4128722#post4128722

Yes, your post is where I learned of TOI-1 and TOI-2. Here's what I've gleaned on this system from this board so far (I have tried it out some just to see what happens - but not 3 hours worth like CJ recommends):

1. Line the shot up CTC (mostly),
2. Rotate the butt of the cue and your eyes (and therefore maybe even your feet?) to the angle necessary to pocket the ball. Use your normal method of aiming to do this, but aim to hit the pocket fat ("inside" part of pocket or facing),
3. Finally, make sure you are using a little inside english IN ADDITION TO the butt adjustment you already made. This english will cause a little squirt and put the object ball down the center of the pocket instead of fat.

If this is correct, then in item 2 aren't you still really pointing the cue (aiming) off into space? I thought the benefit of this system/technique was that you could aim at the center or edge of a ball only.

I'm not trying to knock the system. I'm open to new things and I definitely want to give it some time to try just to see what happens. On the other hand, I have to understand what I'm supposed to be trying in the first place.

Thanks!

 

[CJ Wiley]

The greatest advantages {of the TOI calibration} is in learning to.......

Yes, your post is where I learned of TOI-1 and TOI-2. Here's what I've gleaned on this system from this board so far (I have tried it out some just to see what happens - but not 3 hours worth like CJ recommends):

1. Line the shot up CTC (mostly),
2. Rotate the butt of the cue and your eyes (and therefore maybe even your feet?) to the angle necessary to pocket the ball. Use your normal method of aiming to do this, but aim to hit the pocket fat ("inside" part of pocket or facing),
3. Finally, make sure you are using a little inside english IN ADDITION TO the butt adjustment you already made. This english will cause a little squirt and put the object ball down the center of the pocket instead of fat.

If this is correct, then in item 2 aren't you still really pointing the cue (aiming) off into space? I thought the benefit of this system/technique was that you could aim at the center or edge of a ball only.

I'm not trying to knock the system. I'm open to new things and I definitely want to give it some time to try just to see what happens. On the other hand, I have to understand what I'm supposed to be trying in the first place.

Thanks!

I've never heard it explained quite like this before - sounds kinda complicated. The 'Touch of Inside' is challenging to conceptualize - much easier to experience. Like walking, riding a bike, balancing a ball on your finger, and, of course, playing pool.

There are two alignments when you're standing up, above the ball and this is Center/Center and Center/Edge. This is to give your mind two specific reference points to use as a foundation to create the angles needed.

Cuing the ball TOI will encourage the object ball to over-cut slightly, so you need to feel like you're going to hit the "short side" of the pocket (left cutting right, and right cutting left). When you hit the center of the pocket with TOI you have calibrated your stoke and the TOI correctly.

This amount of "TOI" varies depending on the accuracy and precision of the players stroke. The better you get the less TOI you will need as a general rule.

Rarely will anyone be able to "figure TOI out" without experimenting for 3 hours using ONLY TOI because it taps into the subconscious (where high level ball pocketing is processed) and requires you to develop a "feel for the pocket".

The greatest advantages {of the TOI calibration} is in learning to "cheat the pocket" with accuracy, rather than spin. This brings to a player a whole new dimension in possibilities and new abilities. 'The Game will be their Teacher'

 

[Dan White]

The greatest advantages {of the TOI calibration} is in learning to "cheat the pocket" with accuracy, rather than spin. This brings to a player a whole new dimension in possibilities and new abilities. 'The Game will be their Teacher'

Thank you for your comments. I hadn't heard of your 3 part pocket system before and it's very interesting.

Thanks again!

 

[CJ Wiley]

What we have done is combine ALL my instuctional videos and made them available

Thank you for your comments. I hadn't heard of your 3 part pocket system before and it's very interesting.

Thanks again!

These techniques can be learned by anyone, and it does take a three hour session to start to reap the benifits. Many of the TOI shots haven't "crossed our desks," so we are unable to recognize them without adding them to our "shot memory," - the only way to download them is through practice. I wish I could put out an APP. you could just click, download and benefit, however, I don't see one of them in the near future.

What we have done is combine ALL my instuctional videos and made them available for under $5 at www.thegameistheteacher.com this is over 5 hours and 123 sections on video that's good for 24 hours.

Play Well, The Game is Our Teacher

 

[Jpool1985]

can't wait to get paid. I am going to buy a CJ Wiley Ultimate Pool secret cause CJ Wiley using his cue stick to aim which I do the same but his and mine are different. I can't wait to learn more about TOI. I've try Pro1/CTE and been trying it for a year......it does work but it not for me cause Pro1 is very hard and it gotta be very very precise on position and all. I do exactly what the dvd says and I am doing it....I make some ball and some don't. With way I aim, I can walk up ,look ,get down then boom fire away balls go in.

 

[LAMas]

I use a low deflection Z2 shaft will it develop more inside english to get the CB to squirt?

Can I use a parallel shift and not pivot/BHE to achieve TOI?

 

[CJ Wiley]

The deflection is what creates the 3 Part Pocket System Zone

I use a low deflection Z2 shaft will it develop more inside english to get the CB to squirt?

Can I use a parallel shift and not pivot/BHE to achieve TOI?

Low deflection shafts work just fine, remember, it's the inside perspective that creates the angle, not just the deflection. The deflection is what creates the 3 Part Pocket System Zone....so you can "aim" at the side of the pocket closest to the ball (except the sides in some cases).

 

[One Pocket John]

I use a low deflection Z2 shaft will it develop more inside english to get the CB to squirt?

Can I use a parallel shift and not pivot/BHE to achieve TOI?

Hey LAMas,

Its a Parallel shift. No pivot or BHE.

I do the PS in the standing position that way when I come down, I'm there.

When using TOI stay as close to the vertical axis of the QB as you can with the tip.

Hope this helps.

John

 

[CJ Wiley]

the TOI speeds up the process of training your mind/shot relationship

Hey LAMas,

Its a Parallel shift. No pivot or BHE.

I do the PS in the standing position that way when I come down, I'm there.

When using TOI stay as close to the vertical axis of the QB as you can with the tip.

Hope this helps.

John

You're exactly right, John, and you can tell by whether you're over-cutting or under-cutting the object ball when you don't make it (when there's a pivot you will tend to undercut shots and put too much inside english on the cue ball). This is a telling factor, if you're shifting correctly, or by all means just come down to the TOI position (this is what I do when in the competitive mode), to achieve your best visual perspective.

If you just let your unconscious come down to "any TOI position it chooses" you may be pleasantly surprised what happens. To teach it I've found I must show the shift for the TOI to make sense.....once the player "real eyeses" the advantages in the system it's time to allow themselves to come straight down to the TOI position.

If you like shifting better, by all means "be at choice"......after all 'The Game is Your Teacher', and everyone plays the game in a unique style, however, the TOI speeds up the process. There's never been a champion that didn't have to experiment to fine tune their own style. Conrolling how the ball "moves/veers" will ultimately connect it to your mind so you too can just "think the cue ball to perform"......or however you want to describe it. :wink: