Problem with Schmelke longer cue stick uniloc system

[cramh]

Hi,

I play for years with Predator unilock cue sticks (one of them is the 2K2, the other one is the Ikon 2.5) and uniloc shafts (29” length 314.2 and Z2).

Because these cues are no long enough, I decided to order a custom longer cue at Schmelke company. To get a 61” cue+stick, I ordered a 31” stick and two Pedator 30” shafts.

The reason why I ordered the Predator shafts at Shmelke is that I live in Belgium and I will avoid to many transport fees; it would be the case if I order material at two different companies.

Because I want be able to play, together with the Schmelke cue stick and my prior Predator shafts and, the reverse, be able to play, together with my Ikon 2.5 and the longer 30” Predator shaft I get from Schmelke, I decided to choose uniloc joints.

What a big surprise to see that the collars of the two shafts don’t fit wit my predator cues.

CLEARLY the diameter of the ‘Schmelke/Predator’ ‘314.2’ shafts is much larger than the diameter of the all the original shafts that I get. I have to insist on the fact that these two shafts are certified true Predator traditional 314.2 shafts (none the Predator fat shafts or whathever).

It is the first time in my life that I see a predator shaft that doesn’t fit with a predator stick!

The guy from Shmelke (one of them is David, the other one is Kim) respond to me:

‘The reason the size and the collars are different is the shafts are made buy a predator partial shaft wich allows us to make custom cues with different collar and size specifications.’

Can anyone here say me if that is true? If it is, I don’t understand why they don’t say that their uniloc cues and ‘Predator’ shafts are uncompatible with real Predator products.

Another thing, the collar of the cue is damaged. The collar is not circular because there is a blow on its surface.
Pictures of the damaged collar here:

http://toutbox.fr/cramh/Divers/Cue+Heremans+2,42594405.jpg
http://toutbox.fr/cramh/Divers/Cue+Heremans+1,42594396.jpg

Hard for me to believe that the guy who prepared the shipping didn’t see that...

Anyone else have experienced such problems with Schmelke products?

Thanks,
Marc

 

[Michael Webb]

Hi,

I play for years with Predator unilock cue sticks (one of them is the 2K2, the other one is the Ikon 2.5) and uniloc shafts (29” length 314.2 and Z2).

Because these cues are no long enough, I decided to order a custom longer cue at Schmelke company. To get a 61” cue+stick, I ordered a 31” stick and two Pedator 30” shafts.

The reason why I ordered the Predator shafts at Shmelke is that I live in Belgium and I will avoid to many transport fees; it would be the case if I order material at two different companies.

Because I want be able to play, together with the Schmelke cue stick and my prior Predator shafts and, the reverse, be able to play, together with my Ikon 2.5 and the longer 30” Predator shaft I get from Schmelke, I decided to choose uniloc joints.

What a big surprise to see that the collars of the two shafts don’t fit wit my predator cues.

CLEARLY the diameter of the ‘Schmelke/Predator’ ‘314.2’ shafts is much larger than the diameter of the all the original shafts that I get. I have to insist on the fact that these two shafts are certified true Predator traditional 314.2 shafts (none the Predator fat shafts or whathever).

It is the first time in my life that I see a predator shaft that doesn’t fit with a predator stick!

The guy from Shmelke (one of them is David, the other one is Kim) respond to me:

‘The reason the size and the collars are different is the shafts are made buy a predator partial shaft wich allows us to make custom cues with different collar and size specifications.’

Can anyone here say me if that is true? If it is, I don’t understand why they don’t say that their uniloc cues and ‘Predator’ shafts are uncompatible with real Predator products.

Another thing, the collar of the cue is damaged. The collar is not circular because there is a blow on its surface.
Pictures of the damaged collar here:

http://toutbox.fr/cramh/Divers/Cue+Heremans+2,42594405.jpg
http://toutbox.fr/cramh/Divers/Cue+Heremans+1,42594396.jpg

Hard for me to believe that the guy who prepared the shipping didn’t see that...

Anyone else have experienced such problems with Schmelke products?

Thanks,
Marc

Hi Marc
I have seen Predator shafts range from .838 to .845. But unfortunately that has nothing to do with a Cue company building a cue with a uni loc joint. Only a few of us try to stay in line with Predators joint specs. I make my uni loc joints .842 because to me, it just makes sence
So people can use their existing shafts. Not everyone feels that way. Their cue, their own beliefs, David Schmelke is a true gentleman and craftsman. For you and anyone else who looks for a cue maker to make a cue with a similar joint, I think the first question should be. Will your cue interchange with this cue? Somewhat close anyway?

 

[cramh]

Michael,
I first said I wanted to order just the cue stick, to fit with My own predator shafts.
They said to me that to get a 62" lenght cue, I had to play with 30" shafts instead of 29" ones.
I could have ordered the shafts where the prices are MUCH less costly (Seybert, for ex or in Europe to avoid 25% custom taxes). I is thus obvious that teir uniloc 'Predator' shafts have to fit with Predator cue sticks. I ordered in between a Z2 uniloc shaft at Kozoom store. It is perfect for my Predator shafts bur, unfortunately, it doesn't fit with the Schmelke cue.

I agree that, as you say, David Schmelke is a true gentleman (he is very reactive to my emails) but what about the fact that I was sent a cue with the collar being damaged and thus not playable?
Marc

 

[Michael Webb]

Michael,
I first said I wanted to order just the cue stick, to fit with My own predator shafts.
They said to me that to get a 62" lenght cue, I had to play with 30" shafts instead of 29" ones.
I could have ordered the shafts where the prices are MUCH less costly (Seybert, for ex or in Europe to avoid 25% custom taxes). I is thus obvious that teir uniloc 'Predator' shafts have to fit with Predator cue sticks. I ordered in between a Z2 uniloc shaft at Kozoom store. It is perfect for my Predator shafts bur, unfortunately, it doesn't fit with the Schmelke cue.

I agree that, as you say, David Schmelke is a true gentleman (he is very reactive to my emails) but what about the fact that I was sent a cue with the collar being damaged and thus not playable?
Marc

Hi Marc
I saw your pictures but I can't, nor would I try to, answer for David. Sorry.

 

[cramh]

Hi,

I finally received a response from David from Schmelke.

He says:

Marc,
I have processed the H012 cue at the dimensions of a predator cue, with small cue butt profile. If you would specify if you would like the custom ring work or plain black with other cues.
Thanks
David

I am not sure to really understand what David means by:
'custom ring work or plain black' and
'with other cues'?

because my order was a cue stick and two Predator shafts.

Does he mean that I can choose between a custom ring (white Schmelke rings?) and a plain black ring (more traditional ring?). What is the difference between the two kinds of rings?

Thanks,
Marc

 

[jkan101]

Hi,

I finally received a response from David from Schmelke.

He says:

Marc,
I have processed the H012 cue at the dimensions of a predator cue, with small cue butt profile. If you would specify if you would like the custom ring work or plain black with other cues.
Thanks
David

I am not sure to really understand what David means by:
'custom ring work or plain black' and
'with other cues'?

because my order was a cue stick and two Predator shafts.

Does he mean that I can choose between a custom ring (white Schmelke rings?) and a plain black ring (more traditional ring?). What is the difference between the two kinds of rings?

Thanks,
Marc

Just a wild thought but why dont you ask him?????


Joe

 

[cramh]

Just a wild thought but why dont you ask him?????


Joe

I was waiting this question!

Because he has maybe something else to do, considering the fact that it is working for free here, because, as it is explained in my first post, the cue is under warranty.

And because I think that I will find people here able to enlighten me.

 

[Double-Dave]

Hi,

I play for years with Predator unilock cue sticks (one of them is the 2K2, the other one is the Ikon 2.5) and uniloc shafts (29” length 314.2 and Z2).

Because these cues are no long enough, I decided to order a custom longer cue at Schmelke company. To get a 61” cue+stick, I ordered a 31” stick and two Pedator 30” shafts.

The reason why I ordered the Predator shafts at Shmelke is that I live in Belgium and I will avoid to many transport fees; it would be the case if I order material at two different companies.

Because I want be able to play, together with the Schmelke cue stick and my prior Predator shafts and, the reverse, be able to play, together with my Ikon 2.5 and the longer 30” Predator shaft I get from Schmelke, I decided to choose uniloc joints.

What a big surprise to see that the collars of the two shafts don’t fit wit my predator cues.

CLEARLY the diameter of the ‘Schmelke/Predator’ ‘314.2’ shafts is much larger than the diameter of the all the original shafts that I get. I have to insist on the fact that these two shafts are certified true Predator traditional 314.2 shafts (none the Predator fat shafts or whathever).

It is the first time in my life that I see a predator shaft that doesn’t fit with a predator stick!

The guy from Shmelke (one of them is David, the other one is Kim) respond to me:

‘The reason the size and the collars are different is the shafts are made buy a predator partial shaft wich allows us to make custom cues with different collar and size specifications.’

Can anyone here say me if that is true? If it is, I don’t understand why they don’t say that their uniloc cues and ‘Predator’ shafts are uncompatible with real Predator products.

Another thing, the collar of the cue is damaged. The collar is not circular because there is a blow on its surface.
Pictures of the damaged collar here:

http://toutbox.fr/cramh/Divers/Cue+Heremans+2,42594405.jpg
http://toutbox.fr/cramh/Divers/Cue+Heremans+1,42594396.jpg

Hard for me to believe that the guy who prepared the shipping didn’t see that...

Anyone else have experienced such problems with Schmelke products?

Thanks,
Marc

Hi Marc,

I don't know if you speak Dutch or are from the french part of Belgium. If you speak Dutch I will
send you my cell phone number and explain in more detail.

Basically you are probably not too experienced with ordering custom cues and having after market
shafts like predator matched to such cues.

Yes, it is normal for cuemakers to order partials and modify them instead of buying a ready made
shaft even if Predator offers that type of shaft (Uni-loc in this instance). This allows them more
freedom to work on the shaft in different ways. One of the things it allows them to do is make the
shaft thicker (or thinner) at the joint of the cue. This does not make them uncompatible with real
Predato products. It just means if you put on a different shaft that it will be thinner at the joint.
Happens a lot when you buy a new Predator shaft for a cue that is not Predator.

Now, the damage to the collar is a completely different matter. I too will not comment for Schmelke
on this but will add that it might have happened during shipping or customs inspection so
there would have been no damage at all when it was packed.

Again, if you speak Dutch let's talk on the phone and I will be able to explain in more detail.

gr. Dave

 

[acedonkeyace]

Without direct communication over the phone with the cue repairman

This question will be hard to come to an answer.

You need phone or face to face communication with the cue in hand or in front of a SKYPE of some type so you can talk, ask questions, point to areas on the cue and Joint and have in depth communication.

But, I might just throw out one thing

I noticed that you are in another country, so this brings in extended shipping times and mutliple touches by many people and machines, but, the BIG thing is if the cue went through CUSTOMS.

Did the cue go through CUSTOMS??

If yes, with the collar looking to the untrained Customs Eye on Cues, they might have thought that that the collar material might be 'IVORY' if the Custom inspector or any other inspector opened up the box for inspection and saw the material and questioned if the Collar Material MAY be IVORY, no one knows what the inspector did or didnt do while inspecting and repacking the cue back into the shipping box??

You would have to have Whomever worked on the cue originally and made the collar and Finished the Cue and had the last hands on the cue before it went to final inspection and packing and shipping. Then you have to have contact with all the people that had personal contact with the Cue from Schmelke USA, USA Customs, Shipping International, Customs in France or wherever Dutch people are, then the people who had any contact with the people who had contact with the cue before it was received and opened and inspected by the BUYER of the Cue.

This is why you buy insurance on any cue I sell and keep all the tracking and touches on the package.

This can happen and I can almost guarantee it wasnt like this when it left the Schmelke Final Inspection and Packing Area. They are too professional and if damage like this was seen they would have pulled it, redone the whole collar and refinished it if necessary because their reputation and quality would not be lost on one cue for ANYONE.

Hope this helps

Mike 'acedonkeyace' Kennedy

 

[cramh]

Hi Marc,

I don't know if you speak Dutch or are from the french part of Belgium. If you speak Dutch I will
send you my cell phone number and explain in more detail...
gr. Dave

Hi Dave,

I am from the French part of Belgium.
I am aware (now) about the different joint diameters, but I specified from the begining that I wanted to be able to play with their 'Predator' shafts on my real Predator cues. It is easy to understand that even if their thicker uniloc shafts fit on my Predator cues, it is unpleasant to play with a shaft that doesn't fit exactly ...

In fact, as they agree to replace the cue with another one, that is thinner, (see my post of septeber 14th) I want just be able to answer their new question about the new cue stick.

I repeat my question here:

Hi,
I finally received a response from David from Schmelke.

He says:

Marc,
I have processed the H012 cue at the dimensions of a predator cue, with small cue butt profile. If you would specify if you would like the custom ring work or plain black with other cues.
Thanks
David

I am not sure to really understand what David means by:
'custom ring work or plain black' and
'with other cues'?

because my order was a cue stick and two Predator shafts.

Does he mean that I can choose between a custom ring (white Schmelke rings?) and a plain black ring (more traditional ring?). What is the difference between the two kinds of rings?

Marc

 

[cramh]

This question will be hard to come to an answer.

You need phone or face to face communication with the cue in hand or in front of a SKYPE of some type so you can talk, ask questions, point to areas on the cue and Joint and have in depth communication.

But, I might just throw out one thing

I noticed that you are in another country, so this brings in extended shipping times and mutliple touches by many people and machines, but, the BIG thing is if the cue went through CUSTOMS.

Did the cue go through CUSTOMS??

If yes, with the collar looking to the untrained Customs Eye on Cues, they might have thought that that the collar material might be 'IVORY' if the Custom inspector or any other inspector opened up the box for inspection and saw the material and questioned if the Collar Material MAY be IVORY, no one knows what the inspector did or didnt do while inspecting and repacking the cue back into the shipping box??

You would have to have Whomever worked on the cue originally and made the collar and Finished the Cue and had the last hands on the cue before it went to final inspection and packing and shipping. Then you have to have contact with all the people that had personal contact with the Cue from Schmelke USA, USA Customs, Shipping International, Customs in France or wherever Dutch people are, then the people who had any contact with the people who had contact with the cue before it was received and opened and inspected by the BUYER of the Cue.

This is why you buy insurance on any cue I sell and keep all the tracking and touches on the package.

This can happen and I can almost guarantee it wasnt like this when it left the Schmelke Final Inspection and Packing Area. They are too professional and if damage like this was seen they would have pulled it, redone the whole collar and refinished it if necessary because their reputation and quality would not be lost on one cue for ANYONE.

Hope this helps

Mike 'acedonkeyace' Kennedy

Thanks for this response but don't you think that if the customs is responsible , it is not the first time that Schmelke is confronted to this problem? He should have had enough time to resolve it?!

As you can see it with my post of september 14th, David Schmelke agees to change the cue with a another one with a thinner collar.

I want just be able to answer the question about this new cue (see also my response to Dave).

Marc

 

[Double-Dave]

Hi Dave,

I am from the French part of Belgium.
I am aware (now) about the different joint diameters, but I specified from the begining that I wanted to be able to play with their 'Predator' shafts on my real Predator cues. It is easy to understand that even if their thicker uniloc shafts fit on my Predator cues, it is unpleasant to play with a shaft that doesn't fit exactly ...

In fact, as they agree to replace the cue with another one, that is thinner, (see my post of septeber 14th) I want just be able to answer their new question about the new cue stick.

I repeat my question here:

Hi,
I finally received a response from David from Schmelke.

He says:

Marc,
I have processed the H012 cue at the dimensions of a predator cue, with small cue butt profile. If you would specify if you would like the custom ring work or plain black with other cues.
Thanks
David

I am not sure to really understand what David means by:
'custom ring work or plain black' and
'with other cues'?

because my order was a cue stick and two Predator shafts.

Does he mean that I can choose between a custom ring (white Schmelke rings?) and a plain black ring (more traditional ring?). What is the difference between the two kinds of rings?

Marc

Hi Marc,

I did not see all the emails between you and Schmelke but if they offer to remake the cue that is
extremely generous of them, unless you made it 100% clear you wanted a certain joint diameter.

Anyway, David is asking if you would like a simple black collar like this cue:

http://schmelkecue.com/billiard-cue...-sp-series/sp02-english-blue-stain-maple.html

Or if you want different rings on the joint like for example this one:

http://schmelkecue.com/billiard-cues/schmelke-cues/spl09-rosewood-spliced-veneers.html

gr. Dave

 

[cramh]

Hi Marc,

I did not see all the emails between you and Schmelke but if they offer to remake the cue that is
extremely generous of them, unless you made it 100% clear you wanted a certain joint diameter.

Anyway, David is asking if you would like a simple black collar like this cue:

http://schmelkecue.com/billiard-cue...-sp-series/sp02-english-blue-stain-maple.html

Or if you want different rings on the joint like for example this one:

http://schmelkecue.com/billiard-cues/schmelke-cues/spl09-rosewood-spliced-veneers.html

gr. Dave

Thanks for the links!

Concerning the diameter, I greatly disagree with you.

If someone orders a Predator shaft, they (not me) must take me pay attention on the fact that the diameter is not the same as ALL the Predator shafts that you can get anywhere else. Put it differently, the "Predator shafts" are not real Predator shafts. Because the diameter of the shaft is greater, tey don't react (deflection) in the same way as the real Predator shafts.

BTW, in the beginning of the transaction, I even said that I want to order a uniloc cue stick WITHOUT shaft. The unique reason why I decided to purchase shafts too was that the price of the stick was reduced by 30% (not sure of the exact reduction of the price) if I ordered a shaft too.

Marc

 

[Double-Dave]

Thanks for the links!

Concerning the diameter, I greatly disagree with you.

If someone orders a Predator shaft, they (not me) must take me pay attention on the fact that the diameter is not the same as ALL the Predator shafts that you can get anywhere else. Put it differently, the "Predator shafts" are not real Predator shafts. Because the diameter of the shaft is greater, tey don't react (deflection) in the same way as the real Predator shafts.

BTW, in the beginning of the transaction, I even said that I want to order a uniloc cue stick WITHOUT shaft. The unique reason why I decided to purchase shafts too was that the price of the stick was reduced by 30% (not sure of the exact reduction of the price) if I ordered a shaft too.

Marc

Hi Marc,

It's a free world and you can disagree with me. But, I have sold thousands of cues, hundreds of
customs and ordered probably 100 straight from the maker.

So, I think I know what I speak of. You did NOT order a Predator shaft. You ordered a Schmelke
cue with a Predator shaft and that is what you got. Predator themselves make these blanks
close to 23mm thick at the joint so that other cuemakers can cut them to the thickness they
normally use. It is simply the way it works. It certainly doen not make the shaft "not real".

If you feel a Predator shaft deflects differently because it is .860 at the joint instead of .840 then you
are either a much better player then me (can certainly be true) or you are mistaken. But this is not
the point. The point is you got what you ordered and were not pleased with what you got. I feel this
is your fault / lack of experience, you feel it is the cuemakers fault. I am sure that next time you will
make sure to inform the cuemaker that you want a certain joint size.

Don't be suprised if many cuemakers will tell you they will not change their joint size for you.

gr. Dave

 

[Kim Bye]

I think Double-Dave is right on the money here.
I suspect there might be a langauge barreier behind this misunderstanding.

 

[Dave38]

I think Double-Dave is right on the money here.
I suspect there might be a langauge barreier behind this misunderstanding.

I think there is a more hard headed issue here than Language issue...first of all, he should be 'talking ' to Schmelke, not us. A phone call may work wonders. Secondly, He doesn't seem to understand that Customs will open stuff up and will do as they will with it including damaging it, no matter how Schmelke packages it. Thirdly, he really has no knowledge about how Predator partials are supplied / finished for a cue. Double-Dave has done a GREAT job of trying to explain it all, but the issue seems to falling on DEAF ears...and sometimes, that is the best it will get.....not really a language issue...more of a hardheaded issue.
Dave

 

[cramh]

I think there is a more hard headed issue here than Language issue...first of all, he should be 'talking ' to Schmelke, not us. A phone call may work wonders. Secondly, He doesn't seem to understand that Customs will open stuff up and will do as they will with it including damaging it, no matter how Schmelke packages it. Thirdly, he really has no knowledge about how Predator partials are supplied / finished for a cue. Double-Dave has done a GREAT job of trying to explain it all, but the issue seems to falling on DEAF ears...and sometimes, that is the best it will get.....not really a language issue...more of a hardheaded issue.
Dave

LOL
End of thread.

 

[cramh]

Hi Marc,

It's a free world and you can disagree with me. But, I have sold thousands of cues, hundreds of
customs and ordered probably 100 straight from the maker.

So, I think I know what I speak of. You did NOT order a Predator shaft. You ordered a Schmelke
cue with a Predator shaft and that is what you got. Predator themselves make these blanks
close to 23mm thick at the joint so that other cuemakers can cut them to the thickness they
normally use. It is simply the way it works. It certainly doen not make the shaft "not real".

If you feel a Predator shaft deflects differently because it is .860 at the joint instead of .840 then you
are either a much better player then me (can certainly be true) or you are mistaken. But this is not
the point. The point is you got what you ordered and were not pleased with what you got. I feel this
is your fault / lack of experience, you feel it is the cuemakers fault. I am sure that next time you will
make sure to inform the cuemaker that you want a certain joint size.

Don't be suprised if many cuemakers will tell you they will not change their joint size for you.

gr. Dave

Even if I disagree partially with you (luckily, sa you say it 'It's a free world'), I much appreciate your professional response.

Maybe, even if I did it, had I to insist more on the fact that I intended to split between their shafts and my Predator cue sticks, and thus insist on the fact that the diameter of the joints had to be similar to the Predator cue sticks (Ikon 2.5, for ex.).

About the fact of changing the cue stick, don't forget that David agrees to change the cue stick, not because I don't appreciate the diameter of the joint, but because the joint is damaged.

And, as I said it before, I will insist on the fact that I REALLY appreciate the guys from Schmelke (David and Kim) because they react to the mails and, if the cue was not damaged, I would really love it (lenght, balance, ...)

Marc

 

[cueman]

I build my joints to a standard size of .850". Predator cues are normally in the .840" range. Schmelke likes a little larger joint also. They built a Predator shaft to match the cue you ordered from them and not the cue you already have. So they did nothing wrong as far as I can see. I have matched Predator shafts up to my .850" joint. So yes it is true that they can build a Predator shaft to almost any joint size if they start with a Predator partial blank. You will need to request your joint size to be .840" if you want a close fit in the future.