Question for Dr. Dave on cue weight

Roger Long

Sonoran Cue Creations
Silver Member
I've wondered about this before also, because I can't think of any possible advantage for a super-heavy cue.

Regards,
Dave

And neither can I. After that little aluminum toy came out in the early '90's that made it ridiculously easy to jump a ball, I could understand the reasoning behind putting a minimum length and a maximum diameter on a cue. But to have no maximum length restriction, while putting a maximum weight on a cue, doesn't make a whole lot of sense to me.

My reason for asking this question is this: I recently built a standard 58" cue for a guy who asked me to also build him a 12" screw-on extension for the back of the cue. No problem. Then he asked me to build him a 4" extension to go between the butt and the shaft, which would then make the cue 74 inches long when using the two extensions together. Again, no problem. However, a problem arose when we discovered that using both extensions together puts the cue slightly over the maximum allowable weight limit.

Now I could solve this "problem" by building two new extensions out of lighter weight materials, but why should that be necessary? Why does there have to be a maximum weight limit?

Roger
 

dr_dave

Instructional Author
Gold Member
Silver Member
Okay. Bob Jewett, can you help me with this?
FYI, I just sent Bob an e-mail pointing him to this thread and asking him to comment on why he thinks the WPA includes a maximum limit on cue weight.

Good thread,
Dave
 

ENGLISH!

Banned
Silver Member
Well PJ,

It looks to me like you have to have the last word to appear that you are right and everyone else is wrong so this is my last post on this subject.

After I was in a motorcycle accident about 10 years ago, I lost most of the skin off the end of the middle finger of my right hand along with my fingernail.

When the bandages came off, my finger was so sensitive that I could run my finger across a multi color cloth with my eyes closed and detect where the colors changed.
That put new light on the movies where safe crackers sanded their finger tips.

I'm sorry that you are missing out on so many things others can feel.

Al

Yeah Al,

It's amazing to me how the ones that can't are always the ones telling those that can what they can't.

It's also more easy to get a feel for where the balance of a cue is by holding it with one hand & one usually uses the back hand than when it is supported by the two hands with the center of gravity somewhere in between them.

Most balance scales have a fulcrum with a SINGLE balancing point. I've never seen one with two supporting points.

There is a scale for measuring the swing weight of golf clubs that supports the club on top of the grip but under the club at a point along the shaft & weights are placed to counter balance the head weight. A club can have the exact same weight but FEEL much heavier than another depending the actual head weight or lack of grip weight. You can tell the difference with both hands but it is much easier to do with one hand.

Best 2 Ya.
 
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BrianaBrown13

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Roger, if you want to do some kind of experiment. I have that "really heavy" break cue (I think its 24oz) I got from Dave Piona back in the late 80's, my Falcon break cue is about 20oz and whatever other cues, I have a scale, and the predator break speed app. Could do something some Saturday in Bullshooters when there is nothing going on.
 

Patrick Johnson

Fish of the Day
Silver Member
It's also more easy to get a feel for where the balance of a cue is by holding it with one hand & one usually uses the back hand...
How is that done when shooting, where you'd have to be to feel the stick being "pushed" or "pulled"?

pj
chgo
 

Bob Jewett

AZB Osmium Member
Staff member
Gold Member
Silver Member
FYI, I just sent Bob an e-mail pointing him to this thread and asking him to comment on why he thinks the WPA includes a maximum limit on cue weight.

Good thread,
Dave
I don't recall any specific reason. I imagine that someone said at one time, "I can't imagine anyone playing with a cue heavier than 25 ounces." Some masse cues might be counterexamples.

In general you want to avoid players doing things that are so unconventional that the game is changed. That includes equipment and use of equipment. I think 25 ounces is a reasonable limit until someone comes along who has a good reason for playing with a heavier stick.

In any case, I don't think stick weight is ever checked. I imagine that some of the PVC-pipe cue extenders put the total weight above 25 ounces. They look pretty heavy.
 

Roger Long

Sonoran Cue Creations
Silver Member
I don't recall any specific reason. I imagine that someone said at one time, "I can't imagine anyone playing with a cue heavier than 25 ounces." Some masse cues might be counterexamples.

In general you want to avoid players doing things that are so unconventional that the game is changed. That includes equipment and use of equipment. I think 25 ounces is a reasonable limit until someone comes along who has a good reason for playing with a heavier stick.

In any case, I don't think stick weight is ever checked. I imagine that some of the PVC-pipe cue extenders put the total weight above 25 ounces. They look pretty heavy.

Thank you for that, Bob.

Roger
 

ENGLISH!

Banned
Silver Member
How is that done when shooting, where you'd have to be to feel the stick being "pushed" or "pulled"?

pj
chgo

My bad & sorry if I missed something about doing so when shooting.

However the balance point & center of gravity is in front of the back hand.

We've had a long thread awhile back regarding pushing or pulling the cue.

Is the hand being pulled in toward the body/shoulder or being pushed away from the body/shoulder... at contact.

Pendulum pulled into or piston pushed through.

What does the weight & balance point of the cue have to do with that? It either will be balanced closer to or further in front of the back hand.

I think what you were referring to may have been the weight as it sits on the front hand. It seems that I may have misunderstood & I apologize but bridge length & where the back hand is connected to the cue can affect that 'feeling'.

I think several of us may have been talking about two different things.

One can have a rather light cue that is still balanced a bit more forward.

That was one of features that made George Balabuska's cues so liked & preferred... the balance.

Best Wishes.
 
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Patrick Johnson

Fish of the Day
Silver Member
Pendulum pulled into or piston pushed through.
This question was if the back hand can feel whether the cue is being "pushed" or "pulled" depending on where the cue is balanced. My point was that the back hand by itself can't feel whether more of the cue's weight is forward (being "pushed") or rearward (being "pulled"), so it shouldn't matter to the feel of the stroke.

pj
chgo
 

ENGLISH!

Banned
Silver Member
This question was if the back hand can feel whether the cue is being "pushed" or "pulled" depending on where the cue is balanced. My point was that the back hand by itself can't feel whether more of the cue's weight is forward (being "pushed") or rearward (being "pulled"), so it shouldn't matter to the feel of the stroke.

pj
chgo

That may be where I took something incorrectly.

However...

The back hand, for some, can feel if the weight of the cue is back toward the hand or more forward on the cue.

That, however does not matter, with regards to pulling or pushing as the center of gravity of the cue is within a few inches that are all forward of the back hand.

The pull push thread was long & had quite a lot of different opinions & explanations. Most of them were not applicable IMO. To me it comes down to bio-mechanical 'feel'.

When the cue/hand goes back the angle between the lower & upper arm is increasing & being pushed away from the shoulder. When it changes directions the angle is decreasing & being pulled toward the shoulder til it reaches 90* & then increases again & being pushed for a piston or piston J stroke. If the angle continues to lessen as in a full pendulum stroke, then it is still being pulled as the hand aproaches the shoulder.

As to the ball & whether it, the cue/tip is being pulled or pushed into it depends on the angle between the lower & upper arm just before, at, & during contact.

Timing is very important regarding the stroke as to whether it was a 'good stroke' or a 'bad stroke'.

As has been said, some can 'feel' more than others.

That is not a knock on anyone or a compliment to anyone. It's just the way things are.

Best Wishes.
 
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david(tx)

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I guess if you switched to a heavier cue and used the same effort to move it, the slower speed plus greater mass would result in the same CB speed.


Your hand/arm can't tell the difference.

pj
chgo

Your hand/arm can't tell the difference.

Your arm can definitely tell how weight is distributed . Take a 55 gallon drum and fill it half full of liquid then tilt it against your body and roll it on the floor and up on to a pallet . Now take and cut the bottom out and weld it half way up , fill the top half with liquid and perform the same task . You will definitely feel a difference in how you handle the weight . Take a cue and hold it at the end of the shaft a sling it by whirling it over your head , then grab the butt end and do the same.
 

Bob Jewett

AZB Osmium Member
Staff member
Gold Member
Silver Member
... Your arm can definitely tell how weight is distributed . ...
I think you can only really tell where the balance point of the cue is (center of mass). I think you cannot tell how the weight is distributed up and down the cue stick. In order to do so you need to rotate the cue about an axis perpendicular to the major axis and note the moment of inertia. Even that measurement, if you developed the technique to do it, only gives a single number. There are many weight distributions that give the same moment of inertia just as there are many weight distributions that give the same center of mass.
 

david(tx)

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I think you can only really tell where the balance point of the cue is (center of mass). I think you cannot tell how the weight is distributed up and down the cue stick. In order to do so you need to rotate the cue about an axis perpendicular to the major axis and note the moment of inertia. Even that measurement, if you developed the technique to do it, only gives a single number. There are many weight distributions that give the same moment of inertia just as there are many weight distributions that give the same center of mass.

I think you can only really tell where the balance point of the cue is (center of mass

Yes , it is the balance point. You will notice it physically like liquid in the drum where the balance point is changed. You could use a more stable weight like a powder , same thing. Your arm seems to be 2 levers and 3 fulcrums and depending on the ratio in length of the humerus to the radius/ulna each individual will interpret this differently. I prefer a slight forward balance point , i think my stroke is straighter with that bias , i don't think it is perceived , i think it is real.
 

Jal

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I don't follow. How would a lighter cue produce more speed/spin when hitting off-center? Why only off-center?

pj
chgo
It's been several years since I did the math. Forgive me, but in my lazy dotage I just don't feel like looking up the details. (Actually, the fewer details the better, I guess.) But here's the gist of it.

If you apply a specific force over a certain distance (e.g., bridge length) to an initially stationary object, that object will end up with a specific kinetic energy. It doesn't matter how heavy or light the object happens to be; it will have that much energy, and no more and no less. If it then collides square on (e.g., center ball) with another object of exactly the same mass, it stops and the second object will "acquire" all of the first object's kinetic energy, as I think we all know. If the masses aren't equal, the first object will either rebound somewhat or continue forward after the collision, thus "retaining" some of that kinetic energy in either case. As a result, the second object will come away with less. So having the masses equal will ensure that the second object ends up with the most energy (speed).

The reason we don't play with 6 oz cues is that the force our arms generate must move not only the cue but our arms themselves. Their mass prevents us from generating the cue speed we would get by applying the same force directly to the cue, bypassing our arms. Given this unavoidable load (our arms), and the fact that once the cue makes contact with the ball that load is irrelevant (decoupled) from the collision, it pays to use a cue heavier than the cueball because the increase in the cue's kinetic energy from the added mass outstrips the reduction in speed from adding that mass to the combined (and preloaded) arm/cue system. Some of that energy is wasted in the form of non-zero post-collision cue velocity, but there's still a net gain. That's true up to a point, that is, and that point is the optimal cue mass for a center-ball hit...at least from an efficiency point of view. Add more weight and the cue/arm combination slows down too much. If you substituted a lighter ball, the optimal mass would shift to a lighter weight accordingly. (End of long preamble which I'm know you already understand).

When you hit off center, the cue, in effect, sees less of the cueball's mass. The farther off center, the less of the mass it sees. Analogous to a center-ball hit with a lighter cueball, the optimal cue weight is correspondingly reduced.

I don't know if that's at all convincing. It's kind of hard (for me) to translate the math into the vernacular (even if I did revisit the details).

To repeat an earlier point, though, that's the simple physics of it. When you add bio-mechanics, things aren't so clear. You can probably generate more force against a heavier cue, so the above assumption of a single value for the force, regardless of cue weight, doesn't rest on very solid ground. While a lighter cue might possibly still be the way to go for a power draw shot, the best weight likely wouldn't represent as great a reduction as the "naive" physics would suggest. Of course, if its weight is already below optimum for a center-ball hit, that would make any benefit from a reduction even less likely.

Jim
 
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dr_dave

Instructional Author
Gold Member
Silver Member
Excellent post, Jim.

For those who want more explanation concerning physiology and other factors, see the following article in last month's Billiards Digest:

"Optimal Cue Weight" (BD, October, 2015)

I'm sure those interested in this thread will also find the article interesting. I did my best to explain things as plainly as possible.

Enjoy,
Dave


It's been several years since I did the math. Forgive me, but in my lazy dotage I just don't feel like looking up the details. (Actually, the fewer details the better, I guess.) But here's the gist of it.

If you apply a specific force over a certain distance (e.g., bridge length) to an initially stationary object, that object will end up with a specific kinetic energy. It doesn't matter how heavy or light the object happens to be; it will have that much energy, and no more and no less. If it then collides square on (e.g., center ball) with another object of exactly the same mass, it stops and the second object will "acquire" all of the first object's kinetic energy, as I think we all know. If the masses aren't equal, the first object will either rebound somewhat or continue forward after the collision, thus "retaining" some of that kinetic energy in either case. As a result, the second object will come away with less. So having the masses equal will ensure that the second object ends up with the most energy (speed).

The reason we don't play with 6 oz cues is that the force our arms generate must move not only the cue but our arms themselves. Their mass prevents us from generating the cue speed we would get by applying the same force directly to the cue, bypassing our arms. Given this unavoidable load (our arms), and the fact that once the cue makes contact with the ball that load is irrelevant (decoupled) from the collision, it pays to use a cue heavier than the cueball because the increase in the cue's kinetic energy from the added mass outstrips the reduction in speed from adding that mass to the combined (and preloaded) arm/cue system. Some of that energy is wasted in the form of non-zero post-collision cue velocity, but there's still a net gain. That's true up to a point, that is, and that point is the optimal cue mass for a center-ball hit...at least from an efficiency point of view. Add more weight and the cue/arm combination slows down too much. If you substituted a lighter ball, the optimal mass would shift to a lighter weight accordingly. (End of long preamble which I'm know you already understand).

When you hit off center, the cue, in effect, sees less of the cueball's mass. The farther off center, the less of the mass it sees. Analogous to a center-ball hit with a lighter cueball, the optimal cue weight is correspondingly reduced.

I don't know if that's at all convincing. It's kind of hard (for me) to translate the math into the vernacular (even if I did revisit the details).

To repeat an earlier point, though, that's the simple physics of it. When you add bio-mechanics, things aren't so clear. You can probably generate more force against a heavier cue, so the above assumption of a single value for the force, regardless of cue weight, doesn't rest on very solid ground. While a lighter cue might possibly still be the way to go for a power draw shot, the best weight likely wouldn't represent as great a reduction as the "naive" physics would suggest. Of course, if its weight is already below optimum for a center-ball hit, that would make any benefit from a reduction even less likely.

Jim
 

Patrick Johnson

Fish of the Day
Silver Member
The back hand, for some, can feel if the weight of the cue is back toward the hand or more forward on the cue.
No, it can't, not even "for some".

Imagine the back hand replaced by a string attached to a measuring device. What information would the measuring device receive that it could translate to an indication of the cue's weight distribution? None - same for your hand.

pj
chgo
 

ENGLISH!

Banned
Silver Member
No, it can't, not even "for some".

Imagine the back hand replaced by a string attached to a measuring device. What information would the measuring device receive that it could translate to an indication of the cue's weight distribution? None - same for your hand.

pj
chgo

A string has no brain & no knowledge & knows nothing about torque.

It's statements like these that indicate you are not well versed & makes you look like a 'parrot' ...

or... you are just disingenuous in very many of your 'arguments' as you take matters out of complete context, as you so often do.

Just to be clear it is not THE HAND that makes the discernment...

but the BRAIN to which the hand is connected & receives 'signals'.

The human body, brain, & MIND, are amazing Creations when everything is put into complete context & the Real BIG Picture is 'seen'.

Best Wishes.
 
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