Replacing facings became an even bigger job, turned book *update*

[Dopc]

This is the conclusion to the original thread Found here: "Quick facing question turned book"

Josh, you said if I was brave enough……. Just saying….. Lol

First I would like to thank Josh for taking the time for a quote over the phone, a real pleasure to speak with. I feel bad due to the fact he gave me an outstandingly low quote for the job and in hindsight I now wished I had gone through with it. It would have been the best money I spent in a long while, even though the tables value didn't warrant it.
There truly are two reasons I elected to tackle this myself. First, bottom line is the table has so little value it wasn’t truly worth the additional investment. If it were a Diamond, GC, Gandy commercial table etc etc, that would be a different story. Not to say this table is junk, it just has no value at all. Second, In the near future when I do buy that $9,000 table, I want to know exactly why I’m spending the money and not just because of the badge on it. This table is my fill-in table until that happens (remodel went over budget and is still not complete. Flooring will be installed in the coming days), and this is also my table to learn the ins and outs of table design, construction and maintenance. Sorry Josh ( I still feel I owe you a few cold ones), But now I know I have an excellent almost local table mechanic available to me in the future and will be more than comfortable to refer others to as well).

I would also like to thank RKC, not only for cryptically helping with my facing questions, but his (and others as well) contributions of a wealth of information made available to this community. I can’t thank you all enough.

Flame me and criticize my work all you guys want. I can take it, I’m a big boy. This is my first attempt at doing anything to a pool table other than playing or abusing one. I probably did a few things not so well, but for a first swing at it, things turned out way better than I expected. Let me just say right now, I would NOT recommend someone in my same shoes taking this on. I have a finish carpentry background so that assisted this in many ways. Being familiar with tools and working with various materials in addition to safety is of the utmost importance.

The table plays very well now, at least to my standards. A run-out has to be earned and the pockets are not so much the buckets they were( so long as you didn’t touch a cushion). Shots that should have been pocketed before and bobbled out, now fall and shots that should bobble out and not fall, well they do not fall. The rails were so wavy all around the table at least a good quarter inch from high to low. The pocket corner angles were all so wrong and mismatched it’s almost comical (no wait, it’s frickin hilarious is what it was).

I had already purchased the 860hr when I finally got to looking into the rest of the tables issues. Upon discovery of the major cushion issues, I also bought some pro-form cushion rubbers ($79 if memory serves me correctly). I wanted Artemis but was afraid of destroying exspensive material if things went south. I had fully planned on calling Josh if things indeed went to crap on me to bail me out. If he was doing the job he would be using the Artemis. At the end of the day, the table just doesn’t warrant the investment as stated before. I also ordered some 60 durometer neoprene facings. Now I have an extra set of Seyberts 3/8 facings and the crappy ones they send when you buy new cushions of which will see the trash can very soon. I think I’m going to glue(super77) the Seybert facings on the cabinet where balls fired into the leather pockets come in contact with the cabinet and cause a loud thud (I‘ll call these cabinet facings…lol).

So there you have it, I’m not completely sure why I went to all the trouble to document this process. I guess it’s in hopes of some sort of payback to the contributors of the wealth of information provided here. I like to think of it as a way of saying thanks to the contributors who have spent the massive amounts of time to document and give us, the end users the information on these various types of work. It still takes an eye for detail and a knowledge of tools and materials to execute a good repair, some have it, and most don’t ( not to offend anyone nor to imply that I do ). In the end, I am happy and have a much, much better playing table than I bought. Thanks to all.

Dopc.

Here are a couple pictures. I will also link to a full album of over 50 pictures I took over the process.

click here for the 50+ picture album hosted at imgur.com

 

[realkingcobra]

This is the conclusion to the original thread Found here: "Quick facing question turned book"

Josh, you said if I was brave enough……. Just saying….. Lol

First I would like to thank Josh for taking the time for a quote over the phone, a real pleasure to speak with. I feel bad due to the fact he gave me an outstandingly low quote for the job and in hindsight I now wished I had gone through with it. It would have been the best money I spent in a long while, even though the tables value didn't warrant it.
There truly are two reasons I elected to tackle this myself. First, bottom line is the table has so little value it wasn’t truly worth the additional investment. If it were a Diamond, GC, Gandy commercial table etc etc, that would be a different story. Not to say this table is junk, it just has no value at all. Second, In the near future when I do buy that $9,000 table, I want to know exactly why I’m spending the money and not just because of the badge on it. This table is my fill-in table until that happens (remodel went over budget and is still not complete. Flooring will be installed in the coming days), and this is also my table to learn the ins and outs of table design, construction and maintenance. Sorry Josh ( I still feel I owe you a few cold ones), But now I know I have an excellent almost local table mechanic available to me in the future and will be more than comfortable to refer others to as well).

I would also like to thank RKC, not only for cryptically helping with my facing questions, but his (and others as well) contributions of a wealth of information made available to this community. I can’t thank you all enough.

Flame me and criticize my work all you guys want. I can take it, I’m a big boy. This is my first attempt at doing anything to a pool table other than playing or abusing one. I probably did a few things not so well, but for a first swing at it, things turned out way better than I expected. Let me just say right now, I would NOT recommend someone in my same shoes taking this on. I have a finish carpentry background so that assisted this in many ways. Being familiar with tools and working with various materials in addition to safety is of the utmost importance.

The table plays very well now, at least to my standards. A run-out has to be earned and the pockets are not so much the buckets they were( so long as you didn’t touch a cushion). Shots that should have been pocketed before and bobbled out, now fall and shots that should bobble out and not fall, well they do not fall. The rails were so wavy all around the table at least a good quarter inch from high to low. The pocket corner angles were all so wrong and mismatched it’s almost comical (no wait, it’s frickin hilarious is what it was).

I had already purchased the 860hr when I finally got to looking into the rest of the tables issues. Upon discovery of the major cushion issues, I also bought some pro-form cushion rubbers ($79 if memory serves me correctly). I wanted Artemis but was afraid of destroying exspensive material if things went south. I had fully planned on calling Josh if things indeed went to crap on me to bail me out. If he was doing the job he would be using the Artemis. At the end of the day, the table just doesn’t warrant the investment as stated before. I also ordered some 60 durometer neoprene facings. Now I have an extra set of Seyberts 3/8 facings and the crappy ones they send when you buy new cushions of which will see the trash can very soon. I think I’m going to glue(super77) the Seybert facings on the cabinet where balls fired into the leather pockets come in contact with the cabinet and cause a loud thud (I‘ll call these cabinet facings…lol).

So there you have it, I’m not completely sure why I went to all the trouble to document this process. I guess it’s in hopes of some sort of payback to the contributors of the wealth of information provided here. I like to think of it as a way of saying thanks to the contributors who have spent the massive amounts of time to document and give us, the end users the information on these various types of work. It still takes an eye for detail and a knowledge of tools and materials to execute a good repair, some have it, and most don’t ( not to offend anyone nor to imply that I do ). In the end, I am happy and have a much, much better playing table than I bought. Thanks to all.

Dopc.

Here are a couple pictures. I will also link to a full album of over 50 pictures I took over the process.

click here for the 50+ picture album hosted at imgur.com

You should be proud of what you did, it's better than a lot of the work I see other mechanic's out here doing, good job buddy!*-

 

[Dopc]

You should be proud of what you did, it's better than a lot of the work I see other mechanic's out here doing, good job buddy!*-

Glenn. Thank you very much for the kind words. Hearing this from someone who's work I admire is quite the "pat on the back" feeling. After all, without yours (and others) contributions, I don't think I could have got as far as I did. I look forward to your future instructional posts (and future interactions with one another) showing the inner details of what makes a great craftsman in this industry.

Dopc.

 

[kickshotkid]

Awesome work!!

This is the conclusion to the original thread Found here: "Quick facing question turned book"

Josh, you said if I was brave enough……. Just saying….. Lol

First I would like to thank Josh for taking the time for a quote over the phone, a real pleasure to speak with. I feel bad due to the fact he gave me an outstandingly low quote for the job and in hindsight I now wished I had gone through with it. It would have been the best money I spent in a long while, even though the tables value didn't warrant it.
There truly are two reasons I elected to tackle this myself. First, bottom line is the table has so little value it wasn’t truly worth the additional investment. If it were a Diamond, GC, Gandy commercial table etc etc, that would be a different story. Not to say this table is junk, it just has no value at all. Second, In the near future when I do buy that $9,000 table, I want to know exactly why I’m spending the money and not just because of the badge on it. This table is my fill-in table until that happens (remodel went over budget and is still not complete. Flooring will be installed in the coming days), and this is also my table to learn the ins and outs of table design, construction and maintenance. Sorry Josh ( I still feel I owe you a few cold ones), But now I know I have an excellent almost local table mechanic available to me in the future and will be more than comfortable to refer others to as well).

I would also like to thank RKC, not only for cryptically helping with my facing questions, but his (and others as well) contributions of a wealth of information made available to this community. I can’t thank you all enough.

Flame me and criticize my work all you guys want. I can take it, I’m a big boy. This is my first attempt at doing anything to a pool table other than playing or abusing one. I probably did a few things not so well, but for a first swing at it, things turned out way better than I expected. Let me just say right now, I would NOT recommend someone in my same shoes taking this on. I have a finish carpentry background so that assisted this in many ways. Being familiar with tools and working with various materials in addition to safety is of the utmost importance.

The table plays very well now, at least to my standards. A run-out has to be earned and the pockets are not so much the buckets they were( so long as you didn’t touch a cushion). Shots that should have been pocketed before and bobbled out, now fall and shots that should bobble out and not fall, well they do not fall. The rails were so wavy all around the table at least a good quarter inch from high to low. The pocket corner angles were all so wrong and mismatched it’s almost comical (no wait, it’s frickin hilarious is what it was).

I had already purchased the 860hr when I finally got to looking into the rest of the tables issues. Upon discovery of the major cushion issues, I also bought some pro-form cushion rubbers ($79 if memory serves me correctly). I wanted Artemis but was afraid of destroying exspensive material if things went south. I had fully planned on calling Josh if things indeed went to crap on me to bail me out. If he was doing the job he would be using the Artemis. At the end of the day, the table just doesn’t warrant the investment as stated before. I also ordered some 60 durometer neoprene facings. Now I have an extra set of Seyberts 3/8 facings and the crappy ones they send when you buy new cushions of which will see the trash can very soon. I think I’m going to glue(super77) the Seybert facings on the cabinet where balls fired into the leather pockets come in contact with the cabinet and cause a loud thud (I‘ll call these cabinet facings…lol).

So there you have it, I’m not completely sure why I went to all the trouble to document this process. I guess it’s in hopes of some sort of payback to the contributors of the wealth of information provided here. I like to think of it as a way of saying thanks to the contributors who have spent the massive amounts of time to document and give us, the end users the information on these various types of work. It still takes an eye for detail and a knowledge of tools and materials to execute a good repair, some have it, and most don’t ( not to offend anyone nor to imply that I do ). In the end, I am happy and have a much, much better playing table than I bought. Thanks to all.

Dopc.

Here are a couple pictures. I will also link to a full album of over 50 pictures I took over the process.

click here for the 50+ picture album hosted at imgur.com

Very well done, the only problem I see is the part where you call yourself a DIY hack because you are most definitely not a hack. Your side pocket folds look awesome BTW, I have the DVDs and I don't think mine looked that good lol. Very inspirational post as I am about to do the same thing to my GC1 and if it comes out near that nice I will be more than happy.

 

[Dopc]

Very well done, the only problem I see is the part where you call yourself a DIY hack because you are most definitely not a hack. Your side pocket folds look awesome BTW, I have the DVDs and I don't think mine looked that good lol. Very inspirational post as I am about to do the same thing to my GC1 and if it comes out near that nice I will be more than happy.

Thank you very much for taking the time to comment and your compliments as well. I spent an absurd ammount of time paying attention to every detail almost to an obsessive point. I spent countless hours and read almost every relevant post here (all 170 some pages and only skipping the silly stuff). Everything is here, it's just not in the usual step by step instructional style people would like to have. One has to be more of a detective. Taking what is shown and more importantly what is talked about and piece it all together. One will also have to use some common sense and fill in the gaps in addition to deciding which conflicting information to keep and which to toss out (and ask questions here, hopefully a kind sole will nudge you in the right direction. What won't happen is someone hand holding and giving a detailed step by step).
Sounds like you have a wonderful table (one that I would LOVE to have as well). You will be facing much tougher challenges than I had to overcome. Such as subrail corrections for the cushions made these days (if I understand your table from all I've read here). I had it easy really, mine was just a basic removal, clean up and replacement.
I'm not going to lie, I was stressed out to the max durring a few steps. At times I had to put everything down and walk away for a bit and do some more research, or look at other peoples posts and pictures to get refocused and motivated to proceed. Having the right tools is priceless, along with being familiar with how to use them. I didn't have those tools, I only used basic hand tools to accomplish this. The big killer with work like this is getting in a hurry or rushing and BAMMMM, catastrophe...... I was to affraid of using a powertool and having the speed of that tool causing damage beyond my comfort zone to repair. In doing that I had countless hours of just sitting at the table sanding, and sanding, and sanding even more until I could not feel my hands or fingers (they are still stiff several days later. I still can't fully enjoy shooting on it long as my hands & wrist muscles are still very sore and mad as hell at me).
In the end, I honestly suprised myself once it was all done, fully assembled and I had a chance to bang some balls around. It really only hit me last night as I was shutting down the room for the night and just before I shut off the table light, I looked at the table and it just suddenly sunk in just what I had accomplished. I also had my son help with some of the light work and ripping off the old rubber, he enjoyed doing that and I cherrished the time we spent together doing it.
In the end, I looked at it as a $500 action match (860hr+rubber+facings+adhesive+tools+a stupid ammount of free time). I also had the advantage of having a qualified pro (Josh on the forum here) just a phone call away if the stuff hit the fan. Let me tell you this, just having that as an option certainly lightened my stress levels.
If your willing to take the gamble and risks involved give it a go. But, I highly reccomend two things. One, find a great mechanic and have that as a secondary last option. Two, research, read, research and read some more, then read it all again and again until you have removed all doubts and questions. Once all that is done, then dive in naked and hope for the best, that's pretty much all you can do really. Take your time and don't rush a single step as thats when it hits the fan.
I wish you luck and don't be affraid to ask questions here. Don't mean you'll get an answer, but you certainly won't get one if you don't ask. In addition, don't forget to document your project and share it here, trust me, it's half the fun of the project...

Dopc.

 

[JZMechanix]

Great job sir, as RKC said, better than many other hack work jobs I've come across by people that do tables for a living! :thumbup:

 

[Crash]

Considering the value of the table just makes good sense. I have fourteen 20+ year old Valleys worth maybe $300 - $500 each so its not worth getting a true mechanic to work on them. They'll never be perfect but the information I've gained here over 4 years has been invaluable and allowed me to keep them up as best I can. Maybe one day Glen, Mark or one of the other pros will travel through Huntsville to work on the Diamonds at pool halls X, Y and Z and tell me if I'm screwing up. :thumbup:

 

[kickshotkid]

Thank you very much for taking the time to comment and your compliments as well. I spent an absurd ammount of time paying attention to every detail almost to an obsessive point. I spent countless hours and read almost every relevant post here (all 170 some pages and only skipping the silly stuff). Everything is here, it's just not in the usual step by step instructional style people would like to have. One has to be more of a detective. Taking what is shown and more importantly what is talked about and piece it all together. One will also have to use some common sense and fill in the gaps in addition to deciding which conflicting information to keep and which to toss out (and ask questions here, hopefully a kind sole will nudge you in the right direction. What won't happen is someone hand holding and giving a detailed step by step).
Sounds like you have a wonderful table (one that I would LOVE to have as well). You will be facing much tougher challenges than I had to overcome. Such as subrail corrections for the cushions made these days (if I understand your table from all I've read here). I had it easy really, mine was just a basic removal, clean up and replacement.
I'm not going to lie, I was stressed out to the max durring a few steps. At times I had to put everything down and walk away for a bit and do some more research, or look at other peoples posts and pictures to get refocused and motivated to proceed. Having the right tools is priceless, along with being familiar with how to use them. I didn't have those tools, I only used basic hand tools to accomplish this. The big killer with work like this is getting in a hurry or rushing and BAMMMM, catastrophe...... I was to affraid of using a powertool and having the speed of that tool causing damage beyond my comfort zone to repair. In doing that I had countless hours of just sitting at the table sanding, and sanding, and sanding even more until I could not feel my hands or fingers (they are still stiff several days later. I still can't fully enjoy shooting on it long as my hands & wrist muscles are still very sore and mad as hell at me).
In the end, I honestly suprised myself once it was all done, fully assembled and I had a chance to bang some balls around. It really only hit me last night as I was shutting down the room for the night and just before I shut off the table light, I looked at the table and it just suddenly sunk in just what I had accomplished. I also had my son help with some of the light work and ripping off the old rubber, he enjoyed doing that and I cherrished the time we spent together doing it.
In the end, I looked at it as a $500 action match (860hr+rubber+facings+adhesive+tools+a stupid ammount of free time). I also had the advantage of having a qualified pro (Josh on the forum here) just a phone call away if the stuff hit the fan. Let me tell you this, just having that as an option certainly lightened my stress levels.
If your willing to take the gamble and risks involved give it a go. But, I highly reccomend two things. One, find a great mechanic and have that as a secondary last option. Two, research, read, research and read some more, then read it all again and again until you have removed all doubts and questions. Once all that is done, then dive in naked and hope for the best, that's pretty much all you can do really. Take your time and don't rush a single step as thats when it hits the fan.
I wish you luck and don't be affraid to ask questions here. Don't mean you'll get an answer, but you certainly won't get one if you don't ask. In addition, don't forget to document your project and share it here, trust me, it's half the fun of the project...

Dopc.

Thanks for the advise, My plan is actually pretty much everything you said right down to the back up Mechanic. So with seeing your success it shows me I am on the right track. Of course you are right I do have to do some more in depth work with the rails if I want it to play at it's best and be regulation( which I of course do), and I am gonna be sanding it down for staining or painting not sure which yet. I will for sure document and share the project unless it just comes out completely embarrassing

 

[Dopc]

Great job sir, as RKC said, better than many other hack work jobs I've come across by people that do tables for a living! :thumbup:

JZM. Stop, I'm blushing already. Seriously though, thank you for the comment and compliment. Makes me feel all warm and fuzzy hearing such positive feedback from people I have grown to respect here on AZB.

Considering the value of the table just makes good sense. I have fourteen 20+ year old Valleys worth maybe $300 - $500 each so its not worth getting a true mechanic to work on them. They'll never be perfect but the information I've gained here over 4 years has been invaluable and allowed me to keep them up as best I can. Maybe one day Glen, Mark or one of the other pros will travel through Huntsville to work on the Diamonds at pool halls X, Y and Z and tell me if I'm screwing up. :thumbup:

Crash. It sure sounds like you have your hands full maintaining 14 Valleys. I look forward to hearing more from you and just take your time doing any work. I think rushing or working fast brings on the most issues really.

Thanks for the advise, My plan is actually pretty much everything you said right down to the back up Mechanic. So with seeing your success it shows me I am on the right track. Of course you are right I do have to do some more in depth work with the rails if I want it to play at it's best and be regulation( which I of course do), and I am gonna be sanding it down for staining or painting not sure which yet. I will for sure document and share the project unless it just comes out completely embarrassing

Kickshotkid. No problem at all. I wish I had more knowledge to share with others, but most everything I know I've learned here and would only be repeating others words like a parrot. As for being embarrased, forget about it. I was embarrased to post this, but then thought what the heck and went for it. It's not like people were going to come to my house and hang "Table Hack" signs in my yard...lol.. Go for it and post them pictures man. Worst that can happen is someone points out a flaw and offers advice on how to correct it, which in the end only improves your results and skillset.

 

[Club Billiards]

I agree with the other guys here. I don't think you did a bad job at all for your first time. You did better than many of the guys in the phone book. I might take you up on the "cold ones" offer some time though. You live anywhere near the Tilted Kilt up there? I've recently discovered that place and am a fan.

 

[Dopc]

I agree with the other guys here. I don't think you did a bad job at all for your first time. You did better than many of the guys in the phone book. I might take you up on the "cold ones" offer some time though. You live anywhere near the Tilted Kilt up there? I've recently discovered that place and am a fan.

Josh.
Thanks for the compliment as well. Let me guess, you already made a "Table Hack" (inside joke, see above) sign and will follow me home, only to stick it in my yard and post pictures here huh, yeah, I thought so.....ROFL... Just kidding.
I'm not far away from there at all. I've never been in the place, but looked it up online and from the pictures it looks like a real nice place. If our schedules work out (meaning doesn't conflict with family scheduling), I'd be more than happy to buy you a few and shoot the breeze for a while. I'm an easy going, laid back kind of person and as you can tell, not short on conversation. I would love to hear about some of the stuff you've run up against in the trade. I have a few to share as well, not about tables but just about the whacked out stuff while being on the job in client enviroments. I think it would be a good time, keep me posted.

Dopc.

 

[Club Billiards]

Josh.
Thanks for the compliment as well. Let me guess, you already made a "Table Hack" (inside joke, see above) sign and will follow me home, only to stick it in my yard and post pictures here huh, yeah, I thought so.....ROFL... Just kidding.
I'm not far away from there at all. I've never been in the place, but looked it up online and from the pictures it looks like a real nice place. If our schedules work out (meaning doesn't conflict with family scheduling), I'd be more than happy to buy you a few and shoot the breeze for a while. I'm an easy going, laid back kind of person and as you can tell, not short on conversation. I would love to hear about some of the stuff you've run up against in the trade. I have a few to share as well, not about tables but just about the whacked out stuff while being on the job in client enviroments. I think it would be a good time, keep me posted.

Dopc.

Sounds good! I'm looking forward to it. Once I get back from the VNEA tournament in Vegas this week, I'll be starting work in Players Family Billiards in Whitehall, so I'll be somewhat in the area. I'll get in touch with you and we'll have to meet up.

 

[Dopc]

Ahhh yes...Players family Billiards on Main st. in Whitehall. I've spent much of my life there in the early to mid 90's...lol..... A lot of high quality players out of there too. I havent been in there in over 12 years though so no idea what the place is like today, can't imagine much different other than maybe some updates. Just might have to go out and see the old place for myself and bang a few around. If you happen to be there, I promise not to say anything to you or distract you while on the job, that would'nt be cool of me at all.
I'm also not apposed to meeting on that side of town or the Easton area or whatever, I'm flexable. Good luck at VNEA in Vegas. Wasn't aware you were an avid player as well....hmmm... :grin-devilish:

dopc.

 

[Club Billiards]

Ahhh yes...Players family Billiards on Main st. in Whitehall. I've spent much of my life there in the early to mid 90's...lol..... A lot of high quality players out of there too. I havent been in there in over 12 years though so no idea what the place is like today, can't imagine much different other than maybe some updates. Just might have to go out and see the old place for myself and bang a few around. If you happen to be there, I promise not to say anything to you or distract you while on the job, that would'nt be cool of me at all.
I'm also not apposed to meeting on that side of town or the Easton area or whatever, I'm flexable. Good luck at VNEA in Vegas. Wasn't aware you were an avid player as well....hmmm... :grin-devilish:

dopc.

Avid is a stretch. I'm a league banger. Players is under new ownership, and he's definitely putting a lot into the place. You should come up. I'll try to let you know when I get out there to do some work.

 

[Dopc]

Two month report on the job.

Howdy all.
Well it's been nearly two months since I've done all the work to the table. Every person who has been on the table both before and after the work, have been nothing but pleased/impressed with the tables playability myself included. However I am a picky person so after all this time, I can only come up with one complaint and I may do the entire job over again to fix this one single minor issue I will mention shortly. Being I have enough 3m-10 left over to do 3-4 more cushion rubber jobs, that cost is already covered. The pro-form k-66 is only $70 and i must say, plays perfectly acceptable to anything else I've played on including the expensive stuff, just my opinion though... Also the cost of new thinner facings so another $20 or so....

So what was the one big complaint I (and only I) have you ask. I read it numerous times here and didn't listen, I was told not to use it, and didn't listen, now I realize I'm a stubborn individual and wished I had listen...lol :banghead::withstupid:
The big issue is the thick facings I used, 1/4" 60 durometer neoprene facings. They are fine in every way except on the *SUPER* slow rollers that hit the facings can & will dud to a dead stop. They are fine for every other shot, they accept balls fired down the rail fine, they except pocket speed balls just fine as well. They are fine in every aspect but those mega slow rollers that might not possibly have enough steam to fall off the slate in the pocket anyways, but sometimes do fall (yeah, those mega slow rolls).

Now for the second issue with the thick facings have nothing to do with pocketing at all. This issue relates to the point of the rail cushions outside the pocket. If you're playing a bank that is close to the pocket point, you get a different rail response due the ball bouncing off the facing material verse the cushion material. The next shot that is effected are the ones most people never play, but I do and it has become hit and miss so to speak due to the material difference. That shot is the banking/kicking off the point shot. I have always had this little trick up my sleeve and spent countless hours trying to better it. I use it in play and only used as a last resort with low percentage results (much like a jump shot), but has saved my hide many of times.

So to summarize this two month report, I'm still very pleased with the job over all. It's been an amazing transformation to do & see happen to this table. friends tell me I'd be foolish to mess with it any longer as the table plays great now. But, I'm anal and it irritates me and to just replace the facings with thinner ones, puts me right back in bucket pocket territory and I'm not hip on that.
So the idea now is to do the job over again and use some 1/4'-3/8' ply and extend the sub-rails the proper way to close up the pockets. they are currently at 4.5" and I think I could even be happy at 4" but no more than 4.25" inch pockets. As for the table only being 44x88", I think there should be some challenge to the table for it being such a small home table.

So there you have it. I'm sure you could call this R&D work and I had to experience it first hand (damn, I should have listen to those who already did the R&D and was trying to tell me:banghead: ).

lastly, while doing this whole job over again (not sure when but in the future at some point). The rails were to low and needed raised, I went the easy route and used thick metal washers between the sub-rails and slate on the rail bolts. I think I may take this time to actually properly build up the bottom of the sub-rails to achieve the correct cushion point height. May use some material like a masonite, or possibly some laminate or who knows (cross that bridge when I get there). It will be all about what gets me the thickness needed, but I will say the washers are working fine so far, but I would like to see the rails resting firmly on the slate and taking some of the stress of those rail bolts. So that's pretty much all I have to report other than I put down some cherry plank flooring, but that is outside the scope of this post. but I will place a picture of the room somewhat completed to date. Thank you to all who contributed the information on this forum for all to learn from.

Dopc.

 

[ROB.M]

Howdy all.
Well it's been nearly two months since I've done all the work to the table. Every person who has been on the table both before and after the work, have been nothing but pleased/impressed with the tables playability myself included. However I am a picky person so after all this time, I can only come up with one complaint and I may do the entire job over again to fix this one single minor issue I will mention shortly. Being I have enough 3m-10 left over to do 3-4 more cushion rubber jobs, that cost is already covered. The pro-form k-66 is only $70 and i must say, plays perfectly acceptable to anything else I've played on including the expensive stuff, just my opinion though... Also the cost of new thinner facings so another $20 or so....

So what was the one big complaint I (and only I) have you ask. I read it numerous times here and didn't listen, I was told not to use it, and didn't listen, now I realize I'm a stubborn individual and wished I had listen...lol :banghead::withstupid:
The big issue is the thick facings I used, 1/4" 60 durometer neoprene facings. They are fine in every way except on the *SUPER* slow rollers that hit the facings can & will dud to a dead stop. They are fine for every other shot, they accept balls fired down the rail fine, they except pocket speed balls just fine as well. They are fine in every aspect but those mega slow rollers that might not possibly have enough steam to fall off the slate in the pocket anyways, but sometimes do fall (yeah, those mega slow rolls).

Now for the second issue with the thick facings have nothing to do with pocketing at all. This issue relates to the point of the rail cushions outside the pocket. If you're playing a bank that is close to the pocket point, you get a different rail response due the ball bouncing off the facing material verse the cushion material. The next shot that is effected are the ones most people never play, but I do and it has become hit and miss so to speak due to the material difference. That shot is the banking/kicking off the point shot. I have always had this little trick up my sleeve and spent countless hours trying to better it. I use it in play and only used as a last resort with low percentage results (much like a jump shot), but has saved my hide many of times.

So to summarize this two month report, I'm still very pleased with the job over all. It's been an amazing transformation to do & see happen to this table. friends tell me I'd be foolish to mess with it any longer as the table plays great now. But, I'm anal and it irritates me and to just replace the facings with thinner ones, puts me right back in bucket pocket territory and I'm not hip on that.
So the idea now is to do the job over again and use some 1/4'-3/8' ply and extend the sub-rails the proper way to close up the pockets. they are currently at 4.5" and I think I could even be happy at 4" but no more than 4.25" inch pockets. As for the table only being 44x88", I think there should be some challenge to the table for it being such a small home table.

So there you have it. I'm sure you could call this R&D work and I had to experience it first hand (damn, I should have listen to those who already did the R&D and was trying to tell me:banghead: ).

lastly, while doing this whole job over again (not sure when but in the future at some point). The rails were to low and needed raised, I went the easy route and used thick metal washers between the sub-rails and slate on the rail bolts. I think I may take this time to actually properly build up the bottom of the sub-rails to achieve the correct cushion point height. May use some material like a masonite, or possibly some laminate or who knows (cross that bridge when I get there). It will be all about what gets me the thickness needed, but I will say the washers are working fine so far, but I would like to see the rails resting firmly on the slate and taking some of the stress of those rail bolts. So that's pretty much all I have to report other than I put down some cherry plank flooring, but that is outside the scope of this post. but I will place a picture of the room somewhat completed to date. Thank you to all who contributed the information on this forum for all to learn from.

Dopc.

http://i.imgur.com/O9GHt5B.jpg[/




If you raise or lower the rail height " with washers" without the bevel "where the cushion attach " of the subrail being changed you will have inconsistencies in the tables play.
1-3/8th noise height on the K-66 is ok.
What's the thickness of your rails now?
What's the noise height of the cushion now?
A accurate measuring device is highly suggested, pick up a quality combniation square at a local hardware store if you don't already own one to get a good reading. But.... Always keep this in mind-the cushion is only installed by the tolerances you create while hand installing the cushion in place.
Or' just relax and accept it that your happy with your table the way it is.
I've found to create more problems while trying to fix other problems in which total frustration sets in, then you realized you should of started fresh from day 1.

Rob.M

 

[Dopc]

Hi Rob, sorry it took so long to reply. I hadn't noticed your response until now. The question I have for you really requires a diagram, I just don't have time to do it at the moment, so bear with me on this question.

These are fictitious numbers and just to keep things simple for the sake of this question.

Lets assume the subrail bevel angle is 30 degrees, with a nose height of 1 24/64" bolted to the slate.
Now, lets elevate that entire rail so the new nose height is 1 34/64" without any rotation of the rail (zero rotation on the rail axes, raising the rail equally, both the back/skirt side of the rail and the cushion nose side of the rail all equally). Would that not mean that the bevel angle of the subrail should still be at 30 degrees? I believe it would be as the only way to alter that 30 degree angle would be to also rotate the rail on its axes as described before. Meaning if you raised the back/skirt side of the rail, but not the nose height side, then I can see where that 30 degree angle has been altered to say 35 degrees (exaggeration for the sake of conversation & simplicity). I also would think if you did the opposite, raise the cushion nose side of the rail without raising the back/skirt side of the rail, you would now have altered that 30 degree bevel to 25 degrees.( again, exaggerating for simplicity sake). I sure hope you could follow me on that description, I wrote it and I'm not sure it makes total sense. If not I'll break out some CAD software and draw it up at a later time. I think my logic is sound, but I'm technically insane.....:thumbup:

I had planned to replace my cushions yet again as posted earlier and extend the sub-rails properly. I have since decided to hold off for a while on that, as I have traveled around playing in various local tournaments on both 9' GC's and 9' Diamonds. The minor issues I was gripping about with my 1/4" facings have some merit, but are not as drastic as I had previously thought.
Comparing my tables playability to the playability of all the local tables in my region, my setup plays very consistent to everything else around here. On the next cloth replacement, I will complete the upgrades described earlier.
The issues with my slightly elevated rails, to me is a non-issue, they bank and take English extremely comparable to every table I've played on locally. It may be possible that all the tables in my area are setup wrong, if so then why should mine be any different. I'm happy with it, that's all that matters as you said earlier.

Thank you for your time, and educating a dumb hillbilly such as myself. I truly do appreciate and respect everyones knowledge here. I also suck at putting my thoughts into the written word. If I come across as aggressive or argumentative, that is not my intention and just a reflection of my poor writing skills. I look forward to your reply and anyone else who wishes to join in this conversation.

Dopc.

 

[fastone371]

Great job Dopc. On another subject, what kind of billiard ball do you have pictured here? (I was very careful as to how I worded that as you can see)

 

[Dopc]

Great job Dopc. On another subject, what kind of billiard ball do you have pictured here? (I was very careful as to how I worded that as you can see)

The answer you seek was already before your eyes......Hint: Check out my signature.:slap:

They are Aramith Tournament Pro-Cup, a resin mix Aramith calls Duramith. I'm in love with the balls (carefully worded I might add). I will say this about them though, I'm an extreme english throw player (not a good thing, just how I've always played), and these balls throw like crazy and I love it.

The problem for me is, one of the places I play tournaments at, uses the regular Aramith, either Premier or Premium grade balls. They are good balls, it's just that they do not throw nearly as much as this set does and it takes some fine adjustments for me in contact points due to less throw.

This could be minimized by me if I would ease of my crazy english/spin and use more center ball, but thats not my thang, so it takes me about 5-10 minutes of banging balls around to adjust my contact points and then I'm golden for the night.

I could drive a billiard instructor to suicide if they had to coach me. I'm just to set in my ways to change. The cost of using to much english/spin has bit me in the butt from time to time, but over all has saved me 10,000 times over the amount it has cost me.

Dopc.

EDIT: Yippee... my 100 post mark has been obtained, next milestone is 1,000....