Rules questions (3)help requested.

[call shot]

1. If a player scratches on the last red, does the first colour become an elected red ie/ the incoming player could technically play the yellow 3 times in a row?
2) If a player scratches on the last black and it leaves the game at 0-0 and the black ball is left dogging the hole, does the incoming player have a shot from the D or is the black respotted and players lag or draw lot to start with cue ball in D?
3) If only colours are left and a player choses an elected ball say brown for blue and pots it, is the brown respotted?

I have been unable to find answers that I am clear on to these questions. I am sure there are rules covering them but I seem to miss them when I look. Thank you very much for your help. Even if you steer me towards the correct rules sections it would help.

 

[Scaramouche]

1. If a player scratches on the last red, does the first colour become an elected red ie/ the incoming player could technically play the yellow 3 times in a row?

No

2) If a player scratches on the last black and it leaves the game at 0-0 and the black ball is left dogging the hole, does the incoming player have a shot from the D or is the black respotted and players lag or draw lot to start with cue ball in D?


Points are accumulated by each player, either by potting balls, or by opponent incurring penalties.
Score would never be 0 - 0 except before the first ball was sunk or penalty incurred.
If player scratched on the black, his opponent would score 7.

If only the black ball remains after a scratch:
The cue ball is shot from the D.
The incoming player has the option of shooting the shot or turning it back to his opponent.

If the final black is potted, resulting in a tie, the black is respotted. A coin is tossed, the winner has the option of taking the shot from the D or putting his opponent in

3) If only colours are left and a player choses an elected ball say brown for blue and pots it, is the brown respotted?

Trick Question
If only the colours are left, they are shot in order: yellow green brown blue pink black. So you would never be shooting yellow green brown in lieu of the blue, only the pink or black. The ball potted in lieu of the blue would be respotted

I have been unable to find answers that I am clear on to these questions. I am sure there are rules covering them but I seem to miss them when I look. Thank you very much for your help. Even if you steer me towards the correct rules sections it would help.

The Rules
http://www.worldsnooker.com/staticFiles/40/8d/0,,13165~167232,00.pdf

 

[acesinc1999]

About question 2)...

With all due respect Scaramouche, I think I must disagree with your interpretation about question 2).

Firstly, I believe that Call Shot's method of scoring is with beads instead of a scoreboard, i.e., rather than keeping the actual score, the players just keep the score differential on a wire, hence, if one player is ahead, say 57-50 with the black ball left, the wire only shows 7-0 (the differential). Then the penalty will reduce the differential to 0 (effectively 57-57, but the players don't know or care about this.....they just see the score differential as 0-0). This is not orthodox score keeping for snooker, but it is not unheard of. This method might be used if there is no proper scoreboard in house, but the beads on a string used for scoring straight pool are available.

Secondly (and more importantly), if I understand your interpretation correctly, you are stating that after the foul, the black remains where it is at (in the jaws) and the incoming player has the option of playing or passing. This is not correct.

According to Section 3. 4.,

"4. End of Frame, Game or Match
(a) When only the Black is left, the first score or foul ends the frame excepting only if the following conditions both apply:
(i) the scores are then equal, and
(ii) aggregate scores are not relevant.
(b) When both conditions in (a) above apply
(i) the Black is spotted,
(ii) the players draw lots for choice of playing
(iii) the next player plays from in-hand, and
(iv) the next score or foul ends the frame....."

So this means that when the foul occurs with only the black left on the table, the scores are then equal so that the black is removed from its current position in the jaws and spotted, and the players draw lots (which usually means a coin flip) EXACTLY the same as if the frame was tied by potting black. White ball of course is in hand from the "D" and the winner of the coin flip can choose to play or pass.

 

[Scaramouche]

With all due respect Scaramouche, I think I must disagree with your interpretation about question 2).

Firstly, I believe that Call Shot's method of scoring is with beads instead of a scoreboard, i.e., rather than keeping the actual score, the players just keep the score differential on a wire, hence, if one player is ahead, say 57-50 with the black ball left, the wire only shows 7-0 (the differential). Then the penalty will reduce the differential to 0 (effectively 57-57, but the players don't know or care about this.....they just see the score differential as 0-0). This is not orthodox score keeping for snooker, but it is not unheard of. This method might be used if there is no proper scoreboard in house, but the beads on a string used for scoring straight pool are available.

Secondly (and more importantly), if I understand your interpretation correctly, you are stating that after the foul, the black remains where it is at (in the jaws) and the incoming player has the option of playing or passing. This is not correct.

According to Section 3. 4.,

"4. End of Frame, Game or Match
(a) When only the Black is left, the first score or foul ends the frame excepting only if the following conditions both apply:
(i) the scores are then equal, and
(ii) aggregate scores are not relevant.
(b) When both conditions in (a) above apply
(i) the Black is spotted,
(ii) the players draw lots for choice of playing
(iii) the next player plays from in-hand, and
(iv) the next score or foul ends the frame....."

So this means that when the foul occurs with only the black left on the table, the scores are then equal so that the black is removed from its current position in the jaws and spotted, and the players draw lots (which usually means a coin flip) EXACTLY the same as if the frame was tied by potting black.

Personally, I have never encountered a room where snooker is played that didn't have proper scoreboards.

You may be correct in your interpretation of the OP venue.

My answer was based on the impossibility of the scenario - 0 - 0, and therefore the black was still in play.

 

[Slasher]

With all due respect Scaramouche, I think I must disagree with your interpretation about question 2).

Firstly, I believe that Call Shot's method of scoring is with beads instead of a scoreboard, i.e., rather than keeping the actual score, the players just keep the score differential on a wire, hence, if one player is ahead, say 57-50 with the black ball left, the wire only shows 7-0 (the differential). Then the penalty will reduce the differential to 0 (effectively 57-57, but the players don't know or care about this.....they just see the score differential as 0-0). This is not orthodox score keeping for snooker, but it is not unheard of. This method might be used if there is no proper scoreboard in house, but the beads on a string used for scoring straight pool are available.

Secondly (and more importantly), if I understand your interpretation correctly, you are stating that after the foul, the black remains where it is at (in the jaws) and the incoming player has the option of playing or passing. This is not correct.

According to Section 3. 4.,

"4. End of Frame, Game or Match
(a) When only the Black is left, the first score or foul ends the frame excepting only if the following conditions both apply:
(i) the scores are then equal, and
(ii) aggregate scores are not relevant.
(b) When both conditions in (a) above apply
(i) the Black is spotted,
(ii) the players draw lots for choice of playing
(iii) the next player plays from in-hand, and
(iv) the next score or foul ends the frame....."

So this means that when the foul occurs with only the black left on the table, the scores are then equal so that the black is removed from its current position in the jaws and spotted, and the players draw lots (which usually means a coin flip) EXACTLY the same as if the frame was tied by potting black.

makes sense now

 

[acesinc1999]

About the other questions....

For Call Shot:

Since you are looking for specific reference to the particular rule controlling each of these situations:

For number 1), your situation is not specifically defined but it is probably best summed up by referring to Section 3. 3. (f) :

"(f) For the first stroke of each turn, until all Reds are off the table, Red or a free ball nominated as a Red is the ball on, and the value of each Red and any free ball nominated as a Red, potted in the same stroke, is scored."

so that in your case, after the scratch, the incoming player steps up to the table, ALL REDS ARE OFF THE TABLE (note that I added the emphasis in the reference to the rule), therefore, red is NOT the ball on and yellow CANNOT be nominated as a free ball to substitute for a red. Obviously, then the yellow is now the ball on so when potted it will now stay in the pocket, but to reference the actual rule for this, it is the same rule as the following, Section 3. 3. (g) (iii) ....

For question three, Scaramouch is exactly correct in that you are describing an impossible situation. The rule to prove this comes shortly after the one above, Section 3. 3. (g) (iii):

"(g) (iii) The colours then become on in the ascending order of their value as per Section 3 Rule 1(a) and when next potted remain off the table, except as provided for in Rule 4 below, and the striker plays the next stroke at the next colour on."

With that said, your scenario is impossible, that is, the blue cannot possibly be the ball on, then the striker chooses the brown as the free ball (I assume you mean "free ball" when you use the term "elected ball"). In such case, the striker MUST play for brown as the ball on, not the blue. As Scaramouch said, when only colours are remaining, a free ball must by necessity be a ball of higher value so it would be potted as a free ball and then re-spotted to be potted again later in its natural rotation.

 

[acesinc1999]

Clarification

So this means that when the foul occurs with only the black left on the table, the scores are then equal so that the black is removed from its current position in the jaws and spotted, and the players draw lots (which usually means a coin flip) EXACTLY the same as if the frame was tied by potting black. White ball of course is in hand from the "D" and the winner of the coin flip can choose to play or pass.

To clarify:

If the difference in scores is EXACTLY seven points with only the black ball remaining on the table, then EITHER the losing player POTS BLACK legally, or the winning player commits a foul of any kind (could be a scratch, could be failure to contact the object (like attempting a very thin cut shot and missing completely), could be a push stroke, ANY foul at all), then the scores are tied (differential of zero points). The black is spotted (whether it was potted or not), the white ball is in hand from the "D" (whether it went "in off" or not), and a coin is flipped with the winner of the coin flip having choice to play or pass the next shot.

From this point, the next score or foul (again, a foul of ANY kind, not just a scratch) ends the frame.

 

[call shot]

Thanks to everyone for their help. If I may concerning my third question. Supposedly only the colours remain and I scratched on the yellow but in so doing left my opponent snookered on the yellow. I assume then he could either have me shoot again or could he not then nominate or elect a free ball, ie/ anything higher than yellow as the yellow. If he could and sunk that higher ball for 2 points is it then respotted to become its actual numeric number and is the yellow still on or does the yellow get removed ? .Does the free nominated ball stay down? Sorry If I confuse anyone as I really appreciate your help.

 

[Scaramouche]

Thanks to everyone for their help. If I may concerning my third question. Supposedly only the colours remain and I scratched on the yellow but in so doing left my opponent snookered on the yellow. I assume then he could either have me shoot again or could he not then nominate or elect a free ball, ie/ anything higher than yellow as the yellow. If he could and sunk that higher ball for 2 points is it then respotted to become its actual numeric number and is the yellow still on or does the yellow get removed ? .Does the free nominated ball stay down? Sorry If I confuse anyone as I really appreciate your help.

The colour free ball potted would be respotted.
In snooker, reds off the table, either by being potted or leaving the playing surface, NEVER return to the table.
The colours ALWAYS do until they are potted in order.

 

[acesinc1999]

Thanks to everyone for their help. If I may concerning my third question. Supposedly only the colours remain and I scratched on the yellow but in so doing left my opponent snookered on the yellow. I assume then he could either have me shoot again or could he not then nominate or elect a free ball, ie/ anything higher than yellow as the yellow. If he could and sunk that higher ball for 2 points is it then respotted to become its actual numeric number and is the yellow still on or does the yellow get removed ? .Does the free nominated ball stay down? Sorry If I confuse anyone as I really appreciate your help.

You seem to be making this circumstance more complicated than it actually needs to be. I will attempt to respond in general terms so that you may apply the same principles in any similar situation...

When a frame of snooker reaches the point at which all of the reds have been removed from the table, that stage is what I refer to as the "end game". During the end game, whenever the striker steps to the table, the ball on is, by definition, the lowest point value ball currently on the table. IF THE OUTGOING STRIKER HAS COMMITTED ANY FOUL, then the incoming player has, or may have, a number of options. Firstly, the incoming striker ALWAYS has the option of putting the offending player back in to take the stroke at hand requiring him to play at the ball on. (In your hypothetical, that would be YELLOW--the offending player being put back in NEVER has the free ball option, he MUST play for the ball on.) Secondly, IF THE OUTGOING STRIKER HAS COMMITTED ANY FOUL and has left the table in such state that the incoming striker is left SNOOKERED on the ball on, then the incoming striker will also have the option of nominating and playing at a free ball in lieu of the current ball on. The free ball will temporarily take the value of the current ball on (in your case, 2 points). If potted, the free ball is spotted and the striker then MUST play at the ball on. (Presumably, in your hypothetical, the striker can nominate any other color for the free ball, pot it, spot it, then play at yellow.) However, it is possible to nominate a free ball, strike it, and then pot the original ball on in a legal stroke. New paragraph to explain.....

Let's say your opponent pots the last red and scratches, foul stroke, there are no longer any reds on the table. Yellow is the ball on. You have ball in hand in the "D". Let's say the brown/yellow are lined up for a perfect plant into the yellow pocket, with yellow closest to the pocket so that yellow is snookered for the incoming player from anywhere within the "D". The incoming striker can then nominate brown as free ball, strike brown, and pot the yellow with the plant. Legal stroke, 2 points and now the green (lowest value ball) is the ball on. All of that sounds complex, but the principle is always the same and the principle is quite simple....when the striker steps to the table, the lowest value ball on the table is the ball on; if a free ball is played and potted, it is re-spotted, and the next ball on will be...guess what....the lowest value ball on the table.

Now, there is another simple principle to bear in mind. When you reach the end game, every ball on MUST be potted with a LEGAL STROKE, otherwise, it will be returned to the table on its spot. For instance, let's say the ball on is yellow. You strike yellow and pot it, but in the same stroke, the cue ball also strikes and pots blue. Foul stroke. The yellow was potted, but it was not potted on a LEGAL stroke so it must be returned to the table on its spot (as well as the blue, of course). Same principle applies for instance, if a ball jumps off the table during the END GAME--foul stroke and the ball is returned to its spot. (This is not the case when reds are on the table. If a red jumps off the table, it is a foul stroke, but the red remains off the table as there is no defined spot to put it on.) In the brown/yellow plant scenario above, even though brown was nominated as free ball, yellow is STILL considered to be a ball on (it is the lowest value ball on the table at the beginning of the stroke) so that, when potted, yellow was the ball on and it was potted on a legal stroke so that it remains in the pocket. (Interesting but rather tricky side note--in the free ball brown/yellow plant scenario above, if BOTH yellow and brown happen to fall into a pocket, it is a LEGAL STROKE but the striker is ONLY credited the score of the original ball on. The free ball is re-spotted with no additional points added and the striker continues the break.)

... is the yellow still on or does the yellow get removed ? .Does the free nominated ball stay down?...

During the end game, no ball can simply be "removed"; it must be potted on a legal stroke. You should clearly understand now that the potted free ball which temporarily took the value of the ball on will be returned to its spot and will become the ball on when it becomes the lowest value ball remaining on the table.

TO SUMMARIZE: There are really only two simple principles that are detailed above:
1) During the end game, the LOWEST VALUE BALL on the table is always considered to be the BALL ON, whether there is a free ball situation or not.
2) During the end game, the BALL ON MUST ALWAYS BE POTTED ON A LEGAL STROKE. Any ball which is either a potted free ball or which is potted or forced off the table during the course of a foul stroke is returned to its spot.

 

[call shot]

Thank you so much Sir. Your willingness to take the time to explain these matters is very much appreciated. I hope your next frame is the "best ever"!. Take care.