Should a pro player call a foul on themselves?

[Cdryden]

This is really a question for the pro players out there.

It's not really for us.

We don't have to pay our bills with short money earned by playing pool.

We've all seen many of our pool champions foul without their opponent seeing the foul and they haven't called the foul on themselves, when they clearly knew they fouled. Personally, I don't think they should be vilified for not calling a foul on themselves, except for the following:

If the answer is yes, then it should clearly be part of the rules; that each player is indeed required to call a foul on themselves.

If the answer is no, then I think the rules should clearly state that each player is not required to call a foul on themselves.

What do you think about the "If yes"/If no" then statements?

JoeyA

Great question Joey!
I have made it a practice to always be upfront and honest about any fouls I have made during tournaments or league, and as such I have a good reputation for being a honest player. The benefit of that is when something is iffy and I say it's a good hit or whatever I don't get any argument.
But for a pro it's not exactly the same thing, They are at work when they are playing. It's their job to win. I'm not saying that they should be overtly dubious but I also don't think they should be required to tell on themselves.
A ref or the other player should initiate the question about whether or not a foul was committed, after that I think the player in question should be honest in his/her answer.

But when you're playing me you aint got to worry, I'll call a foul on myself even if you were in the can when it happened. There is no glory in a cheated win.

 

[John Novak]

When Pros Cheat

I believe it was the 2000 DCC 9 ball Keith Mcready had the 9 on the side rail above the side pocket and the cue ball below the side pocket on the same rail. He walked over and tried to pull in the point of the pocket, not once but twice. A blatant foul....doesnt get any lower than that....and still missed pocketing the 9 ball. Nothing sweeter than having a cheater get burned when they try to get over on someone. this was captured on the AccuStats highlite vol3 dvd


Bottom line is EVERYONE should call a foul on themselves...... Its the right thing to do. Unless youre in training to be a low life scum bag

 

[Cdryden]

I believe it was the 2000 DCC 9 ball Keith Mcready had the 9 on the side rail above the side pocket and the cue ball below the side pocket on the same rail. He walked over and tried to pull in the point of the pocket, not once but twice. A blatant foul....doesnt get any lower than that....and still missed pocketing the 9 ball. Nothing sweeter than having a cheater get burned when they try to get over on someone. this was captured on the AccuStats highlite vol3 dvd


Bottom line is EVERYONE should call a foul on themselves...... Its the right thing to do. Unless youre in training to be a low life scum bag

Really? No offense but if you think that is the worst thing that has happened in a tournament I'm guessing you haven't been to many or the ones you have gone to have a field of angels playing!
I'm not defending his actions, I'm just saying I have seen a lot worse on a regular basis. And if you're trying to passively say that Keith is a low life scum bag I would have to question your motives.

 

[John Novak]

Really? No offense but if you think that is the worst thing that has happened in a tournament I'm guessing you haven't been to many or the ones you have gone to have a field of angels playing!
I'm not defending his actions, I'm just saying I have seen a lot worse on a regular basis. And if you're trying to passively say that Keith is a low life scum bag I would have to question your motives.

What makes this worse is the fact that it was done on the TV table. When players do stuff like this on the tv tables just shows the fact that they forget their surroundings, and resort to their true motives.........Cheat till you get caught....... Pros are held to a higher standards....When they resort to low life moves as such, what do you expect non pro players to resort to.They should lead by example.....If you go watch this match you will hear Danny D and Billy I comment on this foul

A blatant foul....doesnt get any lower than that.

 

[CreeDo]

Players desperate to support their family and their needs will PLAY BY THE RULES and if the rules don't state that the shooter must call all fouls when a referee is not present, there will continue to be "lapses" in judgment

The idea that you can keep with the "letter of the law" by denying the opponent
his BIH is incorrect. The rules are absolutely explicit: When a foul happens,
you stop shooting and he gets ball in hand.

2.7 Standard Fouls
If the shooter commits a standard foul, play passes to his opponent.
The cue ball is in hand, and the incoming player may place it anywhere on the playing surface.

Ignoring this explicitly written rule and continuing to shoot is not "playing by the rules"
by any logical definition. We can put aside moral outrage, desperation, income level etc.
and just parse the plain english in the rulebook. It's crystal clear.

Still, all that being said, maybe you're right. There's a surprising number of people
willing to set aside both morals and logic on this topic. If padding the rulebook with one more line
is what it takes to remove their last excuse for dishonest behavior, let's go ahead and add that line.

 

[John Novak]

The idea that you can keep with the "letter of the law" by denying the opponent
his BIH is incorrect. The rules are absolutely explicit: When a foul happens,
you stop shooting and he gets ball in hand.

2.7 Standard Fouls
If the shooter commits a standard foul, play passes to his opponent.
The cue ball is in hand, and the incoming player may place it anywhere on the playing surface.

Ignoring this explicitly written rule and continuing to shoot is not "playing by the rules"
by any logical definition. We can put aside moral outrage, desperation, income level etc.
and just parse the plain english in the rulebook. It's crystal clear.

Still, all that being said, maybe you're right. There's a surprising number of people
willing to set aside both morals and logic on this topic. If padding the rulebook with one more line
is what it takes to remove their last excuse for dishonest behavior, let's go ahead and add that line.

Well said.......Players that insist on playing with the attitude of "I will continue to cheat until caught" are people that I dont want to play, period.....And they wonder why pool is dying by the second:angry:

 

[ScottK]

Without reading the entire post. YES. I have even overruled a bad call by a referree before. If you feel you fouled then you should call it on yourself regardless of the situ.

You seriously couldn't bother to read that whole post before you responded?

 

[btown]

Lets just be hypothetical and say "what if" Dennis Orcollo and Rob Melrose were gambling. Would you expect them to call falls on themselves? And would it be wrong if they didn't? :grin-square:

 

[ideologist]

The problem here is that, in a gentlemen's game, any gentleman worth his salt calls his own fouls, and expects his opponent will call all of his.

Lots of people aren't gentlemen and don't act as such. It's hard to swallow calling your own fouls while your opponent cheats away.

['Gentlemen' is gender-neutral for the sake of simplicity here]

 

[SakuJack]

I have never heard or saw a basketball, football, baseball, boxer, tennis player calling a foul on themselves. That's my answer. If there is money involved.......Johnnyt

I've seen plenty of snooker players do it.

 

[JesseBfan]

I was waiting on this

You seriously couldn't bother to read that whole post before you responded?

Haha I wanted to be the first!

 

[alstl]

My first inclination is to say yes but in other sports players do not correct the official if he makes a mistake and the player knows it is a bad call. For example if a baseball player misses a tag or traps a fly ball and the umpire gets it wrong the players doesn't correct the umpire.

Same with a receiver catching a ball in football.

In leagues I have called fouls on myself but in a pro tournament with a referee present that's a different deal.

 

[btown]

Professional pool players in "PRO" tournaments like Ultimate 10-ball, Big Foot Challenge ect.. should most definitely call a foul.

Backroom gamblers however is a different story.

Lets just say you are being staked for 5k and its hill hill and you foul but its not noticed.

If you call that foul on yourself and cost your backer 5k + 2.5k that he would have won you might as well hang up the jersey because your big action days are over!

 

[Put_upor_shutup]

If I foul I will say I fouled..However I cant hold it against another person for not calling.It is pretty rotten to do..but hey u dont shoot the shot for your opponent so why call fouls for him...

 

[Cdryden]

My first inclination is to say yes but in other sports players do not correct the official if he makes a mistake and the player knows it is a bad call. For example if a baseball player misses a tag or traps a fly ball and the umpire gets it wrong the players doesn't correct the umpire.

Same with a receiver catching a ball in football.

In leagues I have called fouls on myself but in a pro tournament with a referee present that's a different deal.

Good point, I can't ever remember a pro football player saying "wait a minute guy's, I was off-sides....my bad" or a basketball player tell the ref that he just double dribbled. Or a baseball player at bat say "I beg to differ ump, I believe that was a strike".

Does this qualify them as lowlifes as well?

 

[genomachino]

I think the answer should be yes.

it would help bring the integrity to the game of pool that golf has.

All of us players can usually tell when the hit is bad. but sometimes it is very difficult to tell. That is why a ref is needed.

I remember a shot i took gambling with another player about 6 months ago. The opponent said, I think that was a bad hit. I said I'm not sure. The opponent just gave me the benefit of the doubt.

A player that was watching told me later that it was obvious it was a bad hit.

it wasn't a big factor in the race . I went over to the player and appoligized for the incident.

Sometimes shooting the shot you really can't tell.

Great thread here. Something to really think about..........

 

[1on1pooltournys]

Sometimes these arguments come down to one guy is 100% sure he is right, and the other guy is also 100% sure he is right.

This is when you flip a coin. :thumbup:

 

[Autist]

Yes, and it should be in the rules.

I will always call fouls on myself unless the opponent has proven himself to be a cheater who intentionally makes fouls and denies them.

I am a friendly, nice and honest and fair-minded lad, but only with those who are decent.

 

[driven]

I agree there should be a rule. I have never not called a foul on myself in the little tournaments I have played.
balance that with this little tidbit.
On more than one occasion when confronted with a difficult situation, 9 ball matches, after carefully lining up an impossible shot say on the 5 ball for quite a while, and Making it!, opponent suddenly calls foul, you shot the wrong ball 4 ball is still on the table. What do you do then? He knew you were shooting the wrong ball, no question there.
I look the guy in the eyes and say some people do and some don't. He gets to live with himself and collect my 5 dollars.
whatever
steven

 

[JoeyA]

The idea that you can keep with the "letter of the law" by denying the opponent
his BIH is incorrect. The rules are absolutely explicit: When a foul happens,
you stop shooting and he gets ball in hand.

2.7 Standard Fouls
If the shooter commits a standard foul, play passes to his opponent.
The cue ball is in hand, and the incoming player may place it anywhere on the playing surface.

Ignoring this explicitly written rule and continuing to shoot is not "playing by the rules"
by any logical definition. We can put aside moral outrage, desperation, income level etc.
and just parse the plain english in the rulebook. It's crystal clear.

Still, all that being said, maybe you're right. There's a surprising number of people
willing to set aside both morals and logic on this topic. If padding the rulebook with one more line
is what it takes to remove their last excuse for dishonest behavior, let's go ahead and add that line.

You finally knuckled under. :wink: