So is there footage of the famous 1990's Challenge of Champions dumping scandal?

[PINKLADY]

Thanks for that. I believe i posted at his request his thank you in one on the Mosconi Buddy hater threads. But then again i'm not his PR man. Just a friend. I wouldn't know how to relate your message to him. I don't know who you are except for your screen name. If you would like to talk to him personally PM me. He's quite receptive to phone calls.


Lots of Buddy hater threads these days, but hey lets kick him while he's down. I personally don't know what happened. I don't think anybody does. And i don't believe in hearsay. What i do wonder is this. With all the hustling books, movies and people in the pool world that idolize pool hustlers. If this did happen why wouldn't they want to take credit for one of the biggest hustles of all time?

I do think its stupid to accuse people publicly of felony criminal acts without sworn statements of one or more of the perpetrators. Especially when you make part of your living working with these individuals.

Besides Buddy, these are the other players in the tournament being accused. Mike Sigel, Nick Varner, Jim Rempe, Allen Hopkins, David Howard, Kim Davenport & Mike LeBron.

i know. i have no issue with you, and i thank you for your response(s). i agree with EVERYthing that you said! i understand about his wife, his health, his choices, & i respect said. and i apologize for mistaking your ability to relay info to Buddy; let's take you out of the equation?

my dog-in-this fight, on behalf of AZB donators, is what i eluded to; current. please PM me his contact #, and i'll leave him a very nice reminder, when he can get to it under current circumstances.

thanks.

 

[CJ Wiley]

I'd say there was at least $3,000,000 added to professional tournaments

At Large would you be so kind as to post the number of pro tournaments that were held in casinos after the 91 COC. And of those how many had money added by the casino?

I am tired of people claiming that this turned off casinos to pool tournaments.



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We must have had 10 tournaments at the Bicycle Club Casino, and even more at the Riviera (we played in the Penthouse back then).....not to mention, the Mirage did the 'Challenge of Champions' when I played (in 94, and a Casino was involved every year as far as I know)......the Sands Regency hosted 20+ tournaments and there ESPN was putting in over a $500,000 a year when I was the Director of Operations of the Professional Cue Sports Association ( I know they're not a Casino, but they were filming the 91 Challenge of Champions).

I'd say there was at least $3,000,000 added to professional tournaments in the next 8 years by Casinos, and other sponsors like Camel, APA, BCA, etc.

 

[AtLarge]

At Large would you be so kind as to post the number of pro tournaments that were held in casinos after the 91 COC. And of those how many had money added by the casino?

I am tired of people claiming that this turned off casinos to pool tournaments.



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er, ... no. I don't think I want to spend the next couple of weeks pouring through 23 years worth of pool magazines to identify any "pro" tournaments held in casinos and whether the casino added money (and how much).

But I doubt that you really expect a researched answer to your question(s).

I can give you one easy example, though. The Joss Tour has held 21 events at the Turning Stone Casino over the last 14 years, and I think the casino has added money to all of them.

 

[JB Cases]

er, ... no. I don't think I want to spend the next couple of weeks pouring through 23 years worth of pool magazines to identify any "pro" tournaments held in casinos and whether the casino added money (and how much).

But I doubt that you really expect a researched answer to your question(s).

I can give you one easy example, though. The Joss Tour has held 21 events at the Turning Stone Casino over the last 14 years, and I think the casino has added money to all of them.

Well, I just thought maybe you had a database handy since you seem to always have the right stats on everything

My world is being shattered, first accusations that my pool heroes of the 80s dumped and now At Large doesn't have the stats pronto.......aaaaarghh

You're right the question is far more rhetorical though as we all know that the vast majority of professional tournaments in the past 23 years, along with ALL the Challenge of Champion events, have been held at casinos with the Casino listed as a title sponsor. And if I am not mistaken most of them kicked in added money.

However it is a surety that not even this point will be conceded by those who have already tried and convicted the COC7 and made them the scape goat for all that they think is wrong with pool.

 

[HelloBaby-]

No they were just doing then what you are doing now. LOL

Originally Posted By, C.J.:

" No billiard magazines or press ever made any accusations, so if there was a conspiracy"
everyone in the pool world/press was involved in the so called cover up."

Your logic definitely not the teacher

Here is the teacher

 

[TheRanger]

Thanks for that. I believe i posted at his request his thank you in one on the Mosconi Buddy hater threads. But then again i'm not his PR man. Just a friend. I wouldn't know how to relate your message to him. I don't know who you are except for your screen name. If you would like to talk to him personally PM me. He's quite receptive to phone calls.


Lots of Buddy hater threads these days, but hey lets kick him while he's down. I personally don't know what happened. I don't think anybody does. And i don't believe in hearsay. What i do wonder is this. With all the hustling books, movies and people in the pool world that idolize pool hustlers. If this did happen why wouldn't they want to take credit for one of the biggest hustles of all time?
I do think its stupid to accuse people publicly of felony criminal acts without sworn statements of one or more of the perpetrators. Especially when you make part of your living working with these individuals.

Besides Buddy, these are the other players in the tournament being accused. Mike Sigel, Nick Varner, Jim Rempe, Allen Hopkins, David Howard, Kim Davenport & Mike LeBron.

I agree with you to a certain extent. But with it being caught on camera, this is a kin to a kid in a sweet shop caught on CCTV pocketing a candy bar. Did he put it in his pocket by accident because he wasn't thinking straight - or did he want something for nothing?

 

[TheRanger]

CJ - you must concede that as an outsider looking in - the manner in which he missed 8 ball and then the straight 8-9 plant in the last frame is highly suspicious?

I would love to get a body language expert to have a look at the footage to see what he thinks of both guys behavior around the table during the last couple of frames.

I am sure 95% of you guys acted with integrity during your careers, but I think it would be fair to say that in any profession, you will always have a few trying to steal fro personal gain at the expense of the greater good. Pool would be no different.

 

[8pack]

You can say what you want about him dogging shots ,so let's just give him that because of the pressure. Lol But what you can't dog is making the right decisions. 50k on the line and he plays some shots no different then a banger . A champion player never does what he did unless he was intentionally trying to give his opponent an opportunity .


Money is the teacher. Guaranteed money is better then know money.

I think the real pressure was on mike , he actually had to play good or the dump would of looked really obvious .

 

[punter]

I'm not trying to "re-write" history, but I was there in the meetings concerning this event and was a board member of the PBTA. Matt Braun, Allen Hopkins, Mike Sigel, Nick Varner, Pay Fleming, Sammy Jones, Jimmy Rempe, and Don Mackey were also there. No billiard magazines or press ever made any accusations, so if there was a "conspiracy" everyone in the pool world/press was involved in the so called cover up.

If you don't like my opinion by all means ignore it, but it is from personally experienced information, and I still can't say with authority anything other than what I know. I'd be surprised if anyone knows the whole truth, there's always three stories to every issue like this 1) The player's story 2) The onlookers story 3) The Truth.....never, and I do mean never are two of these the same.



I neither admit or deny any wrong doing, I simply don't know for sure.....and neither does anyone else, therefore everything is technically hearsay at this point in history.

OK, CJ, good enough, agree to disagree. It's not important enough to keep rehashing. Everyone can make up his or her minds.

 

[MahnaMahna]

At Large would you be so kind as to post the number of pro tournaments that were held in casinos after the 91 COC. And of those how many had money added by the casino?

I am tired of people claiming that this turned off casinos to pool tournaments.



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Can you direct me to which casino was accepting bets on those tournaments after the COC dump? CJ says there was one more after, but is that it?

So you are tired of people claiming something that no one is claiming?

 

[JB Cases]

Can you direct me to which casino was accepting bets on those tournaments after the COC dump? CJ says there was one more after, but is that it?

So you are tired of people claiming something that no one is claiming?

People claimed that the alleged dump caused pool to go down and burned the casinos from sponsoring pool. Pay attention if you want to participate.

As for betting Stan James in England and other bookies took bets on every match room world championships.

What casinos did or did not do regarding betting on pool is not known to me. But they didn't take bets before that COC either. You would need to ask the people responsible in all those casinos why they don't book bets on pool matches.



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[Nostroke]

http://www.onepocket.org/forum/showthread.php?t=6601

So, we can believe you, or we can believe Earl. Looking at track records, I'm going with Earl. Why don't you try asking him yourself? While you are at it, ask him about this past Mosconi Cup.

The very definition of hearsay cited as near conclusive proof-Nice

 

[CJ Wiley]

.pool doesn't always make perfect sense, that's for certain

You can come to the conclusion that every easy ball missed by a champion was done on purpose. I actually communicated this to my opponents for many years subconsciously, so maybe it's true.....maybe when we miss it's always on purpose at some level.

hmmmm, that could actually be true, I missed a couple of shots in my first match to lose last weekend that a drunken cheerleader could have made.....then won 11 matches in a row and played flawlessly....pool doesn't always make perfect sense, that's for certain 'The Game is the Teacher'

CJ - you must concede that as an outsider looking in - the manner in which he missed 8 ball and then the straight 8-9 plant in the last frame is highly suspicious?

I would love to get a body language expert to have a look at the footage to see what he thinks of both guys behavior around the table during the last couple of frames.

I am sure 95% of you guys acted with integrity during your careers, but I think it would be fair to say that in any profession, you will always have a few trying to steal fro personal gain at the expense of the greater good. Pool would be no different.

 

[ironman]

Isn't this one of those taboo subjects we're not supposed to talk about in the pool world? :wink:

It uld be best if it would just die and go away but It just won't.

 

[ironman]

I agree with you, that was over 20 years ago. Present day we are still waiting for players to be paid from this year's U.S. Open.

Exactly, yesterday oirtomorrow,,, choose one! Hell we are still feeling effects from the Hustler!!! Broken thumgs,,, give me a break!

 

[JB Cases]

And by the way, match fixing happens in Snooker as well. Stephen Lee just got a 12 year ban. Quinten Hann also had a ban and maintains his innocence. John Higgens was wrapped up in a scandal over being entrapped by a tabloid where he agreed on video to fix matches in the presence of fake Russian mobsters.

And guess what?

The betting on and booking bets on snooker continues without a problem.

If this was such a big deal then Matt Braun would have simply barred all the players involved from playing in his invitation event ever again. He could have found champions enough to produce the event.

I say that rumors have been morphed into indisputable fact. Well I don't think it's indisputable and am disputing it. My hedge is that I don't discount the possibility only the probability.

 

[itsfroze]

JB & CJ = Pretend Pretend = LOL

 

[KoolKat9Lives]

Every generation in pool has dictated different behavior.

It's now not as easy for the movers and shakers to pull the wool over the eyes. It'll likely take a few more years for the bigger stage. I believe in the evolution - as transparency is less avoidable.

 

[Poolshootindon]

As Well ?

And by the way, match fixing happens in Snooker as well. Stephen Lee just got a 12 year ban. Quinten Hann also had a ban and maintains his innocence. John Higgens was wrapped up in a scandal over being entrapped by a tabloid where he agreed on video to fix matches in the presence of fake Russian mobsters.

And guess what?

The betting on and booking bets on snooker continues without a problem.

If this was such a big deal then Matt Braun would have simply barred all the players involved from playing in his invitation event ever again. He could have found champions enough to produce the event.

I say that rumors have been morphed into indisputable fact. Well I don't think it's indisputable and am disputing it. My hedge is that I don't discount the possibility only the probability.

JB.. Does this mean you now think the dump was on?

Don

 

[JB Cases]

JB.. Does this mean you now think the dump was on?

Don

No, it means that I am tired of people acting like IF there was a dump that it ruined pool.

That is something that is trotted out every time this topic comes up. Without fail.

The snooker example shows that scandals happen and it doesn't make a dent.

Until someone confesses or Allen Hopkins tells me personally that there was a conspiracy to let Mike Lebron win I will choose to believe, based on the evidence so far that no dump occurred.

John Higgins was "outed" by News of The World, a tabloid, for agreeing to fix matches. They set him up in Russia to get him a meeting with guys purporting to be Russian gangsters who wanted him to shave points. He agreed to do it and then never had anything to do with them again and never fixed a match.

Still for weeks he was roundly condemned as if he had shaved the points. In reality he simply was in a situation where he felt threatened and wanted to say anything in order to get to safety. This all came out in the subsequent investigation.

But the damage was already done in the court of public opinion.

In the end Higgins was cleared but was fined and sanctioned for not reporting the meeting to Barry Hearn.

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My thought on the COC thing is that it happened in 1991. From what I see no mention of it was made online until a few years ago. How does a thing like this get not talked about on any of the forums like RSB, ASP or AZ Billiards from 97 to just a few years ago? I mean there was a good 14 years or so after the event that no one touched it.

Why not? After all every other piece of dirty laundry in the billiard world seems to be fair game for these forums.

Sure seems like someone somewhere would have talked in all those years. If not then maybe we should have the COC sportsbook gang running the NSA because they seem to be able to keep secrets locked away better than the government.

I am trying to look at this from every angle and for me it all doesn't add up to dump. I know I am in the minority but it's ok, I don't often see things the way the majority does. I can live with that.

I can sure as hell admit when I am wrong and change my mind though when presented with irrefutable evidence.