Stance Aiming Right Heal

[Island Drive]

I'm right handed.

When I find the shot line that's correct for spin/speed/squirt....I walk along the shot line, set/fix my right heal on the line then get down on the shot.
When down if I'm a little left/right of my target, I get back up and rotate my whole body slightly left or right as needed.
Lately.....
Been consistently slightly overcutting most all high speed draw/follow long shots.
If I'm doing the ''same thing'' consistently wrong, there's always a simple reason.

Been looking at the pros footwork allot.
BUT WITH CURRENT PRO COMPETITIONS , THE FOOT WORK/WALKUP IS NOT OFTEN PART OF THE PRODUCTION.
I did this today, it helped.
I rotated my right foot OUTWARD to almost a 3 o'clock position, it used to be more forward in the 2:30 position.

What this has done is pull my handle hand inward.
And has helped create a straighter swing thru the shot.
If I pivot my right foot more inward (1:30 position) my swing overcuts More.

Also, looking a the pros other foot.... a common sight (not always) is the other foot is at or nearly at the 12 o'clock position seemingly parallel with the shot line.

 

[straightline]

FWIW, I plant the stick first. My feet kinda know how the stance sets up so it's a poly move. IMO moves like the Eckert back hand to hip to shot line is too rigid/not subject to adjustment and very low resolution for something like pool execution. Like to see this thread play out though. Very curious about the subject.

 

[fiftyyardline]

You mean your right HEEL.

 

[Black-Balled]

Body positioning is definitely an interesting topic.

We had a wrist thread, here a heel one.

No body part plays alone.

 

[Island Drive]

FWIW, I plant the stick first. My feet kinda know how the stance sets up so it's a poly move. IMO moves like the Eckert back hand to hip to shot line is too rigid/not subject to adjustment and very low resolution for something like pool execution. Like to see this thread play out though. Very curious about the subject.

When I find myself ''steering'' the shot/cue ball it's Always when my handle hand begins to creep ''further'' AWAY from my body.
To remind me when I see I'm starting to steer Whitey..... I do exactly that, before my walk up and bridge hand on table.

Thx St. Line, I'm gonna watch an Eckert video.

 

[The_JV]

I'm right handed.

When I find the shot line that's correct for spin/speed/squirt....I walk along the shot line, set/fix my right heal on the line then get down on the shot.

I was taught to step on that line, center foot, angled ~45degrees.

When down if I'm a little left/right of my target, I get back up and rotate my whole body slightly left or right as needed.

95% of the time I will rotate at my hips for what's typically minor correction. However if I find I've pivoted too much, I will reset like you suggest above.

Lately.....
Been consistently slightly overcutting most all high speed draw/follow long shots.
If I'm doing the ''same thing'' consistently wrong, there's always a simple reason.

Been looking at the pros footwork allot.
BUT WITH CURRENT PRO COMPETITIONS , THE FOOT WORK/WALKUP IS NOT OFTEN PART OF THE PRODUCTION.
I did this today, it helped.
I rotated my right foot OUTWARD to almost a 3 o'clock position, it used to be more forward in the 2:30 position.

What this has done is pull my handle hand inward.
And has helped create a straighter swing thru the shot.
If I pivot my right foot more inward (1:30 position) my swing overcuts More.

Is there a body interference component in your stance...? I'm genuinely surprised that pivoting your back foot produced such an outcome.

Although I will default back to a snooker-ish style of approach when I'm trying to grind out performance. My stance (feet) is really the one thing I don't sweat in my day to day efforts. I say that, and I'm sure for the casual viewer it appears as though I'm always doing the same thing, but I know when I following rigid form or not.

Unless there's a body component that pushes your stroke out of alignment. Is it possible that you've just fallen into subconscious habit with over cutting..? Maybe your eyesight is failing so your subconscious "shot picture" library is referencing incorrectly..? I know from first hand experience that just shaking up something fundamental in your game. Like your stance. Will force your conscious mind into greater control during play, and this will manifest in instant rewards.

I guess what I'm trying to say is... Although a player's stance is the basis for all they will develop fundamentally speaking. Once you have ingrained the upper torso into reliable/repeatable form. The rigid application of foot placement can usually be tossed in the bin. Don't mean to imply that stance doesn't matter. Just that a player that has HAMB'd without deviation from a single form, shouldn't need to place focus on how much to turn their feet.

 

[Island Drive]

I was taught to step on that line, center foot, angled ~45degrees.

95% of the time I will rotate at my hips for what's typically minor correction. However if I find I've pivoted too much, I will reset like you suggest above.

Is there a body interference component in your stance...? I'm genuinely surprised that pivoting your back foot produced such an outcome.

Although I will default back to a snooker-ish style of approach when I'm trying to grind out performance. My stance (feet) is really the one thing I don't sweat in my day to day efforts. I say that, and I'm sure for the casual viewer it appears as though I'm always doing the same thing, but I know when I following rigid form or not.

Unless there's a body component that pushes your stroke out of alignment. Is it possible that you've just fallen into subconscious habit with over cutting..? Maybe your eyesight is failing so your subconscious "shot picture" library is referencing incorrectly..? I know from first hand experience that just shaking up something fundamental in your game. Like your stance. Will force your conscious mind into greater control during play, and this will manifest in instant rewards.

I guess what I'm trying to say is... Although a player's stance is the basis for all they will develop fundamentally speaking. Once you have ingrained the upper torso into reliable/repeatable form. The rigid application of foot placement can usually be tossed in the bin. Don't mean to imply that stance doesn't matter. Just that a player that has HAMB'd without deviation from a single form, shouldn't need to place focus on how much to turn their feet.

Thx JV for your thoughts. When my 6'6'' framework/stance (body) is off slightly it's more noticeable that a shorter person when a miss occurs.
When your framework angles are longer..... Kaci, your able to deliver more to the shot at hand. But if your off just a little, it's way more noticeable when your tall vs shorter.
That's why 6'6'' Dustin Johnson PGA player, is able to hit further than most of the shorter players.
But it's also why you don't see top golf pros as tall as pro basketball players, too much can go wrong from the top of the swing to ball contact.

 

[dquarasr]

In his Play Great Pool book (excellent book, BTW) Mark Wilson recommends putting the toes of the back foot on the shot line, not the heel.

IIRC, so does Sharivari (YouTuber coaching videos) as do other respected video coaches.

Too far off the line requires pushing the elbow away from the body to be on the line; too far over the line such as aligning the heel crowds the shooting hand with the torso.

 

[slide13]

I try for ball of my foot on the shot line, so pretty close to the toe the line approach advocated in PGP (agreed, excellent book). I have a natural tendency to overstep my position, and go more heel on the line or even over it and then I just get all sorts of screwed up. Takes a conscious effort for me some days to get it right, other days it flows natural.

I like ball of my foot because that is where most of my weight will be focused in my stance.

 

[The_JV]

Thx JV for your thoughts. When my 6'6'' framework/stance (body) is off slightly it's more noticeable that a shorter person when a miss occurs.
When your framework angles are longer..... Kaci, your able to deliver more to the shot at hand. But if your off just a little, it's way more noticeable when your tall vs shorter.

I'm only 6' so I can't relate to the difficulties you bean stalks have to deal with

 

[kollegedave]

I am not going to say that footwork does not matter; it does. However, early in my pool life, I was so concerned about footwork that I did not pay attention to other very important things. One thing that I overlooked, and also might cause over-cutting, is a backswing that is "rushed" forward. Of course, you did not give us information about this, so I am fully aware that you may have a perfect transition from back to forward...but in case you are like me, and did not think about this for awhile, you might try it.

kollegedave

 

[straightline]

When I find myself ''steering'' the shot/cue ball it's Always when my handle hand begins to creep ''further'' AWAY from my body.
To remind me when I see I'm starting to steer Whitey..... I do exactly that, before my walk up and bridge hand on table.

Thx St. Line, I'm gonna watch an Eckert video.

Eckert is a very well versed instructor. I just don't agree with his line up technique. Numerous major players use it. What I do works best for my purposes. My walk up is built into the contact geometry. This allows me to land the stick into place as long as I'm in aiming position.

 

[Island Drive]

What I do now is walk up ''more left'' one tip or so.... then when I set my bridge hand on table I'm able to then bring my handle hand inward/near my hip naturally, now I'm able to hit my shot's with a straight follow thru.
I don't want to ''keep swinging'' (ie keep taking practice swings at my cue ball contact area before pull the trigger) because my natural swing, seems to always then want hit thru the shot to the right side of my chosen contact point on the cue ball.

I developed this habit in 63 when I started playing, never had Any instruction till WI 1968. I went to the Sailor of Racine for instruction before the Midwest collegiate championships at IU in Indiana.

 

[BRKNRUN]

I am a big proponent of Grip, Stance, Posture, Alignment and a natural stroke that takes no thought (other than set up)

IMO....the relationship between the grip hand (grip) and the back foot (stance) is an important part of natural straightness of stroke...but also timing of hit.

Here is a procedure you can try that may help you find (your natural) stroke.

• Stand at the center diamond end rail at a 90 degree angle to the table...(bridge hand closer to the table obviously)
• Cue in bridge hand (butt resting on the floor)
• Stand upright but relaxed...feet about shoulder width apart but don't put any thought into it.. just a natural standing position.
• Let your back (grip hand) arm hang down by your side (nice and relaxed)
• Eyes closed.....Eyes closed....Eyes closed
• Keeping your back (grip hand) arm right where it is....with your bridge hand (about the joint on the cue) bring the butt end up into your back hand and naturally grip the cue....(but don't move your arm or wrist)
• Open your eyes and look down.

You will (most likely) notice a few things......(If you have followed the steps above)

• Your grip hand is probably directly over your back foot (or right behind it a tad)
• Your cue is most likely going across your body and is pointed toward the side pocket.
• If you simulate a stroke motion from here.....When you fold up your forearm the butt of the cue (sticking out from the back of your grip hand) will line up and contact the back of your forearm.
• Now simply turn your front foot forward comfortably toward the cue line...you may even slide it inside a bit...(but the back foot should stay fixed) drop the cue straight down to a shooting position take a stroke....

This is your "natural" stroke......

However your back foot comfortably ended up to the cue is your natural (repeatable) foot position...it could be turned 90 degrees to the cue line or it could be facing slight forward......Most likely though the cue/back grip will be right around your toes (or balls of your foot)

Now....The cue of course must be along a specific line to the CB....that is a constant....We have to set up to the cue....(not the cue set up to us).

We need to "turn" that whole set up from being pointed at the side pocket to pointed down the line to the CB without changing any of those set up relationships....especially between the back foot and grip hand....

If you watch top players....There are two kinds of chalkers....grip hand chalkers (Earl, Fedor, Shane)...You will see how after they are done chalking the grip hand is very close to the "natural" hand position.

Bridge hand chalkers...(Efren)....You will see while he is chalking the grip hand is around the natural hang position.

They all have seem to have a constant though........The grip hand is right around where the hand naturally hangs (in relation to the back foot) and everything pivots into position off of that....

Now of course as you get stretched over the table you can't have your grip hand directly over your back foot....but it still starts that way and ends up just further up the cue line in front of your back foot.

The whole key is the cue going across your body at its natural angle (from the pointed toward the side pocket example) and rotating that whole set up for being down the shot line...

That whole set up rotates off of the back foot and the relationship between the back foot and grip hand IMO.....You need to note the relationships and build a PSR that puts everything in place with those natural relationships....

You also have a baseline to work from and tweak to perfection for you.....and as a bonus...when your stroke/game is off....you a have "set" baseline relationships to fall back on.

 

[measureman]

In over 65 years of playing I never once paid any attention to anything other than to get down on the shot and aim.
It's all just natural.
I think too many players worry about body position,head and arm position.
I guess if your fundamentals suck it's something to worry about.
There have been a number of real good players known and unknown that look really bad but play lights out.
Keith comes to mind.

 

[straightline]

In over 65 years of playing I never once paid any attention to anything other than to get down on the shot and aim.
It's all just natural.
I think too many players worry about body position,head and arm position.
I guess if your fundamentals suck it's something to worry about.
There have been a number of real good players known and unknown that look really bad but play lights out.
Keith comes to mind.

With Keith that seemed like the way you're supposed to do it.

 

[stewie]

I am a big proponent of Grip, Stance, Posture, Alignment and a natural stroke that takes no thought (other than set up)

IMO....the relationship between the grip hand (grip) and the back foot (stance) is an important part of natural straightness of stroke...but also timing of hit.

Here is a procedure you can try that may help you find (your natural) stroke.

• Stand at the center diamond end rail at a 90 degree angle to the table...(bridge hand closer to the table obviously)
• Cue in bridge hand (butt resting on the floor)
• Stand upright but relaxed...feet about shoulder width apart but don't put any thought into it.. just a natural standing position.
• Let your back (grip hand) arm hang down by your side (nice and relaxed)
• Eyes closed.....Eyes closed....Eyes closed
• Keeping your back (grip hand) arm right where it is....with your bridge hand (about the joint on the cue) bring the butt end up into your back hand and naturally grip the cue....(but don't move your arm or wrist)
• Open your eyes and look down.

You will (most likely) notice a few things......(If you have followed the steps above)

• Your grip hand is probably directly over your back foot (or right behind it a tad)
• Your cue is most likely going across your body and is pointed toward the side pocket.
• If you simulate a stroke motion from here.....When you fold up your forearm the butt of the cue (sticking out from the back of your grip hand) will line up and contact the back of your forearm.
• Now simply turn your front foot forward comfortably toward the cue line...you may even slide it inside a bit...(but the back foot should stay fixed) drop the cue straight down to a shooting position take a stroke....

This is your "natural" stroke......

However your back foot comfortably ended up to the cue is your natural (repeatable) foot position...it could be turned 90 degrees to the cue line or it could be facing slight forward......Most likely though the cue/back grip will be right around your toes (or balls of your foot)

Now....The cue of course must be along a specific line to the CB....that is a constant....We have to set up to the cue....(not the cue set up to us).

We need to "turn" that whole set up from being pointed at the side pocket to pointed down the line to the CB without changing any of those set up relationships....especially between the back foot and grip hand....

If you watch top players....There are two kinds of chalkers....grip hand chalkers (Earl, Fedor, Shane)...You will see how after they are done chalking the grip hand is very close to the "natural" hand position.

Bridge hand chalkers...(Efren)....You will see while he is chalking the grip hand is around the natural hang position.

They all have seem to have a constant though........The grip hand is right around where the hand naturally hangs (in relation to the back foot) and everything pivots into position off of that....

Now of course as you get stretched over the table you can't have your grip hand directly over your back foot....but it still starts that way and ends up just further up the cue line in front of your back foot.

The whole key is the cue going across your body at its natural angle (from the pointed toward the side pocket example) and rotating that whole set up for being down the shot line...

That whole set up rotates off of the back foot and the relationship between the back foot and grip hand IMO.....You need to note the relationships and build a PSR that puts everything in place with those natural relationships....

You also have a baseline to work from and tweak to perfection for you.....and as a bonus...when your stroke/game is off....you a have "set" baseline relationships to fall back on.

I learned years ago: the hip alignment is key. Hold the cue at the balance point and let your arm drop down and let your cue hang loose and relaxed. The cue will hang in a natural angle to your hip. That's your specific angle. When you shoot, you should stand with your hip in that angle to your shot line. If you watch yourself closely that right stand will feel comfortable. That's what the book "Pleasures of small motions" was about.

 

[Island Drive]

I quit for 20 yrs..... to get my kids thru college/divorce.
The X.... gave her everything so she wouldn't move.
It worked.
Got my girls thru college, never disturbed the nest/now have two GREAT son in laws/5 grandkids.
During that time period, I knew I had fundamental issues that should/would be addressed.
For 30 yrs, I played so much I was able to overcome my poor mechanics, beat Stickland 4 sets races to 11 in 79 in Long Beach 2K.
Buddy, Archer, and Many others in pro events so I Know how to play. Earl I beat gambling Roll out 9 Ball.... Paramount Billiards Long Beach Ca.

So while not playing allot, I knew if I did play again, I'm now 30 yrs older, I could possibly improve by correcting what I knew was Wrong.

So this is why I'm writing and telling this to you, and many above comments are very conformingly helpful.
It's nice to hear from others about the same things I'm working thru, but from another's perspective.

thx guys

bm

 

[FeelDaShot]

Mark Wilson has a really great book on fundamentals. Regarding the rear foot placement, his book recommends placing the rear foot perpendicular to the shot line with the toe on the shot line. This technique results in more separation between the butt of the cue and the side of your body.

If you're used to having a square, snooker style stance, this technique will feel very different. But I made the change and I'm a firm believer in it. My arm feels looser and freely swings below the elbow like a pendulum.

 

[Island Drive]

After a couple hours I like what's ''played out''.

Kicked out my right foot all the way to 3 o'clock, left foot at 12 o'clock.
90-degree difference between the two.
If It was a clock, it would be 3 o'clock.
Bigfoot at 12 o'clock high other foot at 3 pm.


That didn't work, I watched Kaci, and now I'm in cue. FINALLY

Here's a copy paste of my games response to this 3 o'clock situation with Right/foot right handed player.

After I couple days of doing this, didn't hold up.
Next....
I watched a few Kaci matches (I'm 1'' taller).
Focused on ''his'' footwork and changed today.
Found it interesting today, listening to the PGA announcers talking about the players changing grip/stance/footwork and what they must go thru to ''fine tune''/incorporate.... then stop thinking about once in place, and to finally be able to....''let it happen.''