straight parts, not so straight roll
- Thread starter Celophanewrap
- Start date
FWIW, the OP contacted me. Depending on how his league team does in playoffs tonight, I might get to see the cue tomorrow. If they win, then we'll regroup for a later date.
I agree that the empirical evidence points to a simple facing of the shaft - but I've been fooled before by making assumptions, so I'll take a good look at everything before doing anything.
Will let you know what I find.
Gary
I agree that the empirical evidence points to a simple facing of the shaft - but I've been fooled before by making assumptions, so I'll take a good look at everything before doing anything.
Will let you know what I find.
Gary
I'm a little slow on the uptake at times, comes with age I guess but I think I now see why you decided to go off.
You thought I was talking about you and you took it personally. Guess what? I wasn't.
I was talking to all the people in general who are quick to jump to the conclusion that their pin must be bent.
You can prove this to yourself by re-reading what I wrote in post #9:
"People are very quick to think their pin is bent. Why, I don't know."
You'll notice that I used the word 'their'. I could just as easily typed 'this'. The only way that post applies
to you personally is if you're the OP and you're talking about your pin is suspect of being bent. He didn't.
So if I've got this right, that one little misinterpreted paragraph is what's responsible for all this drama.
Ah.....why did you feel the need to mention Seyberts? I didn't. I said I worked for a rather large dealership.
Since you've breached the subject, let me set the record straight. I'm not a Seyberts employee. I'm an independent
contractor who happens to enjoy the opportunity of doing all of Seybert's custom work and I speak for myself only.
As to the glorifying character traits you've attributed to me, you're absolutely correct. I'm every bit of that
and more. It's part of who I am. I wouldn't be me without any of them. And no, I'm not being sarcastic.
I hope this brings things into better focus for you. None of this is doing squat for the OP and it's his thread.
See ya, KJ
Embarrassed!!!
Well, the OP was able to make it over this morning. I rolled his butt on my worktable - no warp. Butt is a Predator full splice.
I rolled his shaft (a 314) on my worktable, a little bit of bow, but not bad.
Screwed together, the tip lifted a good 1/4" or so off the table. The lift was from the joint and the joint didn't lift when the tip went back to the table. Sure looked like a simple facing issue.
I put the butt in the lathe, indicated it true, and spun it slowly, no obvious wobble.
I put the shaft in the lathe, trued it up and took a very light facing off the end.
Put it back on the butt and no change - the tip lifted the same amount and at the same location. I put the shaft back in the lathe and indicated it from the end (in line with the axis of the shaft) and it didn't waiver a hair.
I put the butt back in the lathe and indicated the face from the front - there was some variation, but not enough I don't think to cause the lift that we saw. It was a stainless steel piloted joint and I haven't done any work with stainless, so I wasn't comfortable facing it off at all.
And, he had two more shafts with him - both 314's - one rolled perfect on and off the butt and the other lifted maybe an 1/8 - 3/16" off the table when screwed on the butt.
So, I hung my head in embarrasment and explained that I wasn't sure what the heck is going on and that I wasn't comfortable experimenting with his gear. I referred him to another cue repairman here in town. I'm hoping that he will let me know what the final solution is, if he ever gets one.
No charge to him, of course, because I didn't fix anything, just spent some of his time and gas to get over here.
So here I stand before you all, hat in hand and red in the face
.
I've done all the potential repairs successfully in the past - 1) facing 2) boring, plugging and retapping a shaft, 3) re-pinning a butt. But I really believe you have to know your limits and back off when start to go over your abilities - especially on a customer's equipment.
Gary
Well, the OP was able to make it over this morning. I rolled his butt on my worktable - no warp. Butt is a Predator full splice.
I rolled his shaft (a 314) on my worktable, a little bit of bow, but not bad.
Screwed together, the tip lifted a good 1/4" or so off the table. The lift was from the joint and the joint didn't lift when the tip went back to the table. Sure looked like a simple facing issue.
I put the butt in the lathe, indicated it true, and spun it slowly, no obvious wobble.
I put the shaft in the lathe, trued it up and took a very light facing off the end.
Put it back on the butt and no change - the tip lifted the same amount and at the same location. I put the shaft back in the lathe and indicated it from the end (in line with the axis of the shaft) and it didn't waiver a hair.
I put the butt back in the lathe and indicated the face from the front - there was some variation, but not enough I don't think to cause the lift that we saw. It was a stainless steel piloted joint and I haven't done any work with stainless, so I wasn't comfortable facing it off at all.
And, he had two more shafts with him - both 314's - one rolled perfect on and off the butt and the other lifted maybe an 1/8 - 3/16" off the table when screwed on the butt.
So, I hung my head in embarrasment and explained that I wasn't sure what the heck is going on and that I wasn't comfortable experimenting with his gear. I referred him to another cue repairman here in town. I'm hoping that he will let me know what the final solution is, if he ever gets one.
No charge to him, of course, because I didn't fix anything, just spent some of his time and gas to get over here.
So here I stand before you all, hat in hand and red in the face
.I've done all the potential repairs successfully in the past - 1) facing 2) boring, plugging and retapping a shaft, 3) re-pinning a butt. But I really believe you have to know your limits and back off when start to go over your abilities - especially on a customer's equipment.
Gary
Is it possible someone had replaced the insert in the 314 shaft?
Could be the original owner bought a 18 thread for a deal and had the insert changed to 14.... And new insert was installed crooked?
I've noticed a bunch of posts in the last 6 months or so asking about replacing inserts, or making a shaft for one type of cue fit another type.... Etc etc
Maybe this is what happened, I can't thing I anything else from the top of my head.
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I am here: http://tapatalk.com/map.php?zhlrw3
Could be the original owner bought a 18 thread for a deal and had the insert changed to 14.... And new insert was installed crooked?
I've noticed a bunch of posts in the last 6 months or so asking about replacing inserts, or making a shaft for one type of cue fit another type.... Etc etc
Maybe this is what happened, I can't thing I anything else from the top of my head.
---
I am here: http://tapatalk.com/map.php?zhlrw3
I have to agree( Big Deal Right, LOL). My question would be do your arbors go up as far as the joint pin?
I don't think the insert had been replaced - I screwed one of my maintenance arbors into it and gave it a spin - no appreciable wobble.
Did the same on the butt with the same observation.
Thanks,
Gary
Several years ago I had some issues with premade inserts that no matter how straight I thought that I had installed them, they still caused a very similar problem. One of the fine makers here on this forum told me that he had once had the same issue and turned out that the inserts themselves were not true, and that he switched to threading solid brass inserts, and drilled and tapped afterwards to solve the problem. I found that plugging, and using his method worked for me, but also the self centering inserts worked. They just don't grab as well as I would prefer. From those experiences I assume that I was experiencing the same problem as he mentioned, and in fact the original inserts were not true. I have since used other full threaded inserts and not experienced the same problem. I use a 3/8-10 in My own cues now, and have no issues plugging or tapping straight into the wood, but I still have to use inserts on the repair side for other thread pitches.
Another way to use a bad insert if there's no better alternative, is to install It into a piece of scrap maple, turn the OD of that off of a true mandrel, or in some cases on the repair side this really comes in handy if You do that off of the handle that It's going to be matched to, and basically plug that into the shaft. This method is also useful in getting a better match of the ODs of the shaft and handle when screwed together, in situations like switching a insert out for another thread pitch or doing a repair on one.
Anyhow without seeing the cue I could not say that this is needed, but I have ran into issues that sound similar to the description, and I solved It By installing a new insert. I have heard of people that can solve this in the way that they face the joint even though It's off, but I don't know the trick to that one, and for that matter like I mentioned I don't even know that It is the problem here, just sounds like there's a chance that It could be..Of coarse If there's no wobble on a true mandrel, then It may not be the problem.
Greg
Another way to use a bad insert if there's no better alternative, is to install It into a piece of scrap maple, turn the OD of that off of a true mandrel, or in some cases on the repair side this really comes in handy if You do that off of the handle that It's going to be matched to, and basically plug that into the shaft. This method is also useful in getting a better match of the ODs of the shaft and handle when screwed together, in situations like switching a insert out for another thread pitch or doing a repair on one.
Anyhow without seeing the cue I could not say that this is needed, but I have ran into issues that sound similar to the description, and I solved It By installing a new insert. I have heard of people that can solve this in the way that they face the joint even though It's off, but I don't know the trick to that one, and for that matter like I mentioned I don't even know that It is the problem here, just sounds like there's a chance that It could be..Of coarse If there's no wobble on a true mandrel, then It may not be the problem.
Greg
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Update:
UPDATE:
OK, so it's almost a year later and the shaft had been faced off last summer and I've been through a couple of other shafts and it is getting closer to straight but was still was driving me up a wall. You know, you get down to stroke the shot and you swear you can actually see a bend in the shaft, so I've used several other cues but I really wanted to get back to this one, so I started to look for the same model. Finally I found a suitable cue, not quite a match but similar. The older cue, my floppy cue has a steel joint and this new (used) one was a wood to wood, but that's OK, I can have the joint changed out. So I took it a local cue maker, he looked at the new one and made a recommendation and we went with it. It looks and plays great. So as he's showing me my newly altered cue I mention to him that I have this other one just like it but could never get it straight. "Lets' see it", so I get it out. It's close to straight but not quite, so he puts the shaft on the lathe and gives it a turn or two, the does the same to the butt at the joint and puts it together... *perfection*
It was great to have this cue back and in order instead of having to settle for "something close".
Kudos to Tom for identifying this in the first place and thanks to Gary (GBQ) for offering to help in the first place and helping to identify what it was, I seem to recall you mentioning that it could be the steel portion of the joint.
Ernie Martinez has been building quality stuff around these parts for years and is a bit of a local legend and his pieces of art have sold world wide. In a lot of ways Ernie has flown under the radar but his cues are among the very best around and he does incredible work and I for one am hopeful that he will take his place next to the likes of Stroud, Scruggs, Frey, Janes and the rest of top tier cue makers.
UPDATE:
OK, so it's almost a year later and the shaft had been faced off last summer and I've been through a couple of other shafts and it is getting closer to straight but was still was driving me up a wall. You know, you get down to stroke the shot and you swear you can actually see a bend in the shaft, so I've used several other cues but I really wanted to get back to this one, so I started to look for the same model. Finally I found a suitable cue, not quite a match but similar. The older cue, my floppy cue has a steel joint and this new (used) one was a wood to wood, but that's OK, I can have the joint changed out. So I took it a local cue maker, he looked at the new one and made a recommendation and we went with it. It looks and plays great. So as he's showing me my newly altered cue I mention to him that I have this other one just like it but could never get it straight. "Lets' see it", so I get it out. It's close to straight but not quite, so he puts the shaft on the lathe and gives it a turn or two, the does the same to the butt at the joint and puts it together... *perfection*
It was great to have this cue back and in order instead of having to settle for "something close".
Kudos to Tom for identifying this in the first place and thanks to Gary (GBQ) for offering to help in the first place and helping to identify what it was, I seem to recall you mentioning that it could be the steel portion of the joint.
Ernie Martinez has been building quality stuff around these parts for years and is a bit of a local legend and his pieces of art have sold world wide. In a lot of ways Ernie has flown under the radar but his cues are among the very best around and he does incredible work and I for one am hopeful that he will take his place next to the likes of Stroud, Scruggs, Frey, Janes and the rest of top tier cue makers.
What's chamfering?
Hi,
Maybe the pin is slightly canted. Maybe the thread hole on one shaft is canted also but when joined it rolls good.
If the bad shaft was done true concentric some where else, then the canted pin might make the tip jump. Look for a tiny air gap on one side of the joint when held up to the light.
Who knows!!
Rick
Maybe the pin is slightly canted. Maybe the thread hole on one shaft is canted also but when joined it rolls good.
If the bad shaft was done true concentric some where else, then the canted pin might make the tip jump. Look for a tiny air gap on one side of the joint when held up to the light.
Who knows!!
Rick
Not so straight
Screw the shaft onto the butt. Using your fingernail, go around the joint and see if the shaft is concentric with the butt. ( it should be either flush, or the small offset all around the joint.) If it isn't then that may be part of the problem.
Screw the shaft onto the butt. Using your fingernail, go around the joint and see if the shaft is concentric with the butt. ( it should be either flush, or the small offset all around the joint.) If it isn't then that may be part of the problem.
You bevel the hole with a counter sink like you would do with a flat head screw.
Kik
Chamfering helps if a facing was done after the pin was installed on the handle and for fear of hitting the pin, It wasn't done close enough. With dash rings I usually like to line them up after, so not only do I slightly champer the shaft facing, but I also do It before boring for My pin to account for that. just a little bit on that side though, not as much as the shaft side. Then I can get right up to the pin without any issues, and the chamfer usually disappears in the handle side by the time I've lined the dashes up. Sometimes certain woods or just a tool bit not being as sharp as It could be leaves a slight ribbon or even a slightly freyed edge right against the pin, but a real sharp razor takes them off leaving a really clean edge. There's always a better way, but this has worked for me, and I don't have any issues with the faces not matching up.
Greg
Thanks very much for this tip!!:thumbup: I chamfer the shaft side, but never thought about doing the butt side. I have had a little bit of the problem you describe sometimes when facing the butt and your technique will solve that.
Gotta love the free exchange of information amongst the guys here!:grin:
Gary
Your very welcome Gary, hope that it helps you out. It's worked out well enough for me that I don't even need to chamfer the shaft if I don't want to, and I could actually achieve more face to face contact by not using one on the shaft. I still like to use It there though, because to me It's just a much cleaner look, and also helps locate the pin for less chance of cross-threading a shaft. I've seen more unchamfered shafts come in for thread repair over the years then the chamfered, so prefer to use them in My own shafts as well. I think the key goal for me is getting It sized just right so that i don't lose too much face contact, but still reach my intended goal. I've done them both ways, and don't see enough of a difference in the way they play not use them. In theory though the more contact area the better I suppose.
Greg
Wouldn't seeing light more likely indicate a screw bottoming without pulling the faces together?