STROKE TIMING … A Complete MythBusting Study of Stroke Acceleration Effects

[straightline]

Does it really matter that much?
I have played eight ball where, after lining up for the shot, all the players closed their eyes for the stroke.
I've also made shots and realized afterwards that during the stroke my eyes weren't really focused on anything specific.

I see the tomato/potahto syndrome lol. Omitting the gory details, shots that always went in practice would ambush me out the blue until I realized that the problem was the same as the one caused by long shots jacked way up. The masse effect in those was just an effect of a visual problem - Parallax Distortion. The brain doesn't know what it's seeing and chooses the apparent angle over the correct alignment. I say "confirmation bias" - don't know if that's exactly the condition but the correction here is CBL. It eliminates the subliminal fudging toward the angle in your head.

I now make shots consistently that were a threat with the saner eyeball method.

 

[gerryf]

It matters if you want to play decent, lol.

Lou Figueroa

You need your eyes to line up the stroke for sure. But after that, and as far as aiming goes, I don't think it matters a lot if you find it easier to focus on the CB or the OB. Some people (like me) find it easier to focus on the CB for shots off the cushion, but I'd normally focus on the OB for normal shots. I think most pros focus on the OB, but we've all heard Hendry and O'Sullivan and others who've said they focus on the cue ball last. You can see Higgins move his eyes up and down with his feathers, and as his stroke begins his eyes are on the CB but sweeping up to the OB. (my eyes don't focus fast enough for that to work for me.)

Focusing on the OB seems to be important in judging the pace of the shot. When we used to play blind eight-ball, it was often noted that closing your eyes during the stroke seems to result in shooting harder (and lousy position) even though you could make the pot.

There was an article once asking exactly what people focus on when they aim. Unless it's a straight-in shot, your eyes aren't focused on the CB-OB contact point. Some people focus on CB/OB overlap, or on a 'shot-line' as it runs into or beside the OB. But the target is frequently poorly defined, and it comes down to judgment developed by practice. But it's not like shooting a gun where you have a defined point of aim - it's more like a zone of aiming I think.

 

[Bob Jewett]

... heard Hendry and O'Sullivan a...

I watched O'Sullivan in a recent match. Object ball last. Look for yourself.

When you are learning to aim I think OB last is very important because you have to learn where you are landing the cue ball. Your fiddles and address take care of the cue ball, assuming your bridge hand isn't flopping around during the stroke.

 

[gregcantrall]

watched O'Sullivan in a recent match. Object ball last. Look for yourself.

I have made Ronnie's eye pattern a study for many years since he made the statement that it could be either. I find it amusing when I see one thing and the object ball faction see another. With Ronnie it's hard for me to be sure on the majority of his shots. I do notice a quick eye pattern in Ronnie and the break off is the best place to see his eye pattern. The camera sometimes gives a good look on that shot. I wouldn't assume that his eye pattern is the same on all shots based on his own words from long ago. I would wager that if asked today his answer will not be object ball. At the very least either and based on my observations and Hendry's statement, cueball last Most often.
I will also wager that if I find a good view of Ronnie's eyes on break off the object ball faction are going to claim victory on shots that I think he moves his eyes to the white at contact. Oh well, I will endeavor to link to a look at his break off shot. However I expect we will see it differently .
Do you know of a way to get an answer from Ronnie at this time? Given his statements of fiddling and adjusting with his methods it might not be the same as his statement of, "it could be either" from approximately 10 years ago.

 

[gregcantrall]

Just got a giggle watching for Ronnie's eye pattern. On one shot he shifts his eyes sideways immediately before delivering the stroke. Not looking away at contact but a quick side glance and then back to wherever they were before. His eyes are so steady and his actions so quick its "hard to say", oh wait that is Ronnie's answer as well.
Well I guess it would be of little use to ask him, as the OBL standard answer is "he doesn't know". He has even admitted to the same. Your Honor.

 

[Oze147]

I didn't read through all the pages, so please tell me, if my question has already been answered.

I work a lot with kids and teenagers and while I know the technical explanations of a good stroke, especially for beginners this explanations are...well too techniqual.
So I try to teach a lot through feeling what is right. If they hit a good draw shot, I try to let them memorize the feeling in their hand, their wrist their arm etc.
And the other way around, if they have a bad stroke again, why does it feel wrong.
This approach works for most beginners, even for kids.

So here is my question:

If the contact time between cue tip and cue ball obviously is very, very short, why are we still able to "feel" a bad stroke, or are our hands, nerves...muscles...so sensitive that we can even feel so small errors?

 

[gregcantrall]

Starting at the 4:25 mark is 2 back to back shots from the pocket camera. I have no guess as to which ball his eyes are on at contact in either shot but the second gives the quick side glance.

 

[Oikawa]

I didn't read through all the pages, so please tell me, if my question has already been answered.

I work a lot with kids and teenagers and while I know the technical explanations of a good stroke, especially for beginners this explanations are...well too techniqual.
So I try to teach a lot through feeling what is right. If they hit a good draw shot, I try to let them memorize the feeling in their hand, their wrist their arm etc.
And the other way around, if they have a bad stroke again, why does it feel wrong.
This approach works for most beginners, even for kids.

So here is my question:

If the contact time between cue tip and cue ball obviously is very, very short, why are we still able to "feel" a bad stroke, or are our hands, nerves...muscles...so sensitive that we can even feel so small errors?

The sensation of feeling a bad stroke is probably from knowing, on a more subconscious level, that you did something you don't usually do, for example, steer the cue, tense your muscles, move your body, drop the elbow or have a weird timing.

You just might associate that feeling with wrong things if you don't understand the reasons enough, or have faulty information e.g. that the cue stays in contact for a long time on a good hit.

 

[gregcantrall]

Oh what a relief! I found a clip of Ronniie on cue action. Very close to being, "On Topic".

 

[gregcantrall]

One more from Ronnie. Mastering the cue ball.

At 1:15 is a good look at his eyes as he shoots. I couldn't guess where his eyes are, okay will put it on the big screen and slow it down but I bet OBL fanatics will swear by it regardless. Hmmmm. Well unable to slow it but on the big screen, I can't tell. However his words give a clue, along with the 2 players he picks for exemplary cueball control. Stephen Hendry and John Higgins. Hendry has spoken and Higgins heavy eyebrows give a signal as to where his eyes are. His eyebrows end at down on the stroke.
Cueball control is what I improved when I made the switch. Your results might vary. Besides Stephen doesn't think you can switch. Well a normal person. I don't strive to be normal though.

 

[gregcantrall]

Going to call Foul on myself.
I found a demonstration shot where Ronnie's eyes are definitely on the white when it's struck.

There are 22 videos in this series. That should keep me amused until sunrise.

 

[lfigueroa]

You need your eyes to line up the stroke for sure. But after that, and as far as aiming goes, I don't think it matters a lot if you find it easier to focus on the CB or the OB. Some people (like me) find it easier to focus on the CB for shots off the cushion, but I'd normally focus on the OB for normal shots. I think most pros focus on the OB, but we've all heard Hendry and O'Sullivan and others who've said they focus on the cue ball last. You can see Higgins move his eyes up and down with his feathers, and as his stroke begins his eyes are on the CB but sweeping up to the OB. (my eyes don't focus fast enough for that to work for me.)

Focusing on the OB seems to be important in judging the pace of the shot. When we used to play blind eight-ball, it was often noted that closing your eyes during the stroke seems to result in shooting harder (and lousy position) even though you could make the pot.

There was an article once asking exactly what people focus on when they aim. Unless it's a straight-in shot, your eyes aren't focused on the CB-OB contact point. Some people focus on CB/OB overlap, or on a 'shot-line' as it runs into or beside the OB. But the target is frequently poorly defined, and it comes down to judgment developed by practice. But it's not like shooting a gun where you have a defined point of aim - it's more like a zone of aiming I think.

I can understand how people with leg, back, or neck issues might find it easier to look at the CB last.

And I also know from personal experimentation it's possible to pull the trigger with your eyes closed. But that does not mean it is a "best practice" if you want optimal results.

Lou Figueroa

 

[lfigueroa]

I watched O'Sullivan in a recent match. Object ball last. Look for yourself.

When you are learning to aim I think OB last is very important because you have to learn where you are landing the cue ball. Your fiddles and address take care of the cue ball, assuming your bridge hand isn't flopping around during the stroke.

Agreed.

Lou Figueroa

 

[FranCrimi]

I didn't read through all the pages, so please tell me, if my question has already been answered.

I work a lot with kids and teenagers and while I know the technical explanations of a good stroke, especially for beginners this explanations are...well too techniqual.
So I try to teach a lot through feeling what is right. If they hit a good draw shot, I try to let them memorize the feeling in their hand, their wrist their arm etc.
And the other way around, if they have a bad stroke again, why does it feel wrong.
This approach works for most beginners, even for kids.

So here is my question:

If the contact time between cue tip and cue ball obviously is very, very short, why are we still able to "feel" a bad stroke, or are our hands, nerves...muscles...so sensitive that we can even feel so small errors?

Well, I think the point that's being made here is that a good or bad stroke doesn't affect tip contact time. However, tip placement is a different story. What makes a person feel a good or bad stroke and where the tip strikes the cue ball, comes from experience, which is basically memory. The more we play, the more we are able to register results in our mind and correlate each result with a particular feel.

 

[gregcantrall]

Sometimes it's hard to put my prejudice aside. I am aware of a tendency to see what I expect or prefer. In my search for a definitive look at Ronnie's eyes on the Break off I got a surprise. :disclaimer: The breakoff is easiest to read for me and Not Necessarily how they shoot every shot.
In this video I find the first break by Kyren Wilson gives a good look at his eyes. Kyren studied under Barry Stark who definitely teaches object ball last.

Since it's the opening of the video, I got excited and haven't seen the rest but hope for more good looks at the eye patterns.

 

[gregcantrall]

Agreed.

Lou Figueroa

I have hinted at putting my money where my mouth is. I will make a solid offer to you and or Mr Jewett of $500 to your favorite charity if Ronnie says, "object ball last". Of course if he says "cueball at contact or last" . You match it and we both contribute to my named charity. If he says, "either" it's a push.
I am hoping somebody has a direct line to Ronnie.
[Edit] It's been 12 hours and I've given my word that I am done with the off topic, so. Squat Douche the offer. Statue of limitations has expired

 

[gregcantrall]

I will also book a bet on having waffles for breakfast.

 

[gregcantrall]

Sales was never my strong suit or is it suite?
I think my attachment to the truth held me back in that regard.

 

[gregcantrall]

Well 1 down. If Bob takes me up on it....I am in trouble. As I am guessing he has a means to make a contact. Just a guess though.

You send 'em to school. You give 'em the books. And all they want to do is.....post irrelevant pictures.

 

[DeadStick]

Well 1 down. If Bob takes me up on it....I am in trouble. As I am guessing he has a means to make a contact. Just a guess though.

Can you maybe let it go now? At least in this thread? It’s annoying when one guy is making 90% of the comments, all off-topic, in one thread. Not to mention disrespectful to the OP, who is likely getting notified and reading every new comment.