Subletting?

ribdoner

SATISFACTION GUARANTEED
Silver Member
Great job of taking care of your customer and communicating

adam===>not a cue maker, but, has taken numerous naps in a couple cue makers shops

i'm probably in the minority...i don't care for the shiny, automotive finishes which don't seem to allow wood to age, etc

on a different note: is it just me or do the vast majority of cues today "sound" different than those of yesteryear
 

qbilder

slower than snails
Silver Member
I'll play devil's advocate. What happens if that cue begins having finish issues? You won't be able to fix them. You'll need to send it back to the guy who finished it. What if he charges you for a full refinish? Worse yet, what if this happens with numerous cues? You're now stuck. What happens if a cue gets sold third party & 5 years from now somebody who was never a customer of yours wants you to fix a chip in the finish of his cue, that you built? You can't fix it to original. You'll have to strip and entirely refinish.

The what ifs go on & on & on, but I promise you these scenarios DO happen. Then what? All these guys on the forum telling you that you did just fine, supporting you, are they going to jump in and save your ass when all this crap happens? Heck no they won't. All this support will turn into crickets. Building an ORDERED cue that you cannot finish is like writing a check without money in the bank. Finishing is a critical part of cue making, and you must learn to do it at a competent level if you wish to be a cue maker. Your cues will be better for it, and you'll be a better maker.

Sorry if I came across crude or mean. My intention wasn't to be hurtful, but entirely to be blunt and upfront about what you should expect. I never said anything you didn't already know in your gut, anyway. Your gut wasn't lying to you or coddling you like a baby. It was trying to save your ass.
 

measureman

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Leonardo da Vinci was known to start a painting and lose interest in it for what ever reason and have the other artists in his shop finish it.
If he could do it there is no reason you cant do it.
You did the right thing .
 

acedonkeyace

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Dont worry about what MIGHT happen in the future.

Your integrity shows that if something happens in the future you will deal with it in a way that you as a cue builder would want to have done if you had another cuebuilder build a cue for you.

My family owned and operated an upholstering and cabinetry and woodworking business for over 105 years.

We have furniture that comes back after 75 years of ownership and they want the original business to reupholster or refinish the piece of furniture. We have materials that are still available for finishing and we have others that are not and we have again others that are better/newer finishes for the woods today that were not available when the piece was originally worked on. You have to know what you can and what you cant do, properly and at a high level of quality and proficiency. So, just keep being honest with yourself and your customers and you will always come out ahead.

But, of course I have learned you cant please everyone all the time, so I just follow the approach in life of integrity in what I do and treat others the way I would want to be treated.

After that, let the 1/10 of 1 percent a-holes, live the miserable lives they have lived and will live.

Respectfully,

Mike 'acedonkeyace' Kennedy
The CueMan--Kennedys Billiard ProShop and Repairs
Largo, Florida 33771
Joes Matress and Upholstering and Woodworking
Portland, Oregon--Since 1908--Same location 7608 Interstate Ave. Portland Or, 97217
 

JoeyInCali

Maker of Joey Bautista Cues
Silver Member
I'll play devil's advocate. What happens if that cue begins having finish issues? You won't be able to fix them. You'll need to send it back to the guy who finished it. What if he charges you for a full refinish? Worse yet, what if this happens with numerous cues? You're now stuck. What happens if a cue gets sold third party & 5 years from now somebody who was never a customer of yours wants you to fix a chip in the finish of his cue, that you built? You can't fix it to original. You'll have to strip and entirely refinish.

The what ifs go on & on & on, but I promise you these scenarios DO happen. Then what? All these guys on the forum telling you that you did just fine, supporting you, are they going to jump in and save your ass when all this crap happens? Heck no they won't. All this support will turn into crickets. Building an ORDERED cue that you cannot finish is like writing a check without money in the bank. Finishing is a critical part of cue making, and you must learn to do it at a competent level if you wish to be a cue maker. Your cues will be better for it, and you'll be a better maker.

Sorry if I came across crude or mean. My intention wasn't to be hurtful, but entirely to be blunt and upfront about what you should expect. I never said anything you didn't already know in your gut, anyway. Your gut wasn't lying to you or coddling you like a baby. It was trying to save your ass.

The problem is, could he have finished that cue in reasonable amount of time ?
And that he does not want to spray auto clear for now .
If the cue or cues do need refinishing later on, he can be up front and tell them he's not spraying auto clear.
If he does decide to spray auto clear, there's plenty of help here really.
Or if he gets in on a group at FB, there will be plenty of advice.


Finishing has made me cry than any step in cue building. It did the same to my late mentor too.
Finishing is a money pit and time vampire as he mentioned. Specially if you spray outside. Lord, summer this year has been brutal every where . The heat and humidity here have been brutal. Auto clears and epoxy do not like humidity.
I don't even want to think about how much money I have spent on finishing products and tools. It might be all the profit I have made on making cues .
Wait, profit? Pft!
 

JC

Coos Cues
I'll play devil's advocate. What happens if that cue begins having finish issues? You won't be able to fix them. You'll need to send it back to the guy who finished it. What if he charges you for a full refinish? Worse yet, what if this happens with numerous cues? You're now stuck. What happens if a cue gets sold third party & 5 years from now somebody who was never a customer of yours wants you to fix a chip in the finish of his cue, that you built? You can't fix it to original. You'll have to strip and entirely refinish.

The what ifs go on & on & on, but I promise you these scenarios DO happen. Then what? All these guys on the forum telling you that you did just fine, supporting you, are they going to jump in and save your ass when all this crap happens? Heck no they won't. All this support will turn into crickets. Building an ORDERED cue that you cannot finish is like writing a check without money in the bank. Finishing is a critical part of cue making, and you must learn to do it at a competent level if you wish to be a cue maker. Your cues will be better for it, and you'll be a better maker.

Sorry if I came across crude or mean. My intention wasn't to be hurtful, but entirely to be blunt and upfront about what you should expect. I never said anything you didn't already know in your gut, anyway. Your gut wasn't lying to you or coddling you like a baby. It was trying to save your ass.

These are all good points, thank you for them.

Mistakes by my employees in my European auto repair business that cost me more than i sold this cue for are not that uncommon so I do have some experience in handling problems.

If I had more time this summer I would have worked it out myself but I just have stuff I need to do right now.

JC
 

Michael Webb

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
JC;
It gets easier in time. Finishing is the easy part for me now. Just takes time, patience and the ability to learn about your materials and finish.
 

GoldCrown

AzB Gold Member
Gold Member
Silver Member
My question is does this make me a hack or unmanly or something? I sort of feel like a failure about this.

Thanks,

JC

Hi. I'm not a cue maker. As a customer I would appreciate the honestly...especially if the cue was to my satisfaction. You did not have to say anything to us or the customer but you did meaning you care about what you are doing...try to do things right...and are up front. Please do not beat yourself up....feel good about being straight shooter. It's learning experience that makes you smarter & stronger.
 

qbilder

slower than snails
Silver Member
The problem is, could he have finished that cue in reasonable amount of time ?

No he couldn't have. That's why I said building an ordered cue you can't finish is like writing a check with no money in the bank. The guy seems genuine & stand up, and his mistake wasn't outsourcing the finish. His mistake was accepting an order before he knew how to make a cue. If he's too inexperienced & lacks knowledge to finish the cue, then what else does he not know? I'm not being an ass. These are legit concerns with solid merit. And to be fair, I wouldn't have said a word if he hadn't opened the topic for discussion and asked for opinions. All he got was a bunch of coddling with nobody explaining the reality of the situation. I seriously cannot be the only builder here who has dealt with pool players. It's not exactly an ideal target market.

And that he does not want to spray auto clear for now .
If the cue or cues do need refinishing later on, he can be up front and tell them he's not spraying auto clear.

I don't blame him. I don't, either. It's a wise choice by him, IMO. It comes with a degree of difficulty that requires a learning curve. Auto clear was by far the easiest & best looking finish I have ever done. If you can't get good results with auto clear, you're in trouble. That's not the case with any other finish I have used. Every other finish is a lot more hands on labor, and requires some hand skills. He will find one he likes, perfect it, and will be much happier with himself.


Finishing has made me cry than any step in cue building. It did the same to my late mentor too.
Finishing is a money pit and time vampire as he mentioned. Specially if you spray outside. I don't even want to think about how much money I have spent on finishing products and tools. It might be all the profit I have made on making cues .
Wait, profit? Pft!

Me, too. It's a growing pain of cue making, but a necessary evil. When you see a cue from across the room and immediately know it's quality, that's because of the finish. If a guy has his finish down, every cue looks like a million bucks. It's where the rubber meets the road, where the maker's skill is obvious. It's a PIA but it makes a huge difference in how the maker is perceived.

You & I both know a newer maker who went the route of having somebody else finish his cues.......until he didn't. The cues looked great, finish was fine & shiny & clean. People seen the cues & thought the guy had promise, so they began ordering. However, when he finally began finishing cues himself, it looked terrible. I know of three of those cues that should never have left the shop. He went from producing cues that had a mirror finish to sending out cues with blatant, in your face flaws. How should the buyers feel when they see a beautiful cue, order one for themselves, and when it arrives it's atrocious? The finishes the maker did himself revealed that he has very low attention to detail, which in turn brings to question what else did he screw up on that you cannot see? That's what a finish is. It's where the world sees the cue & judges the maker's skill level. For a $300 cue bought by an APA 3 weekend warrior, it's probably not a big deal because they won't care. But once you hit $1000+, the buying market is significantly smaller and infinitely better informed. If you want to fish in that pond, you can neither send out flawed finish nor outsource the finish. Those buyers want the work done by you, and done correctly.

So I guess it's all about objectives. If JC wants to fish for minnows, outsourcing is fine. If he wants to grow into a more substantial market, he's gonna have to take time to perfect his finish, without the stress of meeting customer obligations.
 

qbilder

slower than snails
Silver Member
These are all good points, thank you for them.

Mistakes by my employees in my European auto repair business that cost me more than i sold this cue for are not that uncommon so I do have some experience in handling problems.

If I had more time this summer I would have worked it out myself but I just have stuff I need to do right now.

JC


I'm genuinely sorry if it seems I'm beating up on you. I'm not. You're obviously a conscientious guy with some salt. That's a good trait to have, and a solid sign that you'll be finding success. The fact that you handled the situation as you did, and then came to a public forum for discussion, tells me that you're aiming for something far beyond your local neighborhood cue guy. You got ambitions. I sincerely wish you nothing but the best, and my posts in this thread are meant for you alone. Those "what ifs" will happen. I promise that. As you progress in skill, your cues will be noticed by a buying market that most who post on this forum never see. Whether you're ready for it or not, serious money buyers will begin visiting your shop. They'll want to see how you do things, and will want to push your envelope. When this begins happening, you'll do well to show them what they came to see. Take my words for what they're worth, nothing but ramblings of some dude on the internet. But remember them in coming years & then tell me how wrong I was......or wasn't.
 
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thoffen

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Yes, finding that you lack the skills to complete a customer's order to your satisfaction in the time allowed is a mistake. But I seriously doubt any cuemaker can go back in time and never have found themselves in this situation. Many have done things like fail to communicate, make excuses, send work they know isn't right, etc. Those are far worse mistakes.

Building a reputation is part producing great quality work and part being accountable for that work. Everyone wants to hit the nail on the head 100% with the quality, and there are some makers with clear rough edges in their personality which are trumped by the quality, but most aren't capable of advancing without a healthy dose of both.

To Eric's point, you might end up being responsible for defects in this cue later on. If I were in those shoes, I'd refinish it at my expense at that time.
 
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JC

Coos Cues
I'm genuinely sorry if it seems I'm beating up on you. I'm not. You're obviously a conscientious guy with some salt. That's a good trait to have, and a solid sign that you'll be finding success. The fact that you handled the situation as you did, and then came to a public forum for discussion, tells me that you're aiming for something far beyond your local neighborhood cue guy. You got ambitions. I sincerely wish you nothing but the best, and my posts in this thread are meant for you alone. Those "what ifs" will happen. I promise that. As you progress in skill, your cues will be noticed by a buying market that most who post on this forum never see. Whether you're ready for it or not, serious money buyers will begin visiting your shop. They'll want to see how you do things, and will want to push your envelope. When this begins happening, you'll do well to show them what they came to see. Take my words for what they're worth, nothing but ramblings of some dude on the internet. But remember them in coming years & then tell me how wrong I was......or wasn't.

Words of wisdom and thank you. I realized and readily admitted I got ahead of my skis on this one. Being a fast learner not only technically but business wise it won't happen again. I felt I had to inform my buyer that I didn't do the finish for what I guess you could call damage control. Even if there is no damage to speak of today. Hope that makes sense.

I agree with your other post to Joey about how critical the finish is and being able to control and duplicate it. I'll get there, no doubt in my mind. Probably sooner than later. Just got to get this damned house built!

Have a great day!

JC
 

qbilder

slower than snails
Silver Member
I seriously doubt any cuemaker can go back in time and never have found themselves in this situation.

I have an entire laundry list of screw-ups & wrongs, more than I like to admit. That's why a lot of makers won't ridicule or dog on other makers. We all share in our own faults and understand how bad it hurts.
 

BarenbruggeCues

Unregistered User
Silver Member
I have an entire laundry list of screw-ups & wrongs, more than I like to admit. That's why a lot of makers won't ridicule or dog on other makers. We all share in our own faults and understand how bad it hurts.

Every time someone comes in and sees my buckets full they always want to buy something out of them!?? I tell them that's my retirement fund! :cool:

If you're not making mistakes you're not learning. Best advice given is learn how to do EVERY aspect from picking wood to handing the finished product over to your customer. I used to make my own joint pins. It's a waste of my valued time now....but I know what a good joint pin looks like and what it takes to make one.
I feel I perfected a few different finish types over my time and like everything else in building cues you have to deal with the curve ball and sometimes it's no fun but you'll appreciate it that much more when you can say you've got it down!
 

JoeyInCali

Maker of Joey Bautista Cues
Silver Member
Me, too. It's a growing pain of cue making, but a necessary evil. When you see a cue from across the room and immediately know it's quality, that's because of the finish. If a guy has his finish down, every cue looks like a million bucks. It's where the rubber meets the road, where the maker's skill is obvious. It's a PIA but it makes a huge difference in how the maker is perceived.

You & I both know a newer maker who went the route of having somebody else finish his cues.......until he didn't. The cues looked great, finish was fine & shiny & clean. People seen the cues & thought the guy had promise, so they began ordering. However, when he finally began finishing cues himself, it looked terrible. I know of three of those cues that should never have left the shop. He went from producing cues that had a mirror finish to sending out cues with blatant, in your face flaws. How should the buyers feel when they see a beautiful cue, order one for themselves, and when it arrives it's atrocious? The finishes the maker did himself revealed that he has very low attention to detail, which in turn brings to question what else did he screw up on that you cannot see? That's what a finish is. It's where the world sees the cue & judges the maker's skill level. For a $300 cue bought by an APA 3 weekend warrior, it's probably not a big deal because they won't care. But once you hit $1000+, the buying market is significantly smaller and infinitely better informed. If you want to fish in that pond, you can neither send out flawed finish nor outsource the finish. Those buyers want the work done by you, and done correctly.

So I guess it's all about objectives. If JC wants to fish for minnows, outsourcing is fine. If he wants to grow into a more substantial market, he's gonna have to take time to perfect his finish, without the stress of meeting customer obligations.

Great point.

I haven't seen Blowblow's cues of late.

JC, get a spray booth, water filter and a nice gun. :p
 
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accdealer

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
you'd be shocked at how many reputable cuemakers use scot sherbine to finish their cues.


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