Taiwan TOI

[CJ Wiley]

Pool is a "feel game," so train yourself using TOI and allow the new window to open.

CJ....do you recommend a certain consistent 'crispness' of the shot to create these angles and cb 'float'?

How crisp? 3 diamond distance 'stop shot' speed...for example????


Or does distance dictate the shot speed for different distances? If the speed varies, does the object ball target vary too, since the cb will deflect differently with various speeds????

thanks

It's important to use your higher shot speed and use TOI on EVERY shot for 3 straight hours. Try to play position like you normally do, just MAKE yourself cue the ball to the inside to do it.

I could write thousands of words and it won't equal three hours at the table. The TOI and most other systems MUST be experienced, they can't be "learned" from reading.

Pool is a "feel game," so train yourself using TOI and allow the new window of knowledge to open for you. There's no other way than practice, and experimentation.

 

[HelloBaby-]

This is not correct, when using TOO or TOI you shouldn't use a "long follow through" - this is a misconception. A long, smooth stroke is fine for "follow shots," but not for your typical stop, draw or "floating shot" (floating is a sign of a player using TOI)

Watch this video of Mike Sigel and I and you'll see that neither one of us is using a long, smooth, follow through. We use an accelerated hit, the "follow through" is a result of reaching maximum speed precisely at cue ball impact.

CLICK HERE FOR THE FREE VIDEO EXAMPLE

I didn't say what I stated is the only way to achieve that motion. your way can also work as mine. and mine is not mine actually, that's what I learned from the Taiwanese.

And certainly you didn't read my previous post where I stated "ending with wrist acceleration". If you still claim this way play to achieve the flowing cue ball is not correct, so how do you explain the Taiwanese stroke ?

I strongly believe that we shouldn't use one technique but we should master all (easy to say, hard to achieve), the taiwaneses sometimes also use short-acceleration type of stroke and even TOI. It depends on what you want to do with the CB. Floating or flowing CB does not have anything to do with the spin you put on the CB, you can either use inside outside or no spin yet still have the floating CB.

Best,

 

[Mikjary]

Can you (or anyone else) post time stamps of individual shots that clearly show the use of TOI? Thanks.

Yes, I will try on the 4 pack. He's playing it like CJ, does. CJ's first alignment is for TOI and he adjusts for a center or outside spin shot.

The other shooter uses TOI, but not as his go to technique. He shoots with inside, outside and center ball. He does hit a couple of TOI style shots.

I'm at work, so it won't happen until tonight. If someone hasn't done it yet, I will be glad to do it for you and the discussion.

Best,
Mike

 

[HelloBaby-]

I wonder if their no spin game comes from the fact that a lot of their pro tables setups play very fast so if you add spin to the shot you will be way out of line.

I know every time the US players head overseas and play on that Andy cloth they say it plays like it's ice, but we have a ton of layers that like to spin the cueball even if they don't totall have to, often to get just another few % better shot. That could cause them fits on the slippery fast tables.

Talking about the fast cloth, I confirm that the Andy cloth is very fast.
And you are correct using the word "spin". Try to hold the cue ball by flowing it with just low center, you will be surprise how well you can hold it. Then if you want the CB go to a specific place for position, then you add spin on it with the same stroke, whether it's inside or outside. There are more advanced technique to to use spin to throw the OB and hold the CB, it's the next step to discover with this very same technique.
I also agree that almost all pro like to spin the CB, but what make a trademark for the Taiwaneses is how they play with no spin. Ask Jay Helfert how Yang Chin Shun plays, he will tell you the hard-to-believe truth. And yes Yang Chin Shun is the absolute pool idol over there, the one popularize SW cue and also that playing style to other Taiwaneses. I say it again, they can use spin as good as anybody, just their style to prefer the center ball when they can.

 

[CJ Wiley]

When a shot is struck using outside, it will amplify the after-contact spin.

I didn't say what I stated is the only way to achieve that motion. your way can also work as mine. and mine is not mine actually, that's what I learned from the Taiwanese.

And certainly you didn't read my previous post where I stated "ending with wrist acceleration". If you still claim this way play to achieve the flowing cue ball is not correct, so how do you explain the Taiwanese stroke ?

I strongly believe that we shouldn't use one technique but we should master all (easy to say, hard to achieve), the taiwaneses sometimes also use short-acceleration type of stroke and even TOI. It depends on what you want to do with the CB. Floating or flowing CB does not have anything to do with the spin you put on the CB, you can either use inside outside or no spin yet still have the floating CB.

Best,

I've found the only way to stop after-contact spin is to counter it with TOI.

When a shot is struck using outside, it will amplify the after-contact spin.

I'm in no way trying to convince you to change what you're doing now, if it works you should continue to do it. The suggestions above are only from my personal experience.

 

[HawaiianEye]

I've found the only way to stop after-contact spin is to counter it with TOI.

When a shot is struck using outside, it will amplify the after-contact spin.

You and I are on the same wave length.

 

[Mikjary]

Unless you use TOI as a technique and know it, it is foreign and not easily distinguishable from regular play. I know this because I didn't understand this and have learned to use it over the last year or two.

CJ did not develop the technique, but has identified it and refined it for himself and others. He let the cat out of the bag for many here on these forums. I realized his method of inside cueing was different than any other technique I'd ever heard about in this game.

I lived it years ago. The top players would hit cue balls that reacted differently off of the rails and floated around the table. Not just stun shots that we all knew about. We called it the stroke where the ball has no spin. We watched it happen in front of us, but didn't figure it out.

I'm not talking about a bunch of nits sitting around talking about drawing the rock. I talked to top pros about it before and after I knew about it. They didn't know it either. I've even demonstrated it to them (a HOF player didn't know about it).

Years ago nobody fed the fish. Now it's happening more often and TOI is one of those hidden techniques that's surfaced after being under the radar for years.

Best,
Mike

 

[HelloBaby-]

I've found the only way to stop after-contact spin is to counter it with TOI.

When a shot is struck using outside, it will amplify the after-contact spin.

I'm in no way trying to convince you to change what you're doing now, if it works you should continue to do it. The suggestions above are only from my personal experience.

Again, it depends on what angle you have and if you want to stop the contact spin. TOI definitely work in some cases, as you stated, to stop the after-contact spin. I also believe all pros including the taiwaneses use TOI for some shot. My point is TOI is not taiwaneses' primary choice if they can choose what technique to use. it's nothing to do with TOI is not good or something, TOI is definitely good for some type of shots,just as TOO, TOC, Slow rolling the CB,etc.
You, CJ, like to use TOI
Mike Sigel likes to use TOO
Alex Pagulayan stated that he didn't have a preference, for him it totally depends on the shot.
and the taiwaneses prefer the no-spin.
Now it's a preference for each player to pick one technique they prefer to use. But don't forget that it's just personal preference.
Best,
Kevin.

 

[HawaiianEye]

Again, it depends on what angle you have and if you want to stop the contact spin. TOI definitely work in some cases, as you stated, to stop the after-contact spin. I also believe all pros including the taiwaneses use TOI for some shot. My point is TOI is not taiwaneses' primary choice if they can choose what technique to use. it's nothing to do with TOI is not good or something, TOI is definitely good for some type of shots,just as TOO, TOC, Slow rolling the CB,etc.
You, CJ, like to use TOI
Mike Sigel likes to use TOO
Alex Pagulayan stated that he didn't have a preference, for him it totally depends on the shot.
and the taiwaneses prefer the no-spin.
Now it's a preference for each player to pick one technique they prefer to use. But don't forget that it's just personal preference.
Best,
Kevin.

I think EVERYONE is arguing the SAME thing. The outcome is the SAME. It isn't the exact English or lack of English that is put into every shot, it is the SYSTEM or STYLE of playing. Whether you FLOAT the cue ball with English, no English, or with a magic carpet....floating the cue ball is the SAME.

TOI is a STYLE or SYSTEM that allows you to FLOAT the cue ball. It is a SYSTEM and NOT just one shot.

That is where everyone keeps confusing TOI with "what kind of English is he using?".

 

[HelloBaby-]

I think EVERYONE is arguing the SAME thing. The outcome is the SAME. It isn't the exact English or lack of English that is put into every shot, it is the SYSTEM or STYLE of playing. Whether you FLOAT the cue ball with English, no English, or with a magic carpet....floating the cue ball is the SAME.
TOI is a STYLE or SYSTEM that allows you to FLOAT the cue ball. It is a SYSTEM and NOT just one shot.
That is where everyone keeps confusing TOI with "what kind of English is he using?".

You state the truth. But if TOI also includes floating (flowing) the CB with outside and no-spin, then call it Floating CB. It makes more sense. Personally I believe CJ's focus is on TOI.
Btw, I have to give credits to CJ for that approach and for the willing to popularize such a good technique. One-at-a-time is definitely the way to teach someone in this matter. No surprise if his next steps are TOO or/and TOC.
Best,

 

[CJ Wiley]

it's easy to make things complex, and challenging to to make the complex (pool) simp

You state the truth. But if TOI also includes floating (flowing) the CB with outside and no-spin, then call it Floating CB. It makes more sense. Personally I believe CJ's focus is on TOI.
Btw, I have to give credits to CJ for that approach and for the willing to popularize such a good technique. One-at-a-time is definitely the way to teach someone in this matter. No surprise if his next steps are TOO or/and TOC.
Best,

I can use any type of system and play pretty well, however to make your statement you obviously havn't seen the TOI DVD. I can't do this technique with outside or center.

Let's say I just use what the shot requires and my average tip targets are

High Left
High right
High center
Middle left
Middle right
Middle center
Low left
Low right
Low center

That's 9 tip targets and each one will have a different effect on spin, deflection (speed and humidity is a factor too)

Using TOI I use:

TOI High
TOI Center
TOI Low

This is 3 tip targets and each one deflects the cue ball the {virtually} same way, there is very little spin and if my speed is consistent all three react very similarly.

I use a third the amount of tip targets, and the cue ball reacts virtually the same. If consistency means doing the same thing over and over, which one is better?

From experience, over time, the TOI will dominate simply because you're hitting the cue ball the same and the movement is more predictable because the cue ball moves the same way every time.

Would you rather master one shot or be "the jack of all shots". Using TOI, I can still pivot slightly to center, or outside if I need to change an angle off the rail, throw a ball, or curve the cue ball.

This example may be too simple, - it's easy to make things complex, and challenging to to make the complex (pool) simple.

 

[ENGLISH!]

I am just saying this for reference & to help make sure that there is this understanding.

When a traveling sphere collides with a stationary sphere on any angle that is not head on, both balls will exit the collision with an outside of the angle rotation. It does not matter if the traveling ball is sliding, spinning backwards, or rolling or 'spinning' forward. That's physics.

The only way to counter, offset, overcome, negate that is to have an equal amount of inside rotation on the traveling ball.

I think that is at times lost in discussion because we are focused on the net effect.

A sliding stun shot will pick up an outside rotation unless it also has that bit or 'touch' of inside rotation to offset what would be picked up from the collision.

Just food for thought.

PS Mike Segel never consciously considered the squirt/swerve relationship when playing with outside spin. The bit of outside offsets the collision induced throw of the object ball & can counter the pickup of the outside spin on the object ball, while inside spin on the cue ball would enhance both the net effect by adding to the collision induced throw & the spin.

PSS What makes both work is the difference in the initial alignment. It's sort of like cheating to the middle of the pocket from different directions, at least IMO.

 

[CJ Wiley]

I am just saying this for reference & to help make sure that there is this understanding.

When a traveling sphere collides with a stationary sphere on any angle that is not head on, both balls will exit the collision with an outside of the angle rotation. It does not matter if the traveling ball is sliding, spinning backwards, or rolling or 'spinning' forward. That's physics.

The only way to counter, offset, overcome, negate that is to have an equal amount of inside rotation on the traveling ball.

I think that is at times lost in discussion because we are focused on the net effect.

A sliding stun shot will pick up an outside rotation unless it also has that bit or 'touch' of inside rotation to offset what would be picked up from the collision.

Just food for thought.

Did you read post #45?

 

[ps611846]

Hi Mike,

My assessment came from 1. Watching their alignment, which is a little subjective as perspective is not ideal and 2. From watching how the CB came off the rails, which is pretty objective as it tells the spin of the CB most times, when view of such is clear.

I think I'm familiar with the type of stroke you mention. I've referred to it as reverse swipe, which is aligning, say to the left, swiping right but still contacting the CB left of center, while the cue tracks a path contrary to what is expected.

This has an effect, but some recent testing I've done showed the effect as far less than I'd assumed on most shots, especially firm shots.

Cheers,
Colin

Hello Colin !!!!
I think his name is Rick !!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[ENGLISH!]

Did you read post #45?

You said it in far less words. Sometimes less is more & sometimes more is less.:wink:

Some seem to forget that natural 'science' if they ever really ever considered it. That outside rotation results in what I call 'drift'.

 

[HelloBaby-]

I can use any type of system and play pretty well, however to make your statement you obviously havn't seen the TOI DVD. I can't do this technique with outside or center.

Let's say I just use what the shot requires and my average tip targets are

High Left
High right
High center
Middle left
Middle right
Middle center
Low left
Low right
Low center

That's 9 tip targets and each one will have a different effect on spin, deflection (speed and humidity is a factor too)

Using TOI I use:

TOI High
TOI Center
TOI Low

This is 3 tip targets and each one deflects the cue ball the {virtually} same way, there is very little spin and if my speed is consistent all three react very similarly.

I use a third the amount of tip targets, and the cue ball reacts virtually the same. If consistency means doing the same thing over and over, which one is better?

From experience, over time, the TOI will dominate simply because you're hitting the cue ball the same and the movement is more predictable because the cue ball moves the same way every time.

Would you rather master one shot or be "the jack of all shots". Using TOI, I can still pivot slightly to center, or outside if I need to change an angle off the rail, throw a ball, or curve the cue ball.

This example may be too simple, - it's easy to make things complex, and challenging to to make the complex (pool) simple.

You say it again. it's your preference.
It works for you using 3 inside tip positions as it works for mike sigel using outside or Alex Pagulayan using whatever he needed.
I also agree with you that going with one technique at a time is the best way to progress, it just happens that I use outside and center more ofter than inside, inside english works best for me when I need to hold the cb with a thin cut. But it's me.
I'm just an amateur who love the game. And the whole thread we have been talking about world class taiwaneses pro and what they use. I did not, at any point, degrade the usefulness of TOI. But the truth is TOI is only one out of many techniques those monsters use, and it's not their preference.
Now if the thread talks about how you, CJ, play. Then of course I will not come any give these comments because no doubt that you use TOI as your primary choice of technique.
Best,

 

[CJ Wiley]

To make break-throughs we must be willing to practice what we don't normally do

You say it again. it's your preference.
It works for you using 3 inside tip positions as it works for mike sigel using outside or Alex Pagulayan using whatever he needed.
I also agree with you that going with one technique at a time is the best way to progress, it just happens that I use outside and center more ofter than inside, inside english works best for me when I need to hold the cb with a thin cut. But it's me.
I'm just an amateur who love the game. And the whole thread we have been talking about world class taiwaneses pro and what they use. I did not, at any point, degrade the usefulness of TOI. But the truth is TOI is only one out of many techniques those monsters use, and it's not their preference.
Now if the thread talks about how you, CJ, play. Then of course I will not come any give these comments because no doubt that you use TOI as your primary choice of technique.
Best,

TOI is not "inside english," your tip is over too far if you're applying english.

When a player favors center and outside it would benefit them to explore the "inside dimension," they never know what they may find.....until the light is turned on. :idea2:

I also practice these things myself.

For 20 minutes I'll ONLY shoot severe spin shots - for 20 minutes I'll play with my hand at the balance point, and compact my stroke - for 20 minutes I'll play with my head 24 inches higher over the ball than normal (etc.).

To make break-throughs we must be willing to practice what we don't normally do, and in many cases exaggerating your weaknesses will bring quicker results.

From my experience, if we're not willing to do this, our opponent probably is. Play Well, and the game will be your teacher.

 

[West Point 1987]

I had a road player trounce me about 25 years ago, then when I asked him how he controlled the CB so well and how his firm hit seemed to react so softly, he offered to show me his "secret"...he described it as "playing inside the angle", "tightening the angle", etc. To me it just looked like inside English and I discounted it as him either not knowing how to explain it, making it up or just not really understanding what he really did. I shrugged my shoulders and ignored it.

Fast forward to about 2 1/2 years ago, CJ lays it out here on AZB, I see a video of him beating Mizerak with it, and the CB doing exactly what the roadplayer all those years ago did. I decided to give it a really good try, even though intuitively I didn't believe it. After about an hour and thirty minutes, the light came on and I didn't miss a shot for almost an hour and kept good position with just draw, center or follow. It was nuts, I couldn't believe it, but it really does work. It takes quite a while to really make this technique yours, but until you actually give it a good try, you'll continue to underestimate or misunderstand it. Once you really see it for yourself, you'll be able to see other players doing it, too, and you'll see a whole new dimension to this game you didn't really know about. To all you naysayers and critics, I was with you up until I really gave this a try.

 

[CJ Wiley]

to see this match please visit Jay's web site, he has the only videos in existence

I had a road player trounce me about 25 years ago, then when I asked him how he controlled the CB so well and how his firm hit seemed to react so softly, he offered to show me his "secret"...he described it as "playing inside the angle", "tightening the angle", etc. To me it just looked like inside English and I discounted it as him either not knowing how to explain it, making it up or just not really understanding what he really did. I shrugged my shoulders and ignored it.

Fast forward to about 2 1/2 years ago, CJ lays it out here on AZB, I see a video of him beating Mizerak with it, and the CB doing exactly what the roadplayer all those years ago did. I decided to give it a really good try, even though intuitively I didn't believe it. After about an hour and thirty minutes, the light came on and I didn't miss a shot for almost an hour and kept good position with just draw, center or follow. It was nuts, I couldn't believe it, but it really does work. It takes quite a while to really make this technique yours, but until you actually give it a good try, you'll continue to underestimate or misunderstand it. Once you really see it for yourself, you'll be able to see other players doing it, too, and you'll see a whole new dimension to this game you didn't really know about. To all you naysayers and critics, I was with you up until I really gave this a try.

Jay Helfert sent me a copy of a match I played on ESPN with Earl Strickland (my first ESPN match, I think). I was nervous watching it, because I didn't even remember being there - I presumed my game suffered from the TV pressure.

This was completely untrue, it's one of the best matches I've seen. The TOI was very visible in the game, and it almost "blew Earl off the court". I won't tell how it ended.

Thanks, Jay, if anyone wants to see this match please visit Jay's web site, he has some of the only videos in existence.

 

[HelloBaby-]

TOI is not "inside english," your tip is over too far if you're applying english.
When a player favors center and outside it would benefit them to explore the "inside dimension," they never know what they may find.....until the light is turned on. :idea2:
I also practice these things myself.
For 20 minutes I'll ONLY shoot severe spin shots - for 20 minutes I'll play with my hand at the balance point, and compact my stroke - for 20 minutes I'll play with my head 24 inches higher over the ball than normal (etc.).
To make break-throughs we must be willing to practice what we don't normally do, and in many cases exaggerating your weaknesses will bring quicker results.
From my experience, if we're not willing to do this, our opponent probably is. Play Well, and the game will be your teacher.

Why do you keep ignoring the main topic of this thread and keep promoting your technique ? Nobody said anything about your technique is good or bad here, we only discussing what taiwaneses pros use, not what is better of worse.
If you want to promote your technique then resurrect one of your old threads or start a new one.
Best,