The era of the "poke-stroke"

SmoothStroke

Swim for the win.
Silver Member
The camera work was perfect for cue delivery diagnosis. I have been saying for quite some time about the teaching of stroke technique (Years) with a lot of negative feedback.

If you ask Mika what he has worked on in the past few years he may or not tell you, but it is his backhand motion. More of the pump stroke, rolling the cue over, adjusting for max delivery with less work, opposed to the traditional teaching of pendulum stroke and freeze theory.

You may have also noticed many players pulling the cue off line on the last backstroke then delivering exactly where they were aiming. Some are easy to see and some are less noticeable. This all goes against traditional instruction, yet look at the results. Is it a coincidence the majority of players cue this way? Others are also working on the same technique as they can see it is more natural and less forced. And no they are not using an aiming system because they are cueing in that fashion.

There is no reason to pull back 12 to 15 inches to delivery, there never was. If you strike the cue ball properly on a slow table it will travel. Maybe you need more cue speed (slightly) maybe you need to hit into the axis line more cleanly and on target. The long delivery stroke has hurt Shane quite a few times on the biggest stage.

You may have also noticed very few center ball hits, even when it appeared a center ball hit was necessary. Center ball is almost a myth. It's easier to cue just off center, finding center and keeping a stiff arm to stay in center is just too much work. Too forced, nothing natural. There are rare occasions you must hit dead center.

I have seen instructors do video analysis of the swing arm for hours; the same result is the swing arm is delivering out of line. The old Einstein Theory…Insanity…repeating the same mistake and expecting different results. I have seen those same students' years later with the same results. Let me turn you into a robot and maybe this theory will be more consistent. I compare it to fixing a glass window, Give me a hammer, I can fix it.

Many have said…they make it look so easy, so natural….well yes they do, because they have learned to use the natural and not be a robot. Robots are machines. They don’t have ligaments, muscles, blood flow, feel pressure.

Use the natural; learn to not only finish the stroke but COMPLETE IT, there is a difference.
 

NitPicker

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I learned how to play on an old 10 footer with directional cloth. It was at the boys and girls club in my town. I went there everyday for a couple summers and while I didn't develop a strong stroke, I did develop a straight one by having to shoot from one end of the table to the other all the time. When cloth started getting faster, I was older and thought at first that's why I could get more action from the cue ball. But eventually would come to realize the difference in modern cloth. While I do enjoy the ease of today's tables, I also kind of miss those old ones that were slow as molasses.
 

pooler

Europe - TD, TL & Ref
Silver Member
Could the OP provide, for starters, a clear definition of a "poke-stroke" ???

Also:
where is "TheThaiger" when you need him :)
 

West Point 1987

On the Hill, Out of Gas
Silver Member
I'll never forget the first time I ever played on Simonis 860...it was relatively late in the game, like '92 or '93...in Seattle at the billiard room Dan Louie owned or played in (don't remember which) at a tournament. To me if felt like I was playing on ice, just touch the CB and you'd hit two rails. I'm still trying to adjust...:embarrassed2:
 

JAM

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Great example. When I think of Allen Hopkins, I always heard it described as "punch stroke" because poking can't really describe what he does. to get the action he gets, he is punching for sure. And you are correct, it works for him quite well.

Grady Mathews had a stroke like that to. It always amazed me to see him stroke it one time and then shoot. :grin-square:

I guess, as the saying goes, different strokes for different folks! :p
 

hang-the-9

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Having watched the World Cup of Pool and other recent pool events, I have come to the realization that this is indeed the era of the poke-stroke. Sure there are dinosaurs like Earl and anomalies like Shane, but apart from them almost everyone pokes at the ball. I believe this is due to the fact that the cloth used nowadays is very fast (this happened 20-30 years ago) and the rails are getting faster (more recent development) along with the pockets getting ever tighter. The huge, long and smooth strokes of the Mizeraks and the Halls are now extinct, as they are no longer needed, and indeed would be a disadvantage. There is simply no point in stroking the ball anymore and even players who have big strokes are now poking the ball more and more, shortening their stroke and seemingly limiting their follow through.

I for one feel that the rails nowadays are too fast. I know that this sounds hopelessly conservative coming from someone relatively young (at least not an old fart). Recently a guy complained that the tables at our poolhall (Gold Crown with new Simonis and cushions) were too slow! don't know wether to laugh or cry about this, but this what it has come to.After watching modern pool clips, watch some old clips and it looks like the rails are completely dead and they are playing on shag carpet, even when the conditions were brand new. I What do you guys think, is there such a thing as cushions that are too fast? What about the cloth?

I think you actually have it backwards, I'd say up till about the 70s the "poke" stoke was a lot more common where now you see a lot more flowing strokes with longer bridges and follow throughs. I think due to the fact that the main game used to be straight pool which did not need as much cueball travel as 9 ball does, causing playrs to develop a short punch stoke to keep the cueball from traveling far.
 

West Point 1987

On the Hill, Out of Gas
Silver Member
I think you actually have it backwards, I'd say up till about the 70s the "poke" stoke was a lot more common where now you see a lot more flowing strokes with longer bridges and follow throughs. I think due to the fact that the main game used to be straight pool which did not need as much cueball travel as 9 ball does, causing playrs to develop a short punch stoke to keep the cueball from traveling far.

I'm with you on this one...Even the great "strokers" like Buddy Hall and Steve Mizerak had short bridges...you can only pull it back so far when your bridge is 8 inches or shorter. They did pull it back and follow through, though, whereas Allen Hopkins and Tommy Kennedy seem to just push through with little or no draw back. When Efren first exploded on the scene, everyone wondered at his long bridge and long stroke...as well as the sea-saw action he had when he was measuring the shot. Rempe and Mizerak had some sea-saw action too, mainly because they gripped a little forward of 90 degrees, which made the tip go up and down. I think LD shafts have made longer bridges a little more reliable, but I don't see too much difference in the "stroke versus poke" quotient. What I don't see anymore and miss is the slip stroke. Now that was a stroke!
 

JoeyInCali

Maker of Joey Bautista Cues
Silver Member
If Poke Stroke is so bad, how come Allen Hopkins won a US Open 9-ball and straight pool tourneys during the nappy cloth era ????:grin:
 

hang-the-9

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Indeed...and he and Tommy Kennedy played very well in the Simonis Era, too. :smile:

Oh, god, Tommy has what is possibly the worst stoke in pro pool. Heck, I'd yell at a C player is he was shooting like that LOL. A few exceptoins do not make for a rule though, just because there are a few good players that can play with a non-traditional stoke does not mean anyone should try to emulate them as the "correct" way to play.

I'd never tell anyone "go watch Keith and Bustie play and try to shoot like they do".
 

eddie0776

Bishop Cues
Silver Member
Paul Turner also had a "punch stroke" and he sure could shoot no matter what table he was on.
 

pooler

Europe - TD, TL & Ref
Silver Member
I would like to point out that I do not feel that the players today are "worse" than the big strokers of yesteryear, just that changes in equipment is forcing a change in style that, with all the big strokers nearing retirement or dead, is about to become permanent. I don't want this to become a pxxxxxg match between peoples favourite players, nor do I want to offend anyone. I just want a debate on the change is all.

The ancient Greeks would dedicate a lifetime to provide a clear definition of something. Since we don't have a lot of time here are examples of people poking:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=if8_dgq9KYc
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZH1tuvo0zXc
Li is an example of poking
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uzuM5bgQy44
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SKXU-QKcYtY


Stroking (watch Melling):
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HW2ANQkGifs&list=PL9h0p5w5Gmu-CwyW-l_Q3zzrgFyL3tdF-&index=3
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T8vzkWtdP8g

Phillipino style loop stroking:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mm6R-MeUJUk
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MMKH7xHqYWA
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KrBrGSesp2g

Stroke vs. poke:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CB2szo2JQcY
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6SfnfsLN4iA
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LV6uoT0YMAY
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E8Fi7dpjqUg

Straightpool_99

First of all, I wanted to thank you for your effort to provide some examples to support your OP thesis; however, I find these examples of yours quite contradictory.
Not getting too much into details - I would rather agree with posts 6/7/8/12/15 and especially 28/29.
Are you sure you comprehend this correctly? Without any bias ?
What is, for you, the main characterictic/feature of a "poke-stroke" ?
Get into their, ancient Greeks, shoes just for a short while :)
 
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The Renfro

Outsville.com
Silver Member
Here ya go... Neither of them got paid but Alex got within about 4-5 inches


strokeshot.jpg
 
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