The Greatest Myth in Billiards' History - The Bad Stroke!

[JohnnyP]

Colin: It's amazing how much better I shoot once my eyes are in the correct position.

I think that's what "getting in stroke" is all about.

I started hearing about the pivot point a few years ago, and thought "what a band aid, real players do it by feel".

One day I decided to check it out, and found the pivot point of my cue is about 10". OMG, my new bridge length!! Aim and pivot, baby.

Once my eye is dialed in with my stroking hand and am using the correct bridge length, I begin to see the effects of swerve and throw on the long straight in shots where I want to go forward with high inside. I keep hitting the ball too thick. Now I know why.

 

[Colin Colenso]

Seems your moron file is full already. Why do you need it diagrammed, do you have trouble reading? And, why do you say it is moronic? You stated that as long as your bridge is in the proper place, the stroke doesn't matter. I simply gave you a test to prove that your claim is false.

Try the test. If you are aligned the same each time, the only thing left is your stroke. You say it doesn't matter. Prove it. Or, you can just choose to ignore any proof and call anyone that says you are wrong a moron. You made the statement, back it up.

I do that everyday Neil, and I know which stroke parameters effect the final line of shot.

Doesn't mean I can make any shot, such as a 70 degree cut over 4 foot OB to pocket with CB 3 feet away.

btw: Moron is my 3rd highest category of post filing, so order the pin for the badge that's coming your way. :thumbup:

Just kidding

Colin

 

[cleary]

I don't get to play pool very often. When I go through spurts of playing a few times a week, Im stroking the ball good. Even shots I aim a little off, find their way in the pocket. I'm following through, hitting the cueball where I wanted to and my timing is good. When I take three weeks off, those same shots don't fall. I rush my stroke and poke the cueball too often.

I think the stroke has a ton to do with making the ball. Most people grew up playing or have played so many hours that the stroke is natural. I started in my 20s and never went through a period of playing a lot so my stroke is all over the place when I'm not playing often. So, I think you're wrong. Thanks.

 

[Neil]

I do that everyday Neil, and I know which stroke parameters effect the final line of shot.

Doesn't mean I can make any shot, such as a 70 degree cut over 4 foot OB to pocket with CB 3 feet away.

btw: Moron is my 3rd highest category of post filing, so order the pin for the badge that's coming your way. :thumbup:

Just kidding

Colin

You are slipping already Colin...which is it, stroke doesn't matter, or it does matter??

 

[Colin Colenso]

Colin: It's amazing how much better I shoot once my eyes are in the correct position.

I think that's what "getting in stroke" is all about.

I started hearing about the pivot point a few years ago, and thought "what a band aid, real players do it by feel".

One day I decided to check it out, and found the pivot point of my cue is about 10". OMG, my new bridge length!! Aim and pivot, baby.

Once my eye is dialed in with my stroking hand and am using the correct bridge length, I begin to see the effects of swerve and throw on the long straight in shots where I want to go forward with high inside. I keep hitting the ball too thick. Now I know why.

Johnny,
Your post resonates with me.

Learning the pivot point, then effective pivot point (accounting for swerve) and throw effects began to convince me that stroking was more an issue of speed control and positional control, and that it had little to do with most pots, unless they were dependent on swerve.

I think the concept is so off-base to most that they don't get how stroking purity is way subservient to bridge positioning for most potting requirements. For position, it's crucial, but that's not the issue here.

 

[sheffield6]

Interesting topic, my opinion is bad alignment causes a bad stroke, most of the time.

 

[Colin Colenso]

You are slipping already Colin...which is it, stroke doesn't matter, or it does matter??

From the first post, Mr. Accuse People of Things!

IMHO, stroke is the bogey man excuse for bad alignment on 90+% of occasions.

That means, less than 10% of complaints are actually due to stroke. So of course it matters.

You want to hang around trying to score points, proving yourself more of a moron or actually use your great insight about how stroking errors effect shots Neil?

btw: How did you go on my 24 Stroke Shots with a pendulum stroke? I'd pay to see that video! Made the first shot yet? Took me 1.5 hours to make all 24! And they were all conceptual, had never practiced them.

 

[Colin Colenso]

Interesting topic, my opinion is bad alignment causes a bad stroke, most of the time.

If only that were a common insight. You summarized it perfectly!

 

[JohnnyP]

Colin: It's very scary now using a short bridge off the rail, especially trying to spin the ball. Swerve often exceeds deflection. And no pivot point for a road map.

 

[Colin Colenso]

I don't get to play pool very often. When I go through spurts of playing a few times a week, Im stroking the ball good. Even shots I aim a little off, find their way in the pocket. I'm following through, hitting the cueball where I wanted to and my timing is good. When I take three weeks off, those same shots don't fall. I rush my stroke and poke the cueball too often.

I think the stroke has a ton to do with making the ball. Most people grew up playing or have played so many hours that the stroke is natural. I started in my 20s and never went through a period of playing a lot so my stroke is all over the place when I'm not playing often. So, I think you're wrong. Thanks.

Appreciate your feedback Cleary, and for what it's worth, I experience the same thing when away from the table for a while.

When my alignment is crap, my stroke feels crap, because my brain doesn't trust the line.

Just saying, the wet footpath may not be causing rain,... perhaps bad alignment leads to uncomfortable stroking, and it takes time at the table to start getting better alignment.

Cheers,
Colin

btw: It's not a contest. Appreciate people's general experience as well as insights from those who have tested what off center hitting and swiping actually does in terms of affecting initial alignment.

 

[FranCrimi]

I've been watching, hearing and reading players blame stroke on a multitude of errors for years. The assumption seems to be that they were aligned perfectly, but their stroke causes the miss.

I've been calling BS on this for a while, though I am aware of how certain stroking methods or tendencies can effect shot execution.

My point here is to ask what it is they think, or know, by playing and testing, that a bad stroke actually does to the shot line and induced throw on the OB.

Most who parrot stroking errors seem oblivious to the relevance of the bridge length v effective pivot point relationship and they also never seem to comment on stroke as it relates to Spin or Contact induced throw.

It's like the Bermuda Triangle of pool. What the heck do people think a stroke can do, and under what circumstances and how does this effect pocketing a ball.

It's been assumed to be obvious, but it is certainly not!

IMHO, stroke is the bogey man excuse for bad alignment on 90+% of occasions.

Opinions? Evidence? Would be happy to hear considered opinions!

Colin

I think it's both alignment and stroke are problematic with most beginning and intermediate players.

But I do agree that many place too much emphasis on stroke when they should be talking about alignment.

A poor alignment can create a problematic stroke where the player is trying to realign in mid stroke, often without even realizing it. This can create a habit that is hard to break.

I always recommend to get the alignment right first, then work on the stroke.

 

[Colin Colenso]

Colin: It's very scary now using a short bridge off the rail, especially trying to spin the ball. Swerve often exceeds deflection. And no pivot point for a road map.

That and the Chinese snooker are my least favorite shots JohnnyP.

Basically have to go back to old school guessing on those when they require side I think. i.e. Hit a lot of them and learn to guess it.

Colin

 

[BasementDweller]

I've had a light come on recently too where I decided that I really needed to work on my alignment more so than I needed to work on my stroke, but my stroke still lets me down. There's really only two ways it lets me down. The one has already been mentioned and it involves side spin. It's when you don't strike the ball with the speed that you intended to and the swerve gets you. At least on those types of shots your cue may still be online so to me those misses are due more to a lack of conviction than they are because your stroke let you down.

I blame my stroke more so on longer straight-ish type shots, where I plan on hitting center ball and end up cueing off center. I take it Colin's contention is that if you utilized the proper pivot point you could eliminate many of these types of misses. Then you wouldn't be able to blame the stroke nearly as much.

I was just talking to a teammate last night about the real benefits of playing with an LD shaft and I've toyed with the idea of going back to a traditional maple shaft for a couple of years now. It probably won't happen but I can see how having the pivot point right at your normal bridge length would help eliminate quite a few misses.

 

[xplor]

I have always admired Keith McCready* 's stroke.

 

[Colin Colenso]

I think it's both alignment and stroke are problematic with most beginning and intermediate players.

But I do agree that many place too much emphasis on stroke when they should be talking about alignment.

A poor alignment can create a problematic stroke where the player is trying to realign in mid stroke, often without even realizing it. This can create a habit that is hard to break.

I always recommend to get the alignment right first, then work on the stroke.

Good point Fran and nice to see you chiming in!

Noticed your use of mid-stroke, which I recently raised, in terms of appropriate prefixes. I was tempted to use peri-stroke, but mid-stroke, as you used it was very apt.

Cheers,
Colin

 

[Colin Colenso]

I have always admired Keith McCready* 's stroke.

It ain't boring, that's for sure!

 

[Neil]

From the first post, Mr. Accuse People of Things!


That means, less than 10% of complaints are actually due to stroke. So of course it matters.

You want to hang around trying to score points, proving yourself more of a moron or actually use your great insight about how stroking errors effect shots Neil?

btw: How did you go on my 24 Stroke Shots with a pendulum stroke? I'd pay to see that video! Made the first shot yet? Took me 1.5 hours to make all 24! And they were all conceptual, had never practiced them.

Colin, I can't believe you just went there...lol. Oh, how quickly you forget those that scored higher than you on your own pocketing test....and, you don't need to pay to see a video of shots like that with a pendulum stroke, just google Judd Trump and watch him play. (you just might learn something there.)

1. Just because YOU say it's 90-10%, doesn't mean that it is.
2. Just because a ball was pocketed, doesn't mean that you stroked it correctly, The pockets are usually pretty forgiving. Those that just use pocketing the ball as their standard will find that they will fall short in accuracy and consistency.
3. The entire game is built around precision. You will not have that precision with a faulty stroke.
4. You stated that stroke errors don't matter for pocketing, but do for position play. Well, in all the games I play, you need both to win.
5. It's entirely foolish to state that you don't need accuracy to pocket balls, then turn around and say you need accuracy for position. The two go hand in hand. You either need precision, or you don't.
6. To state that you don't need precision to pocket balls, well, don't ever try snooker or chinese eight ball.
7. Stating that you don't need precision to just pocket balls falls into the realm of amateur. Only amateurs rate their success by if the ball fell or not and nothing else matters. Consistency is all about precision. Lack of precision will result in inconsistency. Maybe that's fine in your game. It's not in mine and a lot of other people.

 

[sheffield6]

Good point Fran and nice to see you chiming in!

Noticed your use of mid-stroke, which I recently raised, in terms of appropriate prefixes. I was tempted to use peri-stroke, but mid-stroke, as you used it was very apt.

Cheers,
Colin

never be tempted to say peri-stroke, hope this helps

 

[Neil]

I've had a light come on recently too where I decided that I really needed to work on my alignment more so than I needed to work on my stroke, but my stroke still lets me down. There's really only two ways it lets me down. The one has already been mentioned and it involves side spin. It's when you don't strike the ball with the speed that you intended to and the swerve gets you. At least on those types of shots your cue may still be online so to me those misses are do more to a lack of conviction than they are because your stroke let you down.

I blame my stroke more so on longer straight-ish type shots, where I plan on hitting center ball and end up cueing off center. I take it Colin's contention is that if you utilized the proper pivot point you could eliminate many of these types of misses. Then you wouldn't be able to blame the stroke nearly as much.

I was just talking to a teammate last night about the real benefits of playing with an LD shaft and I've toyed with the idea of going back to a traditional maple shaft for a couple of years now. It probably won't happen but I can see how having the pivot point right at your normal bridge length would help eliminate quite a few misses.

Only if you use the correct speed for your pivot point on all shots. BHE is great. But, it is not a "cure all stroke problems" that some like to think it is.

 

[Colin Colenso]

I've had a light come on recently too where I decided that I really needed to work on my alignment more so than I needed to work on my stroke, but my stroke still lets me down. There's really only two ways it lets me down. The one has already been mentioned and it involves side spin. It's when you don't strike the ball with the speed that you intended to and the swerve gets you. At least on those types of shots your cue may still be online so to me those misses are do more to a lack of conviction than they are because your stroke let you down.

I blame my stroke more so on longer straight-ish type shots, where I plan on hitting center ball and end up cueing off center. I take it Colin's contention is that if you utilized the proper pivot point you could eliminate many of these types of misses. Then you wouldn't be able to blame the stroke nearly as much.

I was just talking to a teammate last night about the real benefits of playing with an LD shaft and I've toyed with the idea of going back to a traditional maple shaft for a couple of years now. It probably won't happen but I can see how having the pivot point right at your normal bridge length would help eliminate quite a few misses.

BD,
First point on the speed... spot on.

On the longer straightish shots, you're pretty close to what I'm thinking.

If the bridge is at the pivot point, unintentional side will divert the ball. If you're playing firm, the effect is less. As the distance between CB and OB increases, increasing the bridge length approx 1 inch per foot, longer than the pivot point which should be 12 to 15 inches for LD cues, can help.

That's not exact, as it depends on the speed you're shooting and the slipperiness of the balls and cloth grippiness.

You have to get to know your cue and adjust a little for tables at times if they are gippy or brand new cloth.. and speed etc. But don't be overwhelmed, even the old fashioned ways have to adjust for conditions and speeds etc. At least BHE type methods utilizing pivoting reduce the variability, once the effective pivot point can be worked out within an inch or so.