Theory of low deflection cues

riedmich

.. dogs' friend ..
Silver Member
Hi,

meanwhile I found some documents from Ron Shepard, Dr. Dave and Bob Meucci. Ron Shepard maybe was the one who "created" the term of the "effective endmass" and Dr. Dave used it many times.

In one of his articles Dr. Dave wrote that the so called "endmass" or "effective endmass" shall be understood as a function of geometry and material properties. And in another article Dr. Dave says clearly that mass AND also shaft stiffness is important for squirt. But this expert of theory leaves a big miracle open about deflection or squirt affecting aspects by defining this "function" of an endmass.

Ron Shepard writes in his theory about endmass, that it is in principle the shaftend's performance of moving sidewards while contacting the white ball that decides about much or less squirt. This goes in principle hand in hand with Bob Meuccis theory, that flexibility is very important, just packed in other words and terms. But both very mystic / abstract. But how explaining it not so abstractly?????

In my understanding everthing these 3 experts tell sounds logically and explains "reality" of billards. For example the predator shafts, especially the Z2, unifies maybe all principles affecting low squirt:

- very small diameter at the end --> low mass, high flexibility
- boring in the front end --> low mass, high flexibility
- soft material of ferrule --> high flexibility
- small ferrule with low density--> low mass
- medium tip hardness --> higher flexibility

As I see now it is very easy to be missunderstood if one only talks about "endmass", many people then only think about weight, but do not see that the creators of that idea also included stiffness or flexibility, call it as you want.

Beside having the clearness about theories' principles, it is maybe impossible to quantify each single aspect in relation to the other aspects.

But it seems to be a very interesting thing investigating the influence of flexibility and stiffness (in area tip and ferrule / the whole shaft) in a similar way Ron Shepard and Dr. Dave did for the endmass.

Does anybody know about such investigations?


best regards
Michael
 
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AtLarge

AzB Gold Member
Gold Member
Silver Member
I don't know the mental states of the authorities in this forum, but by no means I would annoy anyone mentioning meucci, and if I do now please excuse me.

I found at meuccis homepage a document about the red dot shaft. http://www.meuccicues.com/reddot.htm It is written that with such flat laminated shafts the radial direction affects the deflection. If this is true this could mean that shaft-stiffness influences deflection as well as its mass/weight. Does this document tell the truth? Or is it a special matter of advertisement by meucci?

May be there are some persons knowing about these flat laminated shafts like red dot.

Thanks a lot
Michael

The Meucci flat-laminated shaft is the black-dot shaft, not the red-dot shaft. The red-dot preceded the black dot, and was a solid maple shaft marked to allow the player to orient it consistently from shot to shot.

Edit -- sorry. I replied to post #15 before I noticed that there was a page 2 with a response that already said this.
 
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RBC

Deceased
tap tap tap
What's the weight of your ferrule by cubic cm, RB ?

Joey,

I really don't feel like doing the math to get you the weight by cubic CM, but I can say it has a specific gravity around .7 if that helps you.

I'm feeling lazy tonight! Sorry, LOL
 

RBC

Deceased
Riedmich

The thing is that shaft flex does make a difference. The problem is how much. I can tell you that you can make a very flexible shaft with a heavy tip end and it will squirt the cue ball a ton. You can also make a very stiff shaft with a really light tip end, and it will be very low squirt.

Beyond that, you can decide for yourself how much a role the flex will play. Do some experimentation!
 

rob@BPQ

custom cue maker
Silver Member
defec

i am a n engineer and a cue builder for 20 plus years. there is no such thing as deflection with regards to the end of a cue shaft. it is not measured in impact in a direct line. as such the weight of a ferrule is neglible as the total mass of the cue is impacting the cueball. the correct formula for a straightline impact is deflection= (force x the length of the (cue) object cubed) / (3x psi[weight of cue] x impact speed). this relates to mass x volume = force. predators marketing program was very good and they sold a lot shafts even if thier logic and science was flawed. so in the interest of science and reality please stop talking about deflection in cues.
 

RBC

Deceased
Rob

I think the more correct term is cue ball squirt. Unfortunately, Deflection has become the industry understood term for cue ball squirt. I still try to describe it with both terms whenever I speak about it.

I'm not an educated engineer. However, I have worked with and spoken to many who are well versed on this subject, and have done actual physical studies to prove or disprove their theories about cue ball squirt. It is real, and it is a function of the difference in mass between the tip end of the cue and the cue ball during contact.
 

KJ Cues

Pro Cue Builder & Repair
Silver Member
i am a n engineer and a cue builder for 20 plus years. there is no such thing as deflection with regards to the end of a cue shaft. it is not measured in impact in a direct line. as such the weight of a ferrule is neglible as the total mass of the cue is impacting the cueball. the correct formula for a straightline impact is deflection= (force x the length of the (cue) object cubed) / (3x psi[weight of cue] x impact speed). this relates to mass x volume = force. predators marketing program was very good and they sold a lot shafts even if thier logic and science was flawed. so in the interest of science and reality please stop talking about deflection in cues.

Your statement defines straight-line dynamics but fails to address the physics encountered when offsetting the cue's tip to the QB's center-line, as in the application of side-spin or English. Think action and opposite reaction.

I agree that there is no deflection in a straight-line/center-line hit but start moving off center and you open up a whole world of variables. Start moving even further off center and the more extreme those variables become.

I've come up with a very simple means of illustrating this so everyone should be able to see for themselves how this works.
Lay a quarter flat on the table and with a pencil, eraser end towards the quarter touching the center-line outside edge, the edge nearest you, push the quarter forward and the quarter will move ahead in a straight-line direction.
Pretty simple.
Now move the pencil/eraser slightly off-center to the right and push straight forward again. The very first thing that happens is that the quarter moves to the left. You've just witnessed 'squirt'.
Deflection would be where the eraser moves away from the quarter in the process.
This is where the "action and opposite reaction" thing I mentioned comes into play. This is also where all those nasty variables start to make themselves known. Force, speed of stroke, amount of off-set, even cloth-speed and yes, end-mass of the shaft. It's weight and flex figure prominently.
I hope that this allows you a better understanding.

I also agree that Predator has achieved some great success from their outstanding marketing but the science and technology employed in their shafts is very real.
 

JoeyInCali

Maker of Joey Bautista Cues
Silver Member
Joey,

I really don't feel like doing the math to get you the weight by cubic CM, but I can say it has a specific gravity around .7 if that helps you.

I'm feeling lazy tonight! Sorry, LOL

That would be .7 grams per cm3 as well. What a coincidink .
Melamine and Juma are about 1.4 grams per cm3 I believe.
Maple itself I think is around .9 grams per cm3.
 

JoeyInCali

Maker of Joey Bautista Cues
Silver Member
i am a n engineer and a cue builder for 20 plus years. there is no such thing as deflection with regards to the end of a cue shaft. it is not measured in impact in a direct line. as such the weight of a ferrule is neglible as the total mass of the cue is impacting the cueball.

Perhaps but that bored hole makes that end much lighter thereby making the tip deflect a lot MORE OFF the cueball before the cueball squirts off the tip.
 

RBC

Deceased
That would be .7 grams per cm3 as well. What a coincidink .
Melamine and Juma are about 1.4 grams per cm3 I believe.
Maple itself I think is around .9 grams per cm3.

Joey,

I'm not sure about your numbers.

Maple's specific gravity typically runs from about .65 to .75, which is what our ferrule runs. So if our ferrule at .7 specific gravity comes out to .7 grams per cubic cm, then the same calculation for maple should come out to the same number.

I have looked, but never found, a suitable plastic that is as light.
 

bigpin22

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
miscues

Perhaps but that bored hole makes that end much lighter thereby making the tip deflect a lot MORE OFF the cueball before the cueball squirts off the tip.

In theory wouldn't this make miscues happen more often?????

I shoot with an OB2 and love it, but I do tend to miscue with it more than other shafts, especially when slow rolling a ball with a great amount of energy!
 

sfleinen

14.1 & One Pocket Addict
Gold Member
Silver Member
In theory wouldn't this make miscues happen more often?????

I shoot with an OB2 and love it, but I do tend to miscue with it more than other shafts, especially when slow rolling a ball with a great amount of energy!

How does one "slow roll a ball with a great amount of energy"? :D

Seriously, the following Mike Page video (and associated jump-point to the 5:30 mark) may help:

Pay attention to what happens when he attaches a pair of vise-grips to the ferrule of the cue, to greatly increase the mass in that area:
http://youtube.com/watch?v=mXJ7bDafTms#t=5m30s

-Sean
 

Agent17

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
None of this means anything to people who can actually play the game well.

I am not talking about the video, which is quite interesting. I mean this obsession with low deflection.

Bottom line - learn how to use YOUR cue, not try to find a cue that will make you better. There isn't one.
 
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Agent17

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I have a feeling that is not true.

This kind of stuff means nothing to people who think they know enough.

As my father says, 'the only bad days are the ones when I don't learn anything.'

I couldn't care less if you choose to be a toofless ign'ant idiot for the rest of your life. Just don't shi# on other people trying to learn things.

dld

Maybe I did not make my point clearly?

Put a good cue in the hands of a good player and they will play well.

Put a low deflection cue in the hands of an average player and they will be average.

All I'm saying is the focus is on the wrong thing and you can talk about theories until the cows come home, it makes no difference in the big scheme of things.

If you wish to subscribe to ld = better, then go ahead, be my guest.

Learning/understanding about 'squirt' will not make one bit of difference to how good you could be if you learnt how to hit the ball properly.

As for learning, I totally agree with your father. He was wise. :smile:

Finally, I don't believe I am a 'toofless ign'ant idiot' but it made me laugh nevertheless and brightened my evening. :thumbup:
 

bdcues

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
How does one "slow roll a ball with a great amount of energy"? :D

Seriously, the following Mike Page video (and associated jump-point to the 5:30 mark) may help:

Pay attention to what happens when he attaches a pair of vise-grips to the ferrule of the cue, to greatly increase the mass in that area:
http://youtube.com/watch?v=mXJ7bDafTms#t=5m30s

-Sean

I did not want to be the first to ask...lol.

Great video presentation about mass.

Bob Danielson
www.bdcuesandcomix.com
 

sfleinen

14.1 & One Pocket Addict
Gold Member
Silver Member
None of this means anything to people who can actually play the game well.

I am not talking about the video, which is quite interesting. I mean this obsession with low deflection.

Bottom line - learn how to use YOUR cue, not try to find a cue that will make you better. There isn't one.

Agent17:

My posting a video of someone demonstrating the characteristics of squirt (related to end mass of the cue) has nothing to do with MY personal preferences in shafts.

For the record, I use standard non-laminated maple shafts. I do have a Tiger X-Ultra, which is laminated (for radial consistency), but it is NOT LD. I do not own a single LD shaft. And I'd prefer it that way, because I pride myself in my "Wallabushka abilities" -- being able to grab a cue off the wall and adapt quickly / play well with it, because my game is not dependent on LD.

Again, I only posted that video in the spirit of helping out / knowledge sharing, even though I personally don't partake in the LD school of practice. (I know you said you weren't talking specifically about the video -- and say it was interesting -- but you don't differentiate this from the post in general.) Please be careful with "broad-brush" comments related to that effort, especially as it relates to just being curious how LD "works" (i.e. seeking of knowledge) -- which I think was the intent of this thread.

-Sean <-- "just because one is interested in how something like LD works, doesn't mean he/she is a subscriber to the LD practice"
 

fhopper

I like Points
Silver Member
Gutten Tag
Fun thread. I am also one of those people who wants to be able to answer questions based on knowledge and therefore must learn a lot about as much as I can. I am back to shooting after a very long time and we never talked about any of this back in the day. I play straight and one pocket. I own several McDermott I 2 and several McDermott G Core and several Players HXT shafts and a lot of maple shafts; Shannon, Viking new and old, McDermott new and old, Shurtz, Players, and DP. What I am enjoying is putting together a stick and then adapting to that configuration. Learning what I am adjusting for makes it all the more interesting and fun.
 
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Agent17

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Agent17:

My posting a video of someone demonstrating the characteristics of squirt (related to end mass of the cue) has nothing to do with MY personal preferences in shafts.

For the record, I use standard non-laminated maple shafts. I do have a Tiger X-Ultra, which is laminated (for radial consistency), but it is NOT LD. I do not own a single LD shaft. And I'd prefer it that way, because I pride myself in my "Wallabushka abilities" -- being able to grab a cue off the wall and adapt quickly / play well with it, because my game is not dependent on LD.

Again, I only posted that video in the spirit of helping out / knowledge sharing, even though I personally don't partake in the LD school of practice. (I know you said you weren't talking specifically about the video -- and say it was interesting -- but you don't differentiate this from the post in general.) Please be careful with "broad-brush" comments related to that effort, especially as it relates to just being curious how LD "works" (i.e. seeking of knowledge) -- which I think was the intent of this thread.

-Sean <-- "just because one is interested in how something like LD works, doesn't mean he/she is a subscriber to the LD practice"

The video was well done and I enjoyed watching the results. I said it was interesting and I meant that. Maybe I should have made that clearer. A good simple demonstration of the effect, well done.

I did not mean to imply anything negative about you or the video, so apologies if it came across that way.

I do not dispute the effects of 'squirt', but I am of the opinion that players/customers are far too obsessed with this aspect, which is largely irrelevant to becoming a better player.

My 'broad brush' comments are aimed squarely at those who place great importance on 'squirt' and think a low deflection shaft will make them better overall.

But hats off to the companies who created a market there was no need for. Marketing genius.
 
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