Thomas Wayne lose his diginity on Cuezilla.

TATE

AzB Gold Mensch
Silver Member
The cue in question is beautiful. Thomas could have been more tactful in his comments, BUT, when it comes to CNC, Thomas knows more about it than any cuemaker in the business and what he said about it not being true 4th axis CNC work is absolutely correct. Four different axis' were used but true 4 axis CNC work means all 4 axis' are independent and move at the same time. That was not the case with this cue. Actually only 2 or 3 axis were used at a time with rotations in between. I've been guilty of calling some of my work 4 axis CNC also when in fact it's 2 1/2 axis at a time. Most cuemakers consider it 4 axis CNC when you have 4 different axis' available even though it's not truly 4 axis work unless all 4 axis' are moving at once.

Sherm,

I will tell a little story. I had 9 big tree stumps to be removed from my last house property.

A guy came over and quoted me $1500 for it. I remarked that it was expensive. He said "well, we have to rent a big stump puller and it costs a lot of money".

Another guy came over, an immigrant from Mexico and quoted me $500. I said asked how he would remove the stumps. He said "peek and shovel".:smile: His crew of 4 men removed them all in two days. With 2 picks and 2 shovels.


In Taiwan most of the true treasured art from China is housed in the National Museum. Chaing Kai-Shek took the majority of treasures to Formosa when he fled China after WWII. Mainland China itself is devoid of this true handiwork. If you ever get a chance to see the hand inlaid furniture, trust me, you will not marvel at 4th axis CNC. You will marvel that Chinese craftsman 500 years ago could do almost anything with wood, pearl, and abalone, on any curved surface, which totally defies the imagination.

Chris
 

Snapshot9

son of 3 leg 1 eye dog ..
Silver Member
Cue

Did you bother to read ALL the posts, and to look at all the URL's that Thomas posted. His particular URl of 4-axis cues showing the 3 cue butts indeed shows 4 axis work inlayed into ivory, espeically the one with the Catheral ivory window in the cue butt, so he has a valid point to his argument.

Suffice it to say, Lambros was wrong about being the 1st to do 4 axis work into ivory as he stated, but the Dragon cue is indeed a beautiful cue, and I would say, surpasses past designs using 4 axis work.
 

Zbotiman

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Lack of public awareness, period!

The cue in question is beautiful. Thomas could have been more tactful in his comments, BUT, when it comes to CNC, Thomas knows more about it than any cuemaker in the business and what he said about it not being true 4th axis CNC work is absolutely correct. Four different axis' were used but true 4 axis CNC work means all 4 axis' are independent and move at the same time. That was not the case with this cue. Actually only 2 or 3 axis were used at a time with rotations in between. I've been guilty of calling some of my work 4 axis CNC also when in fact it's 2 1/2 axis at a time. Most cuemakers consider it 4 axis CNC when you have 4 different axis' available even though it's not truly 4 axis work unless all 4 axis' are moving at once.

I totally agree with you Sherm. Thomas Wayne probably could have said this a little bit better, but it seems to be accurate given his work in the past! Now here's what was said, "Having used both techniques extensively, beginning in the 1980′s – indeed, having pioneered many aspects of them – this claim gave me a true belly laugh. Thanks to whomever wrote that silly bit of nonsense; it’s always good to laugh."
The guy is a legend among all the top cue builders, the public doesn't seem to be very familiar with his actual work, though, the time period in which those works have been created, his accomplishments as a machinist and the contributions those things have done for the Art of Cuemaking. As an Artist, I can understand the "touchy nature one develops towards the uneducated masses and their comments about works they have little actual knowledge of, and here in print, as well, for all the world to see! Plus, as a bonus, the quality of this beautiful cue has nothing to do with the mechanical praise falsely given to it, what a shame! Now, to boot, every one commenting is assuming it's just jealousy on Wayne's part, adding insult to injury in my book! Some cue-makers have taken this CNC programming art form to a near "High Renaissance" level. Thomas Wayne, has certainly been a major contributor to this "State of the Art" situation, period!!!
 

Zbotiman

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
They do all their cue work by hand in the Phillipines!

Sherm,

I will tell a little story. I had 9 big tree stumps to be removed from my last house property.

A guy came over and quoted me $1500 for it. I remarked that it was expensive. He said "well, we have to rent a big stump puller and it costs a lot of money".

Another guy came over, an immigrant from Mexico and quoted me $500. I said asked how he would remove the stumps. He said "peek and shovel".:smile: His crew of 4 men removed them all in two days. With 2 picks and 2 shovels.


You can get a super nice, wood lathe built, exacto inlaid cue from the Philippines for that same, I dunno, $150.00 bucks! In fairness, isn't that the same type of analogy you just gave here with the tree stumps? You play with a beautiful, money savin' tree stump cue, do ya?
 

"CaliRed".

High Def Videos!!!
Silver Member
the hell with all the bickering.... what's up with Fatboy's posts? I'm about this close to calling his posts here "downright fraudulent"

cuz reading his posts over there, spelled all correctly and everything, and his over here, where he himself, makes fun of his posts, I can't put the two together as the same man:eek:

Read his post below..... Moreover??:confused: Have you ever heard Fatboy use that word here?:grin:

its just a shame that people with the same interest are at war, reminds me of the middle east peace process. LOL. Moreover Deno decids to put a cue up a second time in the hopes for more “quality” discussion(thats my guess) and its nothing more than a platform for a blowhard to use to promote his cause, and in that process has lost the respect of more than one person i’m sure.

thanks Deno for everything.


oh, on topic.... nice cue!
 

Drawman623

Box Cue lover
Silver Member
He is just a little bent on this one - who klnows why. Anyway, Thomas is out-of-line on this one thread, but has done so much brilliant work and has been so helpful to so many, that we should just forgive him and move on.

Dragging out a critique about two CNC masters arguing seems even more pointless than their argument. Most don't know the history or what is being said behind the scenes, and some don't have an inkling about 4th axis work at all.

Tate said it best IMO, all parties should listen: ...forgive him and move on...
 

mdavis228

AzB Gold Member
Gold Member
Silver Member
Pretty disappointing, and I don't expect a more "technically educational" continuation of that tirade is going to do much to dispel the publicly insulting tone.
 
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RRfireblade

Grammer Are For Stupids
Silver Member
Well theres not much that can be said that hasnt' already so I'll just add that I can speak from experience when I say that Thomas has been very helpful and appreciative of other cuemakers work in the past, altho he can be 'eccentric' from time to time.

As a machinist who programs 4 and 5 axis machines I also agree with his opinion despite disagreeing with his tact. Even tho it ended (if it actually has) ugly it started over the claim that a method known to have been used nearly a decade in advance was used for the first time here. This is arguably a website intending to stand as a documentation or archival of master cue construction so I can understand taking that statement pretty personally should I had been in a similar postion. The apparent editting and re-stating of the initional post only added to fuel to the fire.

Shame about the 'uglyness' in any case.
 

dardusm

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Interesting reading the comments on Cuezilla and here on AZ. I'm ignorant of what constitutes the 4 axis techniques used in CNC inlaying, so I won't even try to pretend I know. But, in reading the comments, it sounds like the issue could be the interpretation of what actually is involved in 4 axis technique of inlaying.
 

bstroud

Deceased
I was probably the first cuemaker to see this cue at the Marina Del Rey show that I produced.

I told mike it was a beautiful cue.

Is it 4-axis work. NO.

Rotary machining is generally axis substitution. Usually the Y-axis is replaced by the A or W-axis and is changed to rotary motion in degrees.

True 4-axis machining involves no substitution and all 4 axis are moving at the same time. I have the software to do this and use it a lot. I am not sure who else has it.

I have to agree with TW on this one.

Sincerely,

Bill Stroud
 

mia

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Thomas Wayne may very well be a genious of a cuemaker and a master of CNC. But the bottom line is he is ridiculously arrogant and downright obnoxious. And while he lashed out in ways that made him look jealous, infantile, and flat-out ridiculous, he can't take the ENTIRE blame here.

The sad truth is, the Lambros cue was originally posted two weeks ago and it stirred up quite a bit of contraversy when Thomas went off on Mike like a bratty little school-kid. But at the end of the week, it was all over. On to the next cue.

Then, Deno went and posted the cue all over again and opened the forum up for discussion one more time, all in what seems like an effort to either:
A) stir the pot some more and drive traffic/people to the flame-fest
B) allow Mike to illustrate his point and his technique with a bit more detail.

I suspect it was a bit of both. But the sad truth is, this is NOT the first instance of bickering on Cuezilla. And it certainly isn't the first time Thomas Wayne has lashed out like this.

I was pulling for cuezilla early on. It seemed like a great idea... a bunch of cue lovers talking cues and reviewing cues. Its a great way to see what other people think of various cues and, more to the point, HOW others make the assessments they do.

Instead, it turned into a place where people make comments, cuemakers get defensive and juvenile (Thomas Wayne, Paul Drexler, etc.) and Deno seems to pick and choose what he wants to be viewed by the public. He's censored posts before leaving a few comments out of posts here and there. And now, he seems to be fanning the flames again.

Too bad. Cuezilla had potential at one point but its just turning into another sh*tstorm that is doing the cue world more harm than good.
 

SK Custom Cues

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I remember watching and listening to TW during the cue maker round table discussion and he had a great deal to say. I would have to say he acted more as a chair person than anything else, voicing extremely opinionated ideas. He was very strong and passionate about everything he said and I did not find myself disagreeing with any of it.

After this thread was started, I questioned many of the people trying to make TW look bad for defending what he thought was right. How many of the same people really know what 4 axis is? I must admit that I am a cue maker, and I don't know what it is. I have personally never used CNC.

I think it is refreshing for someone of Mr. Stroud's stature and experience to step forward and defend TW's comments, because instinctively, I felt that TW had a significant amount of legitimacy to his comments. After witnessing his intellect, there is no way he was just, "being an ass".
 

mia

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
After this thread was started, I questioned many of the people trying to make TW look bad for defending what he thought was right. How many of the same people really know what 4 axis is? I must admit that I am a cue maker, and I don't know what it is. I have personally never used CNC.

I'm not a cuemaker. Never have been. Never will be. I'm not even a machinist. I'm just a guy. So frankly, I could care less whether the cue required 4th axis techniques or not.

No one here is trying to make Thomas Wayne look bad. Thomas does a fine job of that all by himself. To disagree with someone is commonplace. Its not a question of what Thomas was saying or what point he was trying to make. Its a question of HOW he said it. He acted like an arrogant, obnoxious ass. Its not the first time he's done so on Cuezilla. If you look back, you'll see for yourself. Thomas is VERY high on himself and does not hesitate to attemtp to try and cut others down to size.


...After witnessing his intellect, there is no way he was just, "being an ass".

A person's intellect and his ability to act like a civil human being are in NO way related. The smartest man or woman alive can still act like an ass. Do you honestly think Thomas was acting or even 'speaking' in a completely rational manner?
 

SpiderWebComm

HelpImBeingOppressed
Silver Member
I was probably the first cuemaker to see this cue at the Marina Del Rey show that I produced.

I told mike it was a beautiful cue.

Is it 4-axis work. NO.

Rotary machining is generally axis substitution. Usually the Y-axis is replaced by the A or W-axis and is changed to rotary motion in degrees.

True 4-axis machining involves no substitution and all 4 axis are moving at the same time. I have the software to do this and use it a lot. I am not sure who else has it.

I have to agree with TW on this one.

Sincerely,

Bill Stroud

Bill:

For my own education - if an inlay wraps around a cue and the depth to the bottom of the pocket is identical throughout--- and the inlay fits perfectly into the pocket - isn't that 4 axis work? Based on what you're saying, can one tell the difference between the final output of the two? If so, how? I heard people used to do 4 axis work by hand over a hundred years ago. Therefore, does it matter if a machine's axes all move concurrently when true 4 axis work was done manually forever ago? I'm just asking because I don't make cues and I'd like to know.

I think this is a terminology issue more than a cue issue. TW's ORIGINAL gripe was that the inlays were flat and called Lambros a fraud. That should be the primary discussion, imo.

Thanks for the insight-
Dave
 

Cornerman

Cue Author...Sometimes
Gold Member
Silver Member
True 4-axis machining involves no substitution and all 4 axis are moving at the same time.

I have to respectfully disagree with you Bill. I'm a career-long automation and controls engineer working side by side with the highest technology machinists in the world in the injection molding field. What you wrote as "true 4-axis machining" and "moving at the same time" is not in any machinists' or automation definition.

I believe this is simply a case of a cuemaker term that isn't a norm used in the machining world. You and Thomas are pioneers using interpolated multi-axis control in milling cues, but I have to disagree to the use of your terminology. I'm not going to say it's a semantic issue either. I'm not allowed to redefine someone else's terminology. 4th axis machining was a term understood in machining long before NC was put to cues.

I have to agree with TW on this one.
Does this agreement also include the way he presented his argument?

Respectfully,

Fred Agnir
 
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Zbotiman

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
A man's lifes work

Dragging out a critique about two CNC masters arguing seems even more pointless than their argument. Most don't know the history or what is being said behind the scenes, and some don't have an inkling about 4th axis work at all.

Tate said it best IMO, all parties should listen: ...forgive him and move on...
I'm amazed at the negative and critical attitude from the cue buying public's point of view, about the use of the C.N.C. in Inlay creation! In just about every other Art form, at this time, it is regarded quite differently. At Gibson Guitar's custom shop, they produced some of their most collectible pieces (the G.I.N.C.H. series guitars) from the late 80's and early 90's using this tool of the trade, the C.N.C.. In the 50's it was the Gorton pantograph that did all their inlay. You'd have to go back to the 20's and 30's to find hand inlay being used regularly, but it was certainly not of a superior quality to the modern work of today. Now, what I find so--- funny here is, everybody in that medium new by the late forties, that hand inlay was a waste of precious time in a man's life. It certainly had nothing at all to do with the over-all quality of the work! In fact, it was usually the other way around, where quality was of the utmost concern, the machine did it more accurately! Now Luthiers are no slouches with tools, either. They'll use what's best, if they can get their hands on it. In that industry the C.N.C. was embraced long ago.

Personally, I've done and seen some amazing hand inlay. Most often that path is chosen to save time, on a moderately complex, 1-off piece. It has nothing to do with quality or collect-ability in the guitar industry!
An Artist see's something in his mind and uses the tools of that era to bring that vision into reality, period.

Throughout the time of man, what tool an artist chooses to use, on a project, is left to his perspective as to what he feels will give him the best rendition of his vision. Money or patronage usually helps make that choice for him, as well.

It's disappointing to see how much emphasis, people put on this misunderstood "sales bias," about C.N.C. produced inlay as opposed to C.N.C. cues. People seem to have so little understanding of the overall quality of cues, in cue making, in general! A C.N.C. is not some magic wand that creates masterpieces with-out the vision and discipline of an Artist creating it! In plain and simple truth, it requires every bit as much talent to program the C.N.C. machine, as it does to wield carving blades, probably more, certainly a lot more knowledge and every bit as much discipline, which is always the determining factor in the prestige of great works over the centuries.

When making templates for inlay patterns, to be cut on a pantograph, you often cut them by hand at 5 times their finished size. Even then they are much simpler patterns in design and therefore easier to cut. More can by accomplished with the use of a C.N.C. but one must sacrifice years of your life to learn how to use it in that way. In essence, mastery of this machine is equivalent to obtaining a PhD in C.N.C. programming.

At some point in the future the pool playing public is going to wake-up and realize that a " high renaissance in cue-making" took place right under their noses and that they slept right through it because of a silly "sales bias." A bias created and used by "hustlers," to promote certain cue-makers they favor, "Cue Mongers" (the guys who sell cue-sticks) have for years touted this lie before the general public, that using "a pantograph as opposed to the C.N.C. creates a better cue. From it's inception this was just a sales gimmick they created!" The public bought that LIE, hook, line, and sinker! In cue-making, making a V-mitered set of points in the prong is one thing, how the Inlay is put on the cue is quite another story altogether.

The over-all idea here is to support the great things that are happening in your world and share them with those who aren't familiar with what's going on with what you do. More people will find that interesting and get involved that way. Your Artisans will have patronage and the sport grows over-all from that! From the 20's to the late 80's, Pool totally belonged to the U.S., now it belongs to the countries of the east. It might be a good time to ask ourselves what went wrong with our Sport?

Cue-makers like Thomas Wayne, have stretched the ART of cue-making to it's highest heights, that's good for the sport of pool in general, too. Who would ever believe, that pool players anywhere, would become businessmen and create such amazing works of pure art? Is it any wonder a man like Thomas Wayne, feels cheated out of his "propers?"

When biased, criticisms about the use of antiquated machinery, are create by the "hucksters" to sell cues, B.S. will abound within the market place. It then becomes difficult to have a well educated criticism, about the provenance, of greater developments from within the artistic cue building community.

In the end, this man has given his life, to his work, and what he has contributed to "the state -of-the-art in cue-making," is what we're talking about here. When you look at it that way, it's easy to see why someone get's upset with the general lack of understanding, concerning who did what first. And by the way, the guy designed and built a lot of his own machinery back then, too! Upon reflection, one would hope to get the facts right in an article that has the potential, to remain available in print, for so long on the computer. Perhaps it's the authors of this controversy, that should print a public retraction of the statements, regarding the provenance of C.N.C. inlay development?
 

SUPERSTAR

I am Keyser Söze
Silver Member
Honestly, i don't care if a cue was made in the 9th dimension and utilized ∞-axis technology.

If someone thought someone else was wrong, all they had to do was contact them and bring it up for discussion.
CLEARLY, someone would rather paint themselves to be the Grand Poobah axis guru, so that their ego feels better.

As far as Lambros is concerned.

Lambros worked at JPL, which means his IQ = ROCKET SCIENTIST!
LITERALLY!!! HAHAHAHAHAHAHA

Does it really matter?
 

SpiderWebComm

HelpImBeingOppressed
Silver Member
Lambros worked at JPL, which means his IQ = ROCKET SCIENTIST!
LITERALLY!!! HAHAHAHAHAHAHA

I made that point on Cuezilla. Many don't know that about Mike. For those of us in a high-tech field, we know the elite of the elite of the elite work at either JPL or Los Alamos National Laboratory. He worked on microwave communications from deep space probes (or something like that - he told me but I had a hard time following).

In short, Mike's a REALLY smart guy. If he says, "XYZ is 4-axis inlays" --- I default to believing the guy. That way, if I lose a bet -- I'm losing a bet on the side of a legit genius. That's how I see it.
 
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