Throwing in long straight-in shots

[Patrick Johnson]

Jal:
Dr. Joe W. has posed the possibility that applying a "known" amount of side might be better than a somewhat inaccurate attempt at striking centerball.

mikepage:
What Jow W. says is true...

We have to be careful about what "better" means.

For this question "better" means less throw from the same tip offset error assuming the same OB contact point.

For the original question "better" means throw overcomes squirt for the same tip offset error assuming the OB contact point is changed by squirt.

I don't believe throw overcomes squirt under any normal circumstances (unless squirt is significantly reduced by swerve).

pj
chgo

 

[frankncali]

Instead of throwing the CB, consider throwing your cue....at least releasing the cue and catching it. When it's released....it's flying straight...guaranteed. Then you can focus on where the tip strikes the CB.

I think you're doing this because you're compensating for a crooked stroke. Try at least letting the cue slide in your hand. I drop mine completely on long straight-ins.

Interesting... I don't think throwing would straighten out any stroke at all. Probably be the same.

Maybe its the speed. Theres constant acceleration on the throw but that is not all the itme present with a normal shot.

Your thought about the cue flying straight just because its thrown is way off. Align yourself crooked and then do it... or align straight yet throw in some side movement on the arm swing. Both will produce a crooked flight path.

I think there is something to learn from the drill you posted and thats that we do decelerate causing other muscles and pressure points to occur when we didnt expect them to. Also that we need to focus MUCH MUCH more on proper alignment and stroke .

I have been telling myself on long straight in shots where little cueball action is needed to stroke long and smooth. Its working now and I am hitting the ball with what feels like a smooth flowing stroke. Even feels softer yet I know its probably not.

 

[SpiderWebComm]

Interesting... I don't think throwing would straighten out any stroke at all. Probably be the same.

Maybe its the speed. Theres constant acceleration on the throw but that is not all the itme present with a normal shot.

Your thought about the cue flying straight just because its thrown is way off. Align yourself crooked and then do it... or align straight yet throw in some side movement on the arm swing. Both will produce a crooked flight path.

I think there is something to learn from the drill you posted and thats that we do decelerate causing other muscles and pressure points to occur when we didnt expect them to. Also that we need to focus MUCH MUCH more on proper alignment and stroke .

I have been telling myself on long straight in shots where little cueball action is needed to stroke long and smooth. Its working now and I am hitting the ball with what feels like a smooth flowing stroke. Even feels softer yet I know its probably not.

I think I said somewhere in the video that it won't make you stroke straight - it just flies straight the way you release it. Prevents decelerating and turning while stroking.

 

[Andrew Manning]

I also would argue that position play is mostly speed control rather than precise tip placement. Sure there are a handful of position shots that do require very precise tip placement, like stun follow and stun draw shots, but they are not the majority.

I disagree with your assessment for most of us mere mortals.

Efren generally has shots in 9-ball that are about speed control. This is because he thinks ahead, plays intelligent patterns, and always achieves exactly the angle he wanted, which is of course a natural angle to get natural position on the next shot.

However, if I run a rack of 9-ball, there's going to be at least one shot (probably more than one) where I have to use power draw, power follow, hard stun with side-spin, or a very touchy almost-stun, but with enough draw to avoid kissing the 7, but not too much draw or I'll scratch in the corner, and enough running english to get two rails above the 5.

None of these are the examples you mentioned (which don't come up all that often), but all of them are shots that need a lot of precision in your tip placement, or you'll either miss the shot or fail to achieve your position. If you can't hit a long-ish straight shot with no spin consistently, then by the same coin you're not going to execute any of these shots consistently. These shots, usually necessary because you didn't quite hit the angle you wanted and now you have to recover, come up a lot, even for really excellent players. I think if you actually counted all the shots you hit where position play is mostly just about speed control without being very sensitive to tip placement, I think you might find you're mistaken in your statement about what type of shot is "the majority".

-Andrew

 

[okinawa77]

Based on these two observations, I did some experimenting on my table yesterday. I set up long straight-in shots, but I used a touch of right english on each shot. To compensate for the throw, I would aim such that the OB (with no friction) would head toward the right point of the pocket.
Using the method above, I noticed that my pocketing accuracy for these long straight-in shots went up significantly (at least it did yesterday). I do have somewhat of an explanation why I think my accuracy goes up, but I don't want to get into that now. It's still too soon for me to decide whether I'd incorporate this technique to my play on a regular basis. I was just wondering if anyone else does this (throwing in straight-in shots) regularly.

I know a guy that does the same thing.

Here is my advice.
Learn to shoot straight with precision....during practice.
If competing, do what works.

The reason I say this is...you can pocket straight in shots using a little side, but it requires an adjustment on the OB contact point. This makes the shot less accurate, than shooting dead center straight.
So, for the time being use the side english, but try to train yourself to shoot dead center.

I noticed a guy in the pool hall trying the old stop shot drill, and we wasn't very unsuccessful. He had the back end of his cue elevated too much.
Try to get your cue as level a possible because shooting with an elevated cue is like shooting a jump shot. How accurate are you with jump shots?

 

[okinawa77]

Based on these two observations, I did some experimenting on my table yesterday. I set up long straight-in shots, but I used a touch of right english on each shot. To compensate for the throw, I would aim such that the OB (with no friction) would head toward the right point of the pocket.
Using the method above, I noticed that my pocketing accuracy for these long straight-in shots went up significantly (at least it did yesterday). I do have somewhat of an explanation why I think my accuracy goes up, but I don't want to get into that now. It's still too soon for me to decide whether I'd incorporate this technique to my play on a regular basis. I was just wondering if anyone else does this (throwing in straight-in shots) regularly.

I know a guy that does the same thing.

Here is my advice.
Learn to shoot straight with precision....during practice.
If competing, do what works.

The reason I say this is...you can pocket straight in shots using a little side, but it requires an adjustment on the OB contact point. This makes the shot less accurate, than shooting dead center straight.
So, for the time being use the side english, but try to train yourself to shoot dead center.

I noticed a guy in the pool hall trying the old stop shot drill, and we wasn't very successful. He had the back end of his cue elevated too much.
Try to get your cue as level a possible because shooting with an elevated cue is like shooting a jump shot. How accurate are you with jump shots?

 

[jsp]

I don't believe throw overcomes squirt under any normal circumstances (unless squirt is significantly reduced by swerve)

What about table length shots where the OB is close to the CB? The closer the OB is to the CB, the less squirt has an effect. The further the OB is away from the pocket, the more throw has an effect.

 

[jsp]

None of these are the examples you mentioned (which don't come up all that often), but all of them are shots that need a lot of precision in your tip placement, or you'll either miss the shot or fail to achieve your position.

I think our disagreement lies in what we consider "a lot of precision" regarding tip placement. For me, a lot of precision is more precise than how you regard it. If I miss-hit my intended tip placement by an eighth of a tip, to me that's not considered "very precise". However, for the majority of position shots using english, if my tip placement is off by an eighth of a tip, or even a quarter of a tip (given same exact same speed control), I would still achieve decent enough position to make the next shot. Sure there would be cases where I must land the CB on a dime's width, and miss-hitting by an eighth tip would get me hooked, but I don't think those shots are in the majority.

 

[jsp]

I know a guy that does the same thing.

Here is my advice.
Learn to shoot straight with precision....during practice.
If competing, do what works.

The reason I say this is...you can pocket straight in shots using a little side, but it requires an adjustment on the OB contact point. This makes the shot less accurate, than shooting dead center straight.
So, for the time being use the side english, but try to train yourself to shoot dead center.

I noticed a guy in the pool hall trying the old stop shot drill, and we wasn't very successful. He had the back end of his cue elevated too much.
Try to get your cue as level a possible because shooting with an elevated cue is like shooting a jump shot. How accurate are you with jump shots?

Jump shot? What's a jump shot? In other words, my jump shot is non-existent, because I never practice them...lol.

Thanks for the advice. I'm still in the experimenting phase. That method didn't work out as well yesterday than it did before. The purpose of the thread was mostly to find out if people actually do this regularly.

 

[Patrick Johnson]

I don't believe throw overcomes squirt under any normal circumstances (unless squirt is significantly reduced by swerve)

What about table length shots where the OB is close to the CB? The closer the OB is to the CB, the less squirt has an effect. The further the OB is away from the pocket, the more throw has an effect.

OK, I'll add that to the list.

pj
chgo