Tight pocket help

J

JamesTLeahy

New member
Hi mechanics, I’d really appreciate some help.

I have a Brunswick GC3 that has basketball hoops as pockets, atleast compared to the 4.5” tournament standards here in Europe. I am swapping out the GC3 top with a GC5 top (rails, cushions and frame). I want to have 4 1/4” corners at 142degrees and 4 3/4” sides at 102degrees. I will use SuperSpeeds. I would prefer not to use shims to achieve the tightness.

Below is a picture of Joshua Fillers home table set to 4”

My questions are:
1. Are my sizes/angles ok? Do you see any issues with the use of Brunswick superspeeds?

2. Do I need to place a support wedge behind the overhanging cushion? See photos below for what I mean, the overhanging cushion doesn’t seem to have support behind it.
 

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trentfromtoledo

trentfromtoledo

8onthebreaktoledo
Silver Member
JamesTLeahy said:
Hi mechanics, I’d really appreciate some help.

I have a Brunswick GC3 that has basketball hoops as pockets, atleast compared to the 4.5” tournament standards here in Europe. I am swapping out the GC3 top with a GC5 top (rails, cushions and frame). I want to have 4 1/4” corners at 142degrees and 4 3/4” sides at 102degrees. I will use SuperSpeeds. I would prefer not to use shims to achieve the tightness.

Below is a picture of Joshua Fillers home table set to 4”

My questions are:
1. Are my sizes/angles ok? Do you see any issues with the use of Brunswick superspeeds?

2. Do I need to place a support wedge behind the overhanging cushion? See photos below for what I mean, the overhanging cushion doesn’t seem to have support behind it.
Click to expand...
First, its 141 in the corners. Second: Brunswick Superspeed go on that table. Third: wood extrensions are the proper way to tighten the pocket.
Finally: if you dont know what you are doing: you are in for an interesting ride, it aint rocket science, but, it requires quite a bit of knowledge.

Best advice: Dont go through all that trouble possibly butchering up a GC5 railset. Deal with what you have and BUY a table that comes factory with a Pro cut pocket. The slate depth in the pocket on a DIamond, Rasson or Predator table is the detail that makes the table play so much tougher. It is not just the pocket width. If you MUST go down this road of trying to do all this yourself: DO IT ON THE GC3 top....
Someone on here might spend the time explaining every detail of how to do all of this, but I am done after this post!


TFT
p.s. USE THE SEARCH OPTION ON HERE, THIS HAS BEEN DISCUSSED VERY HEAVILY: MANY TIMES!
 
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J

JamesTLeahy

New member
Thanks for your “friendly” advice. But unfortunately the luxury of being able to choose a table mechanic is not possible. In Norway there is 1 and he serves the whole country.. and it is him that is putting the new rails and top on my table.

I’m not interested in having the GC3 too as it builds to much over the pockets, whereas the GC5 top is flat and doesn’t build up over the pockets.

I’m not trying to get my table to play like a rasson or a diamond. I simply want tighter pockets so I get used to playing on tighter pockets. In Europe the standard is 142 +/- 1degree.

I’m getting the new top, cushions, rails, sides and simonis 760 cloth, installed for $800.. so no, I’m not going to go buy a tournament table.

What I would like to know is - looking at the picture I added, forgetting the fact that it’s a rasson table, does there need to be more support behind the cushion that is going well past the tables edge.

The use of caps lock isn’t necessary, I can read small letters just as well 👍🏼
 
T

TrxR

Well-known member
I could be wrong but I seem to think there is info on here that once a pockets gets below a certain size the angle will have to change a bit to keep it playable. I think it was anything under 4.5 but my memory might be off.

As for extra support, if the rails are properly extended the cushions should be supported just as much as they were before.

Look at this thread, there is alot of info on extending rails.

So What Does One Do When They Don't Have a Decent Local Mechanic...?

So, I have a table, new 860, and replacement K55 rails. What I don't have is a mechanic even remotely close to me that can do anything more than haphazardly wrap new cloth on existing equipment. My 4.5x9 table currently has dead rails, >5"...
forums.azbilliards.com
 
J

JamesTLeahy

New member
You’re right 😊 we have 6 olio tables at our club, with 3 varying playability difficulties. 2 are factory standard, 2 are 4.5 corners at 142 and 2 are very hard at 4.125” and 145deg, anything not pin point gets rejected. Rail first contact is out at anything faster than slow speed.
 
phreaticus

phreaticus

Well-known member
Hey James. Cool project, sounds like you and I have similar tastes in tables, IMO GC tops have gotten progressively better through 4/5/6 generations, but the older style legs/pedestals look cooler than the gen 5/6. Also sounds like you've got a hell of a great deal on that GC5 top, wow! It's a shame that the tool-from-toledo can't seem to provide a coherent, non condescending answer for you, given that this is the table mech forum, but that's pretty much the norm, sadly.

I'm no mechanic, but I'm pretty sure the short answer you're looking for is that with a corner pocket mouth size of 4.25" you'll probably want a pocket facing angle of 140°. Long answer follows... I have a GC6 TE with slightly wonky pockets (rattle balls worse than a witches titty in a brass bra in winter, which soured me on Brunswicks TE option), and spent a good bit time on AZB a while back trying to get educated on what really constitutes good pocket setup. Suggest you confirm, but it's what I've been able to glean from sifting through various AZB threads. I think this came from RKC (who seems to be MIA lately), @rexus31, and a few other helpful guys that have a lot of table experience.

The 142° (+/- 1 deg) corner pocket horizontal facing angle "standard" comes out of both BCA specs and WCA specs, but those facing angles are specified in conjunction with corner pocket mouth sizes of 5.0" (+/- 1/8") for BCA and 4-9/16" (+/- 1/16") for WCA, both of which are far more generous than the sizes we're talking about. Diamond's pro cut tables with 4.5” mouths apparently use a 141° pfa that Trent mentioned - which are widely considered by most folks to play superbly. Going below 4.5" corner mouths takes you out of the range of those specs and the throats/angles need to be reduced beyond that to maintain good playability. I think you'll find that your target spec of 4.25" corners with 142° may play tougher than you want; my GC6 TE corners came out as 4.3" ish with 143-144° ish angles (3.6" throats) from BW and essentially play about the same as some of the 4.0" tables I've played on, and not what I was after.

Apparently there is a linear rule of thumb that says that each reduction of 1/8" of corner pocket mouth size should correspond to 1° less on the pocket facing angle. The way I've interpreted this is that if we say BCA/WPA specs are roughly sane within their respective ranges and we know Diamond procuts play great - then let's call corner mouth size of 4.5" and PFA of 141° - to be the "baseline" for figuring out how to maintain good playabilty as we go smaller. Following the rule, this means your target 4-1/4" mouths are 2/8" less than baseline and should have 2° less on the facing angles, thus = 140°. Those are the specs I've also settled on for my own GC, if/when I get around to it. Following the example, 4-1/8" corners would choose 139°, 4.0" would use 138°, etc. There are a few old threads with inputs from smart table/room owners that seem to validate all this.

Hope I didn't mess that up, and that it helps. Good luck, please follow up with your build results and pics! I used to travel to Finland occasionally for work and to cave dive in the Ojamo mines - always wanted to get to Norway, but never made it. Next time I'm in your neighborhood, can I invite myself over for a work out on your home table?

Cheers✌️
 
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trentfromtoledo

trentfromtoledo

8onthebreaktoledo
Silver Member
gazman100 said:
"I’m getting the new top, cushions, rails, sides and Simonis 760 cloth, installed for $800.."

That is super cheap.
:)
Click to expand...
I was not sayin nothing, but since you did: I would be very very cautious of the "quality" of the work at that sort of price. But: I LIKE TO USE CAPS< SO WHAT DO I KNOW???? :)
TFT

P.s. if it sounds to good to be true: it usually IS!
 
J

JamesTLeahy

New member
trentfromtoledo said:
I was not sayin nothing, but since you did: I would be very very cautious of the "quality" of the work at that sort of price. But: I LIKE TO USE CAPS< SO WHAT DO I KNOW???? :)
TFT

P.s. if it sounds to good to be true: it usually IS!
Click to expand...
It’s more of a sign to how the used market works here in Norway. It is extremely different here compared to the US. Nobody buys anything used here unless it is very cheap.

I paid $1000 for my GC3. That included new cushions, simonis 860HR and installation.

I bought a Predator P3 with 314-3 shaft, in great condition, for $280 - I then sold it on eBay for $800. People simply just buy new here, which makes used an attractive market as far as I’m concerned.
 
T

The_JV

'AZB_Combat Certified'
TrxR said:
Look at this thread, there is alot of info on extending rails.

So What Does One Do When They Don't Have a Decent Local Mechanic...?

So, I have a table, new 860, and replacement K55 rails. What I don't have is a mechanic even remotely close to me that can do anything more than haphazardly wrap new cloth on existing equipment. My 4.5x9 table currently has dead rails, >5"...
forums.azbilliards.com
Click to expand...
JZMechanix said:
Here's some pics of the proper way to do the job. Hope this helps!

photos.app.goo.gl

AO GC III

23 new items · Album by Jack Zimmerman
photos.app.goo.gl photos.app.goo.gl
photos.app.goo.gl

Clark GC3

10 new items · Album by Jack Zimmerman
photos.app.goo.gl photos.app.goo.gl
photos.app.goo.gl

Gold Crown / Artemis

42 new items · Album by Jack Zimmerman
photos.app.goo.gl photos.app.goo.gl
Click to expand...
For what it's worth... I used example photos from JZMechanix as a primer for my project. I have followed some of his methods based on what I gleened from those pics.

Something not mentioned yet is the downward angle of the pocket facings. This angle appears to be driven mostly by the shelf depth, which is dependent on by the pocket point to point dimension and slate cut. Reducing pocket size will increase shelf depth. Pockets with a short shelf depth can be made to play more difficult by using less downward angle. As downward angle is increased, balls hit into the facings will shed energy into the slate and be more directed into the throat of the pocket.
 
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phreaticus

phreaticus

Well-known member
The_JV said:
For what it's worth... I used example photos from JZMechanix as a primer for my project. I have followed some of his methods based on what I gleened from those pics.

Something not mentioned yet is the downward angle of the pocket facings. This angle appears to be driven mostly by the shelf depth, which is dependent on by the pocket point to point dimension and slate cut. Reducing pocket size will increase shelf depth. Pockets with a short shelf depth can be made to play more difficult by using less downward angle. As downward angle is increased, balls hit into the facings will shed energy into the slate and be more directed into the throat of the pocket.
Click to expand...
Cool pics! I missed that other long thread about your home table rebuild, tons of good info in there, thx for sharing. Down angles and shelf depth stuff is still a bit of a knowledge gap for me. Do you know what Diamond’s “factory standard” specs
for down angle and shelf depth on their Pro Cut 4.5”/141 table? (Since I use that performance as a bit of a baseline) Thx
 
rexus31

rexus31

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
phreaticus said:
Cool pics! I missed that other long thread about your home table rebuild, tons of good info in there, thx for sharing. Down angles and shelf depth stuff is still a bit of a knowledge gap for me. Do you know what Diamond’s “factory standard” specs
for down angle and shelf depth on their Pro Cut 4.5”/141 table? (Since I use that performance as a bit of a baseline) Thx
Click to expand...
I think it is 13 degrees.
 
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