Tips... Are we fooling Ourselves?
- Thread starter Bobkitty
- Start date
Crawf, your post got me thinking about the true hardness of a layered cue tip. I too am worried about whether I’m hitting leather or glue (think of the “click” or “tink” sound made by well installed layered tips). Hardened glue is not leather; makes a soft tip hit and feel like a hard tip. I’d be more impressed with tip mfgs if they indicated the durometer ratings of layered tips after about a month of play. Another recent post on here hit the nail on the head with this - “What’s the difference between a Kamui soft and a Kamui hard tip? About a month”.
I've seen lots of info on hardness of plenty tips. Has anyone cut any tips off after use and recheck the hardness?
Seems like I've read that some folks claimed tips that remained the same throughout the life of the tip.
(Tom1234, sorry, I just read your post asking the same thing)
Seems like I've read that some folks claimed tips that remained the same throughout the life of the tip.
(Tom1234, sorry, I just read your post asking the same thing)
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One of the banner ads for shafts shows a layered tip. Very plain to see the layers and glue in that picture. Very obvious that the first time a tip tool is used it will take off the top of that tip which is only a few crumbs anyway. After that you are playing with glue on the inside, leather on the outside. Then as you work down you alternate, leather in the middle glue on the outside, glue in the middle leather on the outside. Some tip tools have longer points than the layers of a tip and many of them are hard on layered tips. People selling and installing layered tips should give some tools out for free. They eat layered tips faster than a beaver eats a willow sapling.
I measure and weigh single layer tips. That way when I put one on it is what it is supposed to be and it doesn't change until almost to the ferrule. I don't encounter any bad layers either which can cause brand new tips to rip half in two when shaping them or cause issues after they are sold.
Hu
One of the banner ads for shafts shows a layered tip. Very plain to see the layers and glue in that picture. Very obvious that the first time a tip tool is used it will take off the top of that tip which is only a few crumbs anyway. After that you are playing with glue on the inside, leather on the outside. Then as you work down you alternate, leather in the middle glue on the outside, glue in the middle leather on the outside. Some tip tools have longer points than the layers of a tip and many of them are hard on layered tips. People selling and installing layered tips should give some tools out for free. They eat layered tips faster than a beaver eats a willow sapling.
I measure and weigh single layer tips. That way when I put one on it is what it is supposed to be and it doesn't change until almost to the ferrule. I don't encounter any bad layers either which can cause brand new tips to rip half in two when shaping them or cause issues after they are sold.
Hu
Stephen Folan
Registered
This thread has me quite interested. I play with an Elk Master, and have been for about 15 years or so (I come from a snooker background and that's all I knew, and what I got used to). I play at a 736 speed, so take my opinion with a grain of salt, the top players are probably where they are because they've been able to harness the power that a layered tip has to offer, but here are my thoughts all the same.
Early on in my pool playing life, I switched to a Moori Medium and really noticed a difference in how much more "action" I got with it. I was able to draw the ball much more effortlessly, which I believed to be a great thing, because I could hit the ball with more control and not have to pound it, and still get a the cueball to do what I want. You would instantly think that this is a huge advantage over the cheaper tip and to a lot of degrees it is. However, something I haven't seen a lot of people talk about is the reduced accuracy that comes with a tip that gives you a ton of action. If I'm getting all that extra action "for free", it also means If I hit a ball "bad" with spin, I could throw it off line.
What I'm saying is, with the Elk master (or Le Pro, Triangle, other non "juicy" tips), I have more margin for error when pocketing balls. My style of game is based on throwing balls in, I believe it gives me a MUCH higher margin for error than simply hitting a ball with no spin. The fact that I get less "action" with my Elk Master means if I catch a ball thicker than I intended, the spin does a "little" correction and throws the ball in. With a layered tip, I find when I hit it bad like this, it gets thrown too much.
The long and the short of what i'm getting at, that I feel isn't addressed too much is, the more action you can get with a tip the more accurate you have to be when pocketing balls. Example, If you have an almost straight in shot and under pressure you put a hair of unwanted english on the cueball, guess what, the object ball can be thrown off line very easily. Tips like the Elk Master are far more forgiving. If I hit that straight in shot "bad" by putting a hair of unwanted english on the ball, luckily for me, not much spin has been imparted on the object ball and it still travels along the path I intended.
Don't get me wrong, every year or two, I get the itch to try out a "juicy" tip, and I do really fall in love with how easy some shots are to execute with all that tip power, however, the "forgivingness" I get from having "dull" tip really swings it for me and I usually end up cutting that $50 tip off after a few days. Sure, having easy access to the big draw shot and super spin are nice to have, but I believe it comes with trade-offs that aren't worth it. I can still come with the big draw shot (just takes more muscle), but if I'm in line the way I should be, I don't need to call on it too often.
Thanks for reading, I would be interested to hear opinions to my thoughts on the this topic
Early on in my pool playing life, I switched to a Moori Medium and really noticed a difference in how much more "action" I got with it. I was able to draw the ball much more effortlessly, which I believed to be a great thing, because I could hit the ball with more control and not have to pound it, and still get a the cueball to do what I want. You would instantly think that this is a huge advantage over the cheaper tip and to a lot of degrees it is. However, something I haven't seen a lot of people talk about is the reduced accuracy that comes with a tip that gives you a ton of action. If I'm getting all that extra action "for free", it also means If I hit a ball "bad" with spin, I could throw it off line.
What I'm saying is, with the Elk master (or Le Pro, Triangle, other non "juicy" tips), I have more margin for error when pocketing balls. My style of game is based on throwing balls in, I believe it gives me a MUCH higher margin for error than simply hitting a ball with no spin. The fact that I get less "action" with my Elk Master means if I catch a ball thicker than I intended, the spin does a "little" correction and throws the ball in. With a layered tip, I find when I hit it bad like this, it gets thrown too much.
The long and the short of what i'm getting at, that I feel isn't addressed too much is, the more action you can get with a tip the more accurate you have to be when pocketing balls. Example, If you have an almost straight in shot and under pressure you put a hair of unwanted english on the cueball, guess what, the object ball can be thrown off line very easily. Tips like the Elk Master are far more forgiving. If I hit that straight in shot "bad" by putting a hair of unwanted english on the ball, luckily for me, not much spin has been imparted on the object ball and it still travels along the path I intended.
Don't get me wrong, every year or two, I get the itch to try out a "juicy" tip, and I do really fall in love with how easy some shots are to execute with all that tip power, however, the "forgivingness" I get from having "dull" tip really swings it for me and I usually end up cutting that $50 tip off after a few days. Sure, having easy access to the big draw shot and super spin are nice to have, but I believe it comes with trade-offs that aren't worth it. I can still come with the big draw shot (just takes more muscle), but if I'm in line the way I should be, I don't need to call on it too often.
Thanks for reading, I would be interested to hear opinions to my thoughts on the this topic
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Stephen Folan
Registered
Oh, and one more thing. My Elk Master needs VERY little maintenance compared to a layered tip. Don't get me wrong, if the upsides of a layered tip made sense to me (if the juice was worth the squeeze), the extra maintenance wouldn't be an issue for me, but it's a nice bonus for the non layered tip
I seem to like the Predator Victory medium. I had them on a few of their spliced shafts. I do go for the Zan Grip Hard when re-tipping is needed..Best one to date for me.
False. A harder tip can produce slightly more power, but that has nothing to do with layers.
False. I’m interested to hear your basis for this belief.
pj
chgo
i'm pretty sure the snooker pros have good reasons for their tip choice, there's a lot on the line for them. but is it really true they all use traditional tips like elkmaster, le pro etc? i googled it and found that higgins uses/used kamui, as did robertson and williams..
anyway, i'm back to layered tips on my 314 after a milk dud detour. some korean brand now, medium.
anyway, i'm back to layered tips on my 314 after a milk dud detour. some korean brand now, medium.
snooker tips
Just a few years ago, ten or less, it seemed common to see any old piece of badly mushroomed leather on the end of a snooker stick. I notice all the tips seem to be immaculately shaped now and appear to be layered tips.
Just an observation from the few snooker matches I watch now and then.
Hu
Just a few years ago, ten or less, it seemed common to see any old piece of badly mushroomed leather on the end of a snooker stick. I notice all the tips seem to be immaculately shaped now and appear to be layered tips.
Just an observation from the few snooker matches I watch now and then.
Hu
the majority probably still uses pressed single layer tips and the mushroom style is actually a preference by some pros (their spare tips for match play are probably mushrooms as well). sounds weird to a pool player but then again, it's a different game with different cueing action. good tourney on now btw, grand prix
Stephen Folan
Registered
I've found personally that the layered tips I've tried in the past have been able to generate more spin than I can achieve with using an Elk Master. Perhaps not ALL layered tips. I've previously tried Moori M, G2, Zan premium Soft, Kamui M. This is just my personal experience. I do believe the manufacturer's of these tips also advertise that you can generate more spin than a regular non layered tip.
Regarding the issue about accuracy, if a tip gives you more spin more easily, the chance for you to throw a ball accidentally also increases, as the throwing power is increased.
Just my observations
JC
Coos Cues
I put on a triangle the other day from a box of 50 I had and it was like belly fat hide it was so soft.
I also don't like the color of triangle tips when you burnish the edges.
JC
Then I'm not the only one. I love Triangle tips but they never burnish like pictured in the in the brochure, so to speak.
Mine get hard pressed first.
I heard of one cue maker that throws a box of 50 in a tub of water. He keeps the ones that sink. With the cost of Triangles, losing a few is no big deal. What are they about 40 bucks for 50 tips?
Is it hypocritical to put a Triangle tip ($1) on a Revo shaft ($500)?
Something just doesn't seem right about it. I think the Revo must play better with an expensive Kamui tip.
What you could be seeing is a little more power transmitted through a firmer tip, which produces more spin and more speed. Like adding a little speed to your stroke - not like hitting farther from center. Sounds like semantics, but the distinction can make a difference in how the CB acts.I've found personally that the layered tips I've tried in the past have been able to generate more spin than I can achieve with using an Elk Master. Perhaps not ALL layered tips. I've previously tried Moori M, G2, Zan premium Soft, Kamui M. This is just my personal experience. I do believe the manufacturer's of these tips also advertise that you can generate more spin than a regular non layered tip.
Regarding the issue about accuracy, if a tip gives you more spin more easily, the chance for you to throw a ball accidentally also increases, as the throwing power is increased.
Just my observations
pj
chgo
So, John, you don't like layered tips, but you now like SIB Pro, which is a layered tip? I'm assuming SIB uses no glue between layers
lol
Good post. Layered tips wear better, at least mine do because I use medium hard tips, not soft or super soft. I shape it one time and it lasts, and it burnishes just fine, nice and shiny.