It applies to everyone, even your friends. No one likes to be shorted.
touch up points
- Thread starter bman43
- Start date
It applies to everyone, even your friends. No one likes to be shorted.
Eric. If you look at the time line youll see the man already made an attempt at covering up the void in the point.
At 5:06pm hes asking what he should touch it up with. At 9:53pm hes saying he filled it with epoxy and pigment and
asking should he use a marker or something. Theres no way epoxy with pigment is going to cure in <5 hours enough to
sand and reach its final color.
Its crystal clear that hes already filled the void and now looking for a way to blend the color in. Wonder where he got
the idea of using a marker. Surely it wouldnt be from reading comments on this forum.
If the void showed up on the final turn like he says then chances are huge that the condition is more than just a small void.
Look at the simple geometry of the point blank and the groove. If the void shows up on a final turn something is dead wrong.
Either the point blank isnt seated right in the groove or its cut to greater than 90 degrees. That could easily mean there are
more voids under the point blank that surface filling with epoxy isnt going to correct.
I think your heart was in teh right place when you offered the advice but maybe you were just a little too quick in pulling the trigger.
It seems the man is fairly new to making cues and felt it wasnt such a big deal. It sucks to have to remake a cue but in the long run
he will be a better cue maker if he first decides what caused the problem and is able to avoid making the same mistake in the future.
Ok. Maybe that didnt answer your question of why is that something a customer shouldnt see but its all Im going to offer.
It doesnt matter if the customer is paying $1 or $1000 they deserve good workmanship for their money. Im well aware that
mistakes can and will be made building cues. Anything the human hand touches can be messed up. The key is correcting
the mistakes not covering them up.
No. I dont know of a better way to make this repair and I dont think I would try it if I did. I dont think a new cue under construction
should have to be repaired. I think Eric called it detail work and yeah I'll go along with very minor stuff. But points happen to be a structural
part of a cue.
Just because some cue makers do it means everyone should? I cant agree with that. Theres way too mcuh of that going on as it is.
By the way. You still havent answered my question - Youre suggesting that covering a void in a point using a marker is acceptable?
Good post KJ. I didnt mean to sound like I was passing moral judgement if thats the way it came across. Im just as critical of myself or more believe it or not.
"
I didn't answer your question as it is a waste of time. It might be acceptable if it was possible but your question makes no more sense than the rest of your post. If there is a void then there is no material. You can use your marker to your hearts content but your not going to color air. As far as putting color into the filler (epoxy), so that it matches the point does not affect the strength of the repair in the least but makes it look much better. Apparently you feel it is OK to use the epoxy for the repair but you want it to stand out. The use of the epoxy will make the cue as just as strong as if the glue had never wicked away in the first place. Just why not make it look good at the same time? Don't wood workers use stain daily on projects just to make them look better?
Dick
cant go by the time line
i had already filled the void with pigment and epoxy before the original post.ive had voids before but never on the last pass.it is small.very small.in the future i will not post a question like this.way to many opinions on my work and the touchup.i have made many cues and my work speaks for its self.i know a lot of well known cuemakers that have helped me with a phone call.by the way a well known cuemaker sent me a pm and suggested i delete this question.i have never met him.he told me to call him in the future if i have any questions because asking a legitimate question like this is sure to ruin your reputation on ask the cuemaker.
to those who suggested a fix i thank you. brian
i had already filled the void with pigment and epoxy before the original post.ive had voids before but never on the last pass.it is small.very small.in the future i will not post a question like this.way to many opinions on my work and the touchup.i have made many cues and my work speaks for its self.i know a lot of well known cuemakers that have helped me with a phone call.by the way a well known cuemaker sent me a pm and suggested i delete this question.i have never met him.he told me to call him in the future if i have any questions because asking a legitimate question like this is sure to ruin your reputation on ask the cuemaker.
to those who suggested a fix i thank you. brian
I agree with Eric here....I have had a cpl of his cues and hope to have a few more :wink: (hint hint) I have a new ST cue right now, and just for chits and giggles, i took a magnifying glass out to inspect the cue...I did find a flaw in my cue and seen how Eric had fixed it. It was so small, and the work it took to fix it was done very well. I dont fault him at all for this because it was not even noticeable untill I really got down on it and looked. I think if it was something like a huge eyesore, he would have told me and we would have decided on what needed to be done, or he would have redone that 1 particular piece. I dont think he would put anything out that would hurt his reputation....and I dont think most reputable cuemakers on here would either. I think if they can fix it to where its not noticeable, they will. Your a human, and your working with materials that can and will move and are sometimes fragile.
As far as the sharpie... me personally, I dont think if I was a cuebuilder, I would even try that...but Im not a cuebuilder, but trying to learn...But, lets say a cuemaker is making me a cue and he said the point had to be touched up with a sharpie....well, me personally I wouldnt want that particular cue...but thats just me. Now the ebony dust in the epoxy sounds more resonable to me
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And also.....if I have the cue for a week or so, and the cue plays exceptional...and my silly ass takes a magnifying glass to inspect flaws and I find 1 or 2 minor flaws...what the hell...cue plays great, looks great....its my silly asses fault for breaking out a magnifying glass...:grin:
TellItLikeItIs, I agree whole heartedly that a gap from the point not seating square should be looked into more so than just filling. I just didn't get that impression with the original post. I read it as something I have seen hundreds of times, a minor chip out in the front end of a point. Admittedly, I don't pay attention to when people post things.
As for the marker, they don't work. They smear & they show up as a glow under black light. I actually seen a collector doing this to look at inlays. They are dark blue, not true black, anyway. I do things a little differently, but that's for another thread.
As for the marker, they don't work. They smear & they show up as a glow under black light. I actually seen a collector doing this to look at inlays. They are dark blue, not true black, anyway. I do things a little differently, but that's for another thread.
by the way...
the void is about 3/16 long and very thin and about 3/8 from the point which is sharp.at this point i was trying to darken the epoxy that was tinted and used to fill in the small void.you guys make it seem like im taping the point off and going to town with a sharpee. lol i guess it was an air pocket a very small one.sad thing is ive mixed ebony dust up before to repair cues.i thought the pigment would do a perfect job.like i said before first time ive ever seen this on final pass.
the void is about 3/16 long and very thin and about 3/8 from the point which is sharp.at this point i was trying to darken the epoxy that was tinted and used to fill in the small void.you guys make it seem like im taping the point off and going to town with a sharpee. lol i guess it was an air pocket a very small one.sad thing is ive mixed ebony dust up before to repair cues.i thought the pigment would do a perfect job.like i said before first time ive ever seen this on final pass.
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If a small imperfection like the one described could possibly be structural, I'll eat my hat. To suggest such a thing is liken to sitting at a pool hall and waiting for house cues to fall apart in people's hands. I've learned at this poor guy's expense that sound questions are best asked in private, even if the shared knowledge would benefit others.
I suppose more details initially could have prevented the "inevitable catastrophic failure" conclusion, but a question could have also be asked before typing.
Who looks at cues under a black light? Not trying to be rude. Honestly.
It may be of interest to you that every "black" paint I ever mixed with toner had several different colors in it in addition to black. My Mustang had seven, including pink.
This thread is the quintessential mother-load, the holy grail and the ultimate epitome all rolled into one convenient little package.
This is the type of thread that causes CMs to leave this forum. Plain & simple.
There should never be reason whatsoever that a CM can't come here and ask ANY type of question about a cue of a fellow CM and do it without the risk of jeopardizing ones reputation, integrity or credibility. The CMs that are gentlemen don't do or allow that.
With your permission, I'm going to go ahead and acknowledge the elephant in the room. I have noticed a trend.
Many a CM comes here and asks a question and maybe several CMs will help him out and that will be it. On to the next subject.
Regrettably it's when those who are NOT CMs start offering opinions or in this case, calling a method or technique into question, that the fireworks start. This can be very damaging.
It has gotten to the point now where reputable CMs will forgo offering their knowledge and experience for fear of being toasted for trying to help.
I see their point very well. I also see that the integrity and knowledge base of this forum will suffer for it. God only knows how much has been lost already.
This has got to stop!
This is "ASK THE CUE-MAKER". It says so right on the front door.
This is not 'what's your best guess from whoever happens to be passing by'.
This is an exclusive section. It belongs to the professional CMs who unselfishly give their time and knowledge to help people understand what is happening with their cue when they are having a problem.
This is also where CMs share their knowledge and ideas with their fellow tradesmen in hopes of advancing our craft and increasing personal knowledge.
Only when CMs and CMs alone are allowed to respond to questions will integrity begin the restore itself.
I wouldn't have wasted everyone's time for this long if I didn't have a possible solution. I've been thinking about this for about a year now but have been hesitant to suggest it because it might seem like too big of a move.
What I'm suggesting is what I've already said, only CMs be allowed to answer questions in the CMs section. Any one can view posts and anyone can ask questions by starting their own thread. Only CMs will be allowed to respond.
Any CM willing to participate in this format would be required to have a 'cookie' placed on their PC for identification purposes. This is where the 'mods' come in. There would have to be a verification process (to be decided upon) and a 'cookie' placed on your PC by AZB tech staff.
Very small price to pay to give this forum the integrity it deserves.
Look, I'm tired of the fighting and back-biting that goes on here and I'm sure a lot of others are as well. It's not going to stop just by wishing it weren't so. If you want it to change, then be that change; make your voice heard.
What will change is that the forum will become more professional and the responses given will be more accurate as they will be coming from years of experience and given by people whose sole motivation is to help.
'Tellsit', you are going to be thought of in this post so might as well get after it. Sorry to use you as an example but you happen to be close and relevant.
I don't think that you made your initial post with any thought of helping the OP, not in the direction he was looking anyway. You're not a CM so how could you help him? I know what he was feeling; he NEEDED help. Honestly, all you were qualified to offer was your opinion. As it turns out, it wasn't so helpful. Trust me, you alone are not the impetus for this post. You are 1 of 100s. I've been watching this same scenario for a couple of years now and this just seems like the right time and place to start working on a solution. I hope you understand. It's not about you personally. It's about the way things exist as they are now.
The only reason that I'm offering this solution is because that I care about what goes on here. I'm really not interested in an alternative 'private' CMs forum. In my opinion, that's only running away from the problem. There are sufficient tools in place to deal with the problems that we have and they are already in place. They merely need to be activated.
Any thoughts? Mods are also welcome to respond.
This is the type of thread that causes CMs to leave this forum. Plain & simple.
There should never be reason whatsoever that a CM can't come here and ask ANY type of question about a cue of a fellow CM and do it without the risk of jeopardizing ones reputation, integrity or credibility. The CMs that are gentlemen don't do or allow that.
With your permission, I'm going to go ahead and acknowledge the elephant in the room. I have noticed a trend.
Many a CM comes here and asks a question and maybe several CMs will help him out and that will be it. On to the next subject.
Regrettably it's when those who are NOT CMs start offering opinions or in this case, calling a method or technique into question, that the fireworks start. This can be very damaging.
It has gotten to the point now where reputable CMs will forgo offering their knowledge and experience for fear of being toasted for trying to help.
I see their point very well. I also see that the integrity and knowledge base of this forum will suffer for it. God only knows how much has been lost already.
This has got to stop!
This is "ASK THE CUE-MAKER". It says so right on the front door.
This is not 'what's your best guess from whoever happens to be passing by'.
This is an exclusive section. It belongs to the professional CMs who unselfishly give their time and knowledge to help people understand what is happening with their cue when they are having a problem.
This is also where CMs share their knowledge and ideas with their fellow tradesmen in hopes of advancing our craft and increasing personal knowledge.
Only when CMs and CMs alone are allowed to respond to questions will integrity begin the restore itself.
I wouldn't have wasted everyone's time for this long if I didn't have a possible solution. I've been thinking about this for about a year now but have been hesitant to suggest it because it might seem like too big of a move.
What I'm suggesting is what I've already said, only CMs be allowed to answer questions in the CMs section. Any one can view posts and anyone can ask questions by starting their own thread. Only CMs will be allowed to respond.
Any CM willing to participate in this format would be required to have a 'cookie' placed on their PC for identification purposes. This is where the 'mods' come in. There would have to be a verification process (to be decided upon) and a 'cookie' placed on your PC by AZB tech staff.
Very small price to pay to give this forum the integrity it deserves.
Look, I'm tired of the fighting and back-biting that goes on here and I'm sure a lot of others are as well. It's not going to stop just by wishing it weren't so. If you want it to change, then be that change; make your voice heard.
What will change is that the forum will become more professional and the responses given will be more accurate as they will be coming from years of experience and given by people whose sole motivation is to help.
'Tellsit', you are going to be thought of in this post so might as well get after it. Sorry to use you as an example but you happen to be close and relevant.
I don't think that you made your initial post with any thought of helping the OP, not in the direction he was looking anyway. You're not a CM so how could you help him? I know what he was feeling; he NEEDED help. Honestly, all you were qualified to offer was your opinion. As it turns out, it wasn't so helpful. Trust me, you alone are not the impetus for this post. You are 1 of 100s. I've been watching this same scenario for a couple of years now and this just seems like the right time and place to start working on a solution. I hope you understand. It's not about you personally. It's about the way things exist as they are now.
The only reason that I'm offering this solution is because that I care about what goes on here. I'm really not interested in an alternative 'private' CMs forum. In my opinion, that's only running away from the problem. There are sufficient tools in place to deal with the problems that we have and they are already in place. They merely need to be activated.
Any thoughts? Mods are also welcome to respond.
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I think TellsItLikeItIs has helped the OP and open up eyes for cuemakers and consumers. What he posted was right. If the cutting of the points and grooves are Square, there shouldn't be any void.
Eric and most CM misread / misunderstood the OP and offered their advice which was the right thing to do. I don't see any CM reputation being ruined here. Eric advice was a simple Cosmetic touch-up and not to cover up structural integrity of the cue. TellsItLikeItIs has misunderstood Eric intention. To the original OP, follow what Tony Z done, He build a new cue for his customer just because of very very minor cosmetic issue that was pickup by a high resolution camera, your customer will understand. Check your equipment or get some help, like what TellsItLikeItIs pointed out, you must have done something wrong during construction. Everything from start to end was a misunderstanding. Hopefully TellsItLikeItIs and all the CM could make up.
p/s-
IF you see a kid drowning in a river, would you wait for a lifeguard or call 911 to save the kid? :wink: cheers
well put kj
i have been going on ask the cuemaker for about 2 years. i never registered till a couple of months ago or so.i stopped going on for awhile because of all the bickering.its a shame for things to get like this cause i think a forum for cuemakers to discuss issues that come up with building cues can be a plus for us all.i know a lot of cuemakers that have helped me over the years.they have always talked to me with respect and never assumed i was a hack.some have seen my cues and non have said anything bad about one of them.to say the void was obviously there before the handle was attached,the time line of my post proves i rushed it.and so on.all are dead wrong assumptions.the point still looks good just a little lighter in one spot.most people wouldnt even notice it.it wont even stand out.but i will see it everytime.i know i am making a bigger deal of it than it really is.but it is in my nature to try and make the cue as flawless as possible as i am sure every cm does.i only sign my cues when the customer really wants it cause my signature in my opinion isnt nice enouph to be on my cues.lol and my wifes hand writing is great but to girly.in the future i will carefully ask questions rather the just throw out a question that can start this type of banter that gets me defending my work.those question will go to cms i have a relationship with already that have never questioned my work or integrity.
i have been going on ask the cuemaker for about 2 years. i never registered till a couple of months ago or so.i stopped going on for awhile because of all the bickering.its a shame for things to get like this cause i think a forum for cuemakers to discuss issues that come up with building cues can be a plus for us all.i know a lot of cuemakers that have helped me over the years.they have always talked to me with respect and never assumed i was a hack.some have seen my cues and non have said anything bad about one of them.to say the void was obviously there before the handle was attached,the time line of my post proves i rushed it.and so on.all are dead wrong assumptions.the point still looks good just a little lighter in one spot.most people wouldnt even notice it.it wont even stand out.but i will see it everytime.i know i am making a bigger deal of it than it really is.but it is in my nature to try and make the cue as flawless as possible as i am sure every cm does.i only sign my cues when the customer really wants it cause my signature in my opinion isnt nice enouph to be on my cues.lol and my wifes hand writing is great but to girly.in the future i will carefully ask questions rather the just throw out a question that can start this type of banter that gets me defending my work.those question will go to cms i have a relationship with already that have never questioned my work or integrity.
read on iceman
again with my construction was done wrong? not buying that. way to small a void. for whatever reason a small area didnt take glue.put way to many points in way to many cues to not know that.if the groove and points didnt mate so square there would be a bigger glue line.this is basically a small dry spot.and no i dont think tellitlikeitis helped me making assumptions on what was done.i would have asked did u do this or did u do that,not obviously i did this, and by the timeline i obviously did that.i think there has been enough on this thread.lets move on. i will try to not start another fire again
again with my construction was done wrong? not buying that. way to small a void. for whatever reason a small area didnt take glue.put way to many points in way to many cues to not know that.if the groove and points didnt mate so square there would be a bigger glue line.this is basically a small dry spot.and no i dont think tellitlikeitis helped me making assumptions on what was done.i would have asked did u do this or did u do that,not obviously i did this, and by the timeline i obviously did that.i think there has been enough on this thread.lets move on. i will try to not start another fire again
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One way to shut up some of these " responders' Is What do they do for a living, and how do they fix their Issues that come up????? How would they like us to respond to their issues in their proffession? It's very easy for a NON-cuemaker to tell a cuemaker how THEY believe it should be done, But How about we tell you how to do YOUR day Job for a awhile????
How would they like it? I bet they would have 1000's of excuses as to how our responses wouldn't work, as we don't understand what they do and how it needs to be done........
How many Here work in the car industry? (I know quite a few that do) And how many issues get covered up in the course of your work??? A customer will pay $20,000 + for a car/truck that has already been thru repair, from the factory, and don't even know it. How can you then come on here and demand perfection in a $1000 cue without any slight retouching when nature comes calling????? Considering that we're dealing with natural materials which can and will move or chip or crack, and you are dealing with metal???
IMO, some of these people need a reality check before responding to threads they have NO BUSINESS responding to.
JMO as always,
Dave
How would they like it? I bet they would have 1000's of excuses as to how our responses wouldn't work, as we don't understand what they do and how it needs to be done........
How many Here work in the car industry? (I know quite a few that do) And how many issues get covered up in the course of your work??? A customer will pay $20,000 + for a car/truck that has already been thru repair, from the factory, and don't even know it. How can you then come on here and demand perfection in a $1000 cue without any slight retouching when nature comes calling????? Considering that we're dealing with natural materials which can and will move or chip or crack, and you are dealing with metal???
IMO, some of these people need a reality check before responding to threads they have NO BUSINESS responding to.
JMO as always,
Dave
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IMO, you're completely out of line. Who are you anyway? Most people responding are either cuemakers or customers so I think we all have a right to espouse our opinion.
STFU...that's real nice, considering this is a topic that people seem interested in.
IMO
Please read above posts.
People should not ESPOUSE if they do not know what they are ESPOUSING about.
And ya know Koop, your post to Dave is exactly what he, KJ and Dick are talking about.
People should not ESPOUSE if they do not know what they are ESPOUSING about.
And ya know Koop, your post to Dave is exactly what he, KJ and Dick are talking about.
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No, of course not.
But I wouldn't stand over him telling him he shouldn't have eaten the sandwich before going for a swim either.
I'm sorry but your analogy is a bit vague to me so I'm not sure of the point you're trying to make. What I do understand is that you're defending the post of someone who shouldn't have been posting here in the first place.
No problem KJ. Whether or not I understand would be my burden not yours and I dont take it personally. Why should I.
I stated my thoughts and feelings and they are exactly that. My thoughts and feelings. Just as youre allowed to
express yours so was I.
But thats not why Im replying to you. The following is.
Youre right. Im no longer a cue maker. I retired from it February this year for health reasons and then moved on to buying.
Will I look back? Probably not except to reflect on how cues should be built. Point being. In this thread I spoke as a
buyer with direct cue making experience. A buyer that can and will overlook small imperfections since cues are a man made item.
Will I overlook fillers and markers? I believe the answer to that should be fairly obvious. Ill continue to enjoy doing
business with cue makers that dont need to fill or mark or condone it. Contrary to what has been said there are a lot of them
that dont need to use those methods.
To close.
I encourage you to go forward with your idea. Ill be one of the first to support it by refraining from any further posts or comments.
On any subject. Obviously I see things differently than some as I dont believe in coddling or placing a stamp of approval on
certain methods that I feel degenerate the trade.
Good luck to all