Tournament players only

[JoeyA]

This is a question for ONLY those of you who play in pool tournaments.

In a local or regional 9 ball tournament with a $40 entry fee, would you rather play in a tournament where an elite player (top professional) was going to play in it?

Or would you prefer to NOT HAVE an elite player (top professional) play in the event?

Thanks,
JoeyA

P.S. I will see if I can make this into a public poll.

 

[JoeyA]

I'm very curious about your most candid answers. You won't get any heat from me one way or another. I see both sides of the coin but want to hear your honest opinions.

THANKS,
JoeyA

 

[Floppage]

Once or twice a year, I'm totally fine with a tournament where someone like Oscar or Shane is going to wipe the table with me. It creates a different kind of pressure and excitement around the event.

More often than that would start to get a little old pretty fast.

 

[JoeyA]

Once or twice a year, I'm totally fine with a tournament where someone like Oscar or Shane is going to wipe the table with me. It creates a different kind of pressure and excitement around the event.

More often than that would start to get a little old pretty fast.

Good points.

Thanks,

JoeyA

 

[Diamond69]

Here are my thoughts. Note that we do have Larry Nevel, and more recently Dennis Orcullo in Wisconsin.

I'm all for it. I don't expect to win in the fields I play in, so it's a chance to watch and perhaps get to play them, which a lot of people don't get that chance.

That being said, it can sure ruin a calcutta. Caused some drama just last weekend when Dennis went for $800+ in a 39 player field. Not sure what Larry went for. But it quickly dropped to $20 players, which created a huge risk/reward issue (i.e. no payout value) for the top 2.

Of course one of the cheaper players got to the finals, so his buyer was certainly happy.

The bigger concern is if it will kill the tourney if they are both in monthly. I guess that is a wait and see.

 

[cookie man]

I wouldn't want one pro that just wins every month. Either no pros or have 5 or 6. I just think the same guy winning gets old.

 

[Neil]

If it's the occasional tournament, like we have here with the Grand Rapids Open which is once a year, then I have no problem with it at all. In fact, I welcome them in it. However, if it is a monthly or weekly tournament, then they should be handicapped enough that they can't win it all the time.

 

[Zphix]

Here are my thoughts. Note that we do have Larry Nevel, and more recently Dennis Orcullo in Wisconsin.

I'm all for it. I don't expect to win in the fields I play in, so it's a chance to watch and perhaps get to play them, which a lot of people don't get that chance.

That being said, it can sure ruin a calcutta. Caused some drama just last weekend when Dennis went for $800+ in a 39 player field. Not sure what Larry went for. But it quickly dropped to $20 players, which created a huge risk/reward issue (i.e. no payout value) for the top 2.

Of course one of the cheaper players got to the finals, so his buyer was certainly happy.

The bigger concern is if it will kill the tourney if they are both in monthly. I guess that is a wait and see.

Heard about this all over. What exactly happened? I know Coles was so upset that he ended up not playing and I keep hearing that Dennis/John aren't very welcomed right now.

 

[Diamond69]

Heard about this all over. What exactly happened? I know Coles was so upset that he ended up not playing and I keep hearing that Dennis/John aren't very welcomed right now.

I'm sure you saw the post on FB. That's about the extent of my knowledge. I wasn't there but was messaging with some that were. Takes a lot to get Dave heated as he is such a class act. Dave's well respected and won't take shit from nobody, including top pros.

 

[chevybob20]

I chose "not allow" but if this is a once or twice a year event, I would choose to allow them and I would play. I just don't feel like donating monthly.

Edited to add: I'm assuming that this is non-handicapped. If this is properly handicapped the let all pros play.

 

[GoPlayPool]

Great question Joey!

Here in California:
Oscar, Ernesto, Rodney, Amar Kang, Vilmos, Mika (seasonal) (just to mention some names)are regulars at our Sunday and/or monthly events, $30 entry! Very minimal handicap!

But.. for an upcoming player, level B's and below, they shouldn't worry about any pros or semi pros in the house. Most times those pros don't get involved in a $10-$15 regular weekly tourney.

Personally, (Ramin), I would love to have them in regular tourneys weekly and any player that is just there to have fun, they play league anyways, so they have nothing to worry about and the rest of them: What an amazing opportunity to play or be next to a top notch player or just watch them! Are you kidding?

Happy New Year to you and yours and rest of the AZB gang! :thumbup:

 

[poolpro2]

I tell people all the time...

I can't go play catch with Ken Griffey Jr, or shoot baskets with Michael Jordan.

But for $40, $75, maybe $100 - I can possibly play with, and/or against their equivalents in the pool world. Not to mention basically hang around them for a couple of days.

To me, I want to measure myself against them. Seeing just how good they are inspires me. I get bummed signing up for a tourny like that and then only playing people I could play every day.

If it is a problem for a weekly, just say "no pros allowed". Or open it up only once a month for them.

 

[Black Cat 5791]

I would not want to do it on a Regular Basis, ie: every month unless the event started to lean in that direction with several Top Level Players competing each month. That way you could have a good Pro-Am mixture, 1 Heavy Hitter always coming in and cleaning house will kill an event.

Black Cat

 

[JoeyA]

The champions when the visit your town, don't stay around for a long time, so to get a chance to see them in person playing this great sport is a lot of fun but to have a chance to play them in person , well that's over the moon.

Once or twice a year, I'm totally fine with a tournament where someone like Oscar or Shane is going to wipe the table with me. It creates a different kind of pressure and excitement around the event.

More often than that would start to get a little old pretty fast.

I'm not sure if having a champion hurts the Calcutta or not. The fact is most of us aren't going to win the event and when one of the underdogs takes it to the champion, the local pool town gains some vitality. The champions aren't immortal. They can be beat. Getting used to the fear of their prowess is an ongoing process.

Here are my thoughts. Note that we do have Larry Nevel, and more recently Dennis Orcullo in Wisconsin.

I'm all for it. I don't expect to win in the fields I play in, so it's a chance to watch and perhaps get to play them, which a lot of people don't get that chance.

That being said, it can sure ruin a calcutta. Caused some drama just last weekend when Dennis went for $800+ in a 39 player field. Not sure what Larry went for. But it quickly dropped to $20 players, which created a huge risk/reward issue (i.e. no payout value) for the top 2.

Of course one of the cheaper players got to the finals, so his buyer was certainly happy.

The bigger concern is if it will kill the tourney if they are both in monthly. I guess that is a wait and see.

I agree, the same pro winning every month will surely get old. I think a new pro should come through town each month.

I wouldn't want one pro that just wins every month. Either no pros or have 5 or 6. I just think the same guy winning gets old.

Handicaps have their place in pool for sure. But when a champion comes in from out of town for a quick visit and a short stay, anyone who plays in a tournament should get out and support the event and have their measure taken. It isn't easy taking a beating but if you're ever going to get better, you're going to have to take a beating every now and then, just so you know where you stand. Deceiving yourself about your skills because you win a handicapped tournament isn't being fair to yourself.

If it's the occasional tournament, like we have here with the Grand Rapids Open which is once a year, then I have no problem with it at all. In fact, I welcome them in it. However, if it is a monthly or weekly tournament, then they should be handicapped enough that they can't win it all the time.

About 1/3 of the people chose "not allow" and I'm cool with that. I think if more champions gave back to the sport (to the other players in the events where they dominate, they might be even more welcomed). Donating monthly is no fun but if you gain something in those monthly beatings, you have made an investment in your game.

I've taken a lot of whippings from champions over the years and it has helped to develop me as a player. I've also had the opportunity to get lucky and beat a few of them over the years. EVERYONE has an off day every now and then and you just have to catch them on that day before you realize that they aren't invincible. And when you do win, or even when you lose but put up a great battle, you will feel better about yourself, not only as a player but as a person and you will gain their respect, reluctant or not.

I chose "not allow" but if this is a once or twice a year event, I would choose to allow them and I would play. I just don't feel like donating monthly.

Yes, no handicap.
Edited to add: I'm assuming that this is non-handicapped. If this is properly handicapped the let all pros play.

You're right. HOW AMAZING IS IT THAT YOU CAN GET INTO AN EVENT WITH THE BEST IN THE WORLD for $40? We are very lucky in pool that we can actually play against the best in the world.

Here in California:
Oscar, Ernesto, Rodney, Amar Kang, Vilmos, Mika (seasonal) (just to mention some names)are regulars at our Sunday and/or monthly events, $30 entry! Very minimal handicap!

But.. for an upcoming player, level B's and below, they shouldn't worry about any pros or semi pros in the house. Most times those pros don't get involved in a $10-$15 regular weekly tourney.

Personally, (Ramin), I would love to have them in regular tourneys weekly and any player that is just there to have fun, they play league anyways, so they have nothing to worry about and the rest of them: What an amazing opportunity to play or be next to a top notch player or just watch them! Are you kidding?

Happy New Year to you and yours and rest of the AZB gang! :thumbup:

That's right. It's a great privilege to play against the BEST IN YOUR SPORT, that you enjoy.

I can't go play catch with Ken Griffey Jr, or shoot baskets with Michael Jordan.

But for $40, $75, maybe $100 - I can possibly play with, and/or against their equivalents in the pool world. Not to mention basically hang around them for a couple of days.

To me, I want to measure myself against them. Seeing just how good they are inspires me. I get bummed signing up for a tourny like that and then only playing people I could play every day.

If it is a problem for a weekly, just say "no pros allowed". Or open it up only once a month for them.

The neat thing is the ELITE PLAYERS aren't in town on a Regular Basis, so I suggest allowing them to play to find out just how your skills match up man to man or competitor to competitor.

I would not want to do it on a Regular Basis, ie: every month unless the event started to lean in that direction with several Top Level Players competing each month. That way you could have a good Pro-Am mixture, 1 Heavy Hitter always coming in and cleaning house will kill an event.

Black Cat

Thanks to all who wrote!

JoeyA

 

[dardusm]

Here are my thoughts. Note that we do have Larry Nevel, and more recently Dennis Orcullo in Wisconsin.

I'm all for it. I don't expect to win in the fields I play in, so it's a chance to watch and perhaps get to play them, which a lot of people don't get that chance.

That being said, it can sure ruin a calcutta. Caused some drama just last weekend when Dennis went for $800+ in a 39 player field. Not sure what Larry went for. But it quickly dropped to $20 players, which created a huge risk/reward issue (i.e. no payout value) for the top 2.

Of course one of the cheaper players got to the finals, so his buyer was certainly happy.

The bigger concern is if it will kill the tourney if they are both in monthly. I guess that is a wait and see.

One time several years ago, I played in a tournament where one of the better players went for 250 in the auction. The next highest player (which was the best player) went for 40. Two guys that were drunk just kept bidding and bidding without understanding the ramifications of their bids. The final outcome was that 1st paid 200 and was won by the 40 player. The 250 player did finish 2nd which paid around 125.

Personally, I love the challenge of top players playing. It's really no different from the same guys winning a local weekly tournament. It's a bit of a tricky situation. If a handicap is completely fair and everyone wins the same amount of the time, where is the incentive to improve? I've seen it both ways.

In a healthy environment, there will be options for open and handicapped tournaments. Also, a good B even C tournament can be beneficial. But, when handicapping a tournament, there is almost always someone who isn't happy. Fargo Rate looks to be solid but there needs to be incentives for players to improve otherwise they will dump certain matches to keep ratings low and then win when it's to their biggest advantage. There is always a way to sandbag even with an ELO based system.

https://books.google.com/books?id=-...epage&q=sandbagging elo rating system&f=false

How do we keep players wanting to improve and not penalize them for doing so?

 

[Johnnyt]

I never played in a major tournament or many regional ones either. I played in bar tournaments that were weekly or monthly and I can tell you 95% of the other players DID NOT WANT pros clubbing us baby seals.

PS: I always tried to come in 2nd, 3rd, or 4th. The bigger money was after the tournament if you new how to hustle and bark at the right guys. Johnnyt

 

[trob]

$20 is worth it to me to play a pro and the get the experience. I do find it sad that they have to play in these small local tournaments to make a living You don't find pro golfers showing up for the local briarwood york county championship. Maybe some day we will have a real tour for them.

 

[Donny Lutz]

Third option

This is a question for ONLY those of you who play in pool tournaments.

In a local or regional 9 ball tournament with a $40 entry fee, would you rather play in a tournament where an elite player (top professional) was going to play in it?

Or would you prefer to NOT HAVE an elite player (top professional) play in the event?

Thanks,
JoeyA

P.S. I will see if I can make this into a public poll.

There is of course, a third option. Offer both...one event restricted to non-pros and one "open". Many venues have been doing this forever.

 

[miscrewed89]

Both...

As a tournament director, I have found the answer to this question is quite elusive, and players are very fickle in their opinions as well!
I run a weekly big table tournament which started as a non handicapped tournament. There were 2 local guys who seemed to win it nearly every week. Then, a few top notch players started showing up and I handicapped them by making them go to 7 instead of 5 with my alternate break format. All that accomplished was to drag my tournament out for a couple more hours when there were 2 or 3 of those guys in it. It didn't seem to matter to how many games I made Jamie go, he would win every time. Benny, on the other hand, couldn't seem to handle giving up the games and would crack to weaker players who would beat him to 5!
As my tournament numbers started to dwindle and I could hear the players grumbling a bit, I developed a handicap system to try and level the playing field for all. Now, remember those 2 guys I mentioned earlier who used to win every week before the pros started coming in? They don't play anymore. In fact, I've had to really fight with one of them because he seems to be on a mission to kill my tournament now! Anyway, the point to all this is:
As a director one must keep in mind that it is impossible to make everyone happy. When I switched to a weekly handicapped tournament, the MAJORITY of participants were happy about it. And guess what... Benny is in the money every week! What I am about to try this weekend is having 1 tournament per month NOT HANDICAPPED. Raise the entry fee and added money to attract some strong players, and see how many of the locals go ahead and play anyway.
As a player and lover of pool, I would be excited to play in this tournament once a month! Even if I went 2 and out, I would hang around and watch the big dogs fight. So much is available to be learned just from intently watching these guys!
What I've learned as a director is although I can't make everyone happy at the same time, I can make everyone (or almost everyone) happy at some point. AND, if they KNOW what I am trying to do and give it time to pan out, all the players (except for one), strong and weak, become more supportive and loyal.

I think the key to a successful tournament is the director must prove that he/she is fair and honest and DOES NOT PLAY in his/her own tournament. Once the players' trust is gained, the tournament will be a success as long as the director continues to follow the path of integrity.

See ya Sunday, Joey!

 

[JoeyA]

Everyone wants to win, cash, have a good time or at least be appreciated.

You always do a great job in being fair and honest as well as in promoting your events.

On handicapped events:
I have seen better players quit playing the event when the handicap puts them on a level playing field with others.

Another thing you should consider doing is if someone wins or places two times in a row, you could consider that they sit out for a couple of months or three.

JoeyA

As a tournament director, I have found the answer to this question is quite elusive, and players are very fickle in their opinions as well!
I run a weekly big table tournament which started as a non handicapped tournament. There were 2 local guys who seemed to win it nearly every week. Then, a few top notch players started showing up and I handicapped them by making them go to 7 instead of 5 with my alternate break format. All that accomplished was to drag my tournament out for a couple more hours when there were 2 or 3 of those guys in it. It didn't seem to matter to how many games I made Jamie go, he would win every time. Benny, on the other hand, couldn't seem to handle giving up the games and would crack to weaker players who would beat him to 5!
As my tournament numbers started to dwindle and I could hear the players grumbling a bit, I developed a handicap system to try and level the playing field for all. Now, remember those 2 guys I mentioned earlier who used to win every week before the pros started coming in? They don't play anymore. In fact, I've had to really fight with one of them because he seems to be on a mission to kill my tournament now! Anyway, the point to all this is:
As a director one must keep in mind that it is impossible to make everyone happy. When I switched to a weekly handicapped tournament, the MAJORITY of participants were happy about it. And guess what... Benny is in the money every week! What I am about to try this weekend is having 1 tournament per month NOT HANDICAPPED. Raise the entry fee and added money to attract some strong players, and see how many of the locals go ahead and play anyway.
As a player and lover of pool, I would be excited to play in this tournament once a month! Even if I went 2 and out, I would hang around and watch the big dogs fight. So much is available to be learned just from intently watching these guys!
What I've learned as a director is although I can't make everyone happy at the same time, I can make everyone (or almost everyone) happy at some point. AND, if they KNOW what I am trying to do and give it time to pan out, all the players (except for one), strong and weak, become more supportive and loyal.

I think the key to a successful tournament is the director must prove that he/she is fair and honest and DOES NOT PLAY in his/her own tournament. Once the players' trust is gained, the tournament will be a success as long as the director continues to follow the path of integrity.

See ya Sunday, Joey!