Viability of English and Low Squirt Shafts

[Cornerman]

I

View attachment 248792

pj
chgo

I think there's something a little off on the picture. But this might be trivial to your point.

The final direction of the force vector is the same for the respective aiming line for the zero, low and high squirt cues (that's the goal), but the scalar (magnitude) of the Force vector shouldn't be the same if you hit the same point unless you have varying stroke speed.


Freddie <~~~ vector needs a magnitude and a direction

 

[ENGLISH!]

Thanks Rick, i will stand by what i said, until further notice, it does not mean you or Pat wrong. There will be no squirt or swerve if your cue 100% parallel to table (no elevation), and parallel to the no squirt line. You will ask how can you have level cue, sure low english you will swerve, high english you can have level cue.

Mr. Naji,

Ahhh, that is what Mr. Long & I have 'discussed' & I tend to agree. But I would not 'speak' in absolutes.

Yes, high side, say between 10:30 & 1:30 maybe, will roll soooner & the diagonal roll will take the CB to that side. The ratio of squirt to swerve is different but it is still there & again depends on the speed of the shot. But I now 'see' what you meant with just a few more words, alot less than a thousand.

Best Regards,

 

[Patrick Johnson]

There will be no squirt or swerve if your cue 100% parallel to table (no elevation), and parallel to the no squirt line.

Sorry, naji, but that's mistaken.

Squirt is caused by the CB rotating and pushing the tip to the side, simultaneously pushing itself (the CB) in the opposite direction. You can't have CB rotation (sidespin) without this happening - it's physically impossible.

When you think you're keeping your cue parallel to the CB's path and getting no squirt, then either your eyes are deceiving you or swerve is "hiding" the squirt. This is often true of above center hits, where swerve takes effect sooner - it doesn't mean there is no squirt; it just means it isn't as obvious to the eye.

pj
chgo

 

[Patrick Johnson]

...the scalar (magnitude) of the Force vector shouldn't be the same if you hit the same point unless you have varying stroke speed.

Yes, thanks - I purposely ignored that detail for simplicity's sake, since it isn't pertinent to my point.

pj
chgo

 

[swest]

..................

 

[naji]

Sorry, naji, but that's mistaken.

Squirt is caused by the CB rotating and pushing the tip to the side, simultaneously pushing itself (the CB) in the opposite direction. You can't have CB rotation (sidespin) without this happening - it's physically impossible.

When you think you're keeping your cue parallel to the CB's path and getting no squirt, then either your eyes are deceiving you or swerve is "hiding" the squirt. This is often true of above center hits, where swerve takes effect sooner - it doesn't mean there is no squirt; it just means it isn't as obvious to the eye.

pj
chgo

Thanks Pat, you do make a lot of sense, however, i will give this few more days and will decide if i am wrong, i will be 1st to admit it.

 

[plfrg]

It has been tested. I've tested it many times. There's no difference between shafts.


If they're both properly chalked, both kinds of shafts "grab" the CB the same way. The shaft doesn't produce two separate forces on the CB - forward momentum and sideways deflection - that produce different effects. It produces one "combined force" that points in a single direction.

Think of the shaft's force on the CB as an arrow that points from the tip through the CB a little to the side of center. With CB deflection the shaft is angled slightly off that line - a little more angle with HD and a little less angle with LD - but the force is still the same line pointing in the same direction: toward the CB's target. Only the shaft's angle changes.

In other words, it's the same single "force vector" on the CB, in the same amount and pointing in the same direction - so there's no difference in the amount of spin produced on the CB.


pj
chgo

pj,
I like the image and think it explains the pivot point well. I guess in that instance it makes sense that the forces would be similar as that is essentially the definition of why the pivot point works.

Perhaps it's true for those that use BHE or FHE, that there is little to no difference assuming the pivot point is used. No one is perfect so there is likely some difference but may be too small to worry about.

However, it would not be physically possible for those that use parallel english. One option was pushing the ball aside and another was putting more energy into straight forward motion. The ball must spin on its axis more for the LD shaft. The forces on the CB have to be different if the "same" hit produces a different action.

 

[Patrick Johnson]

plfrg:
Perhaps it's true for those that use BHE or FHE, that there is little to no difference assuming the pivot point is used. ...

However, it would not be physically possible for those that use parallel english.

Everybody "uses the pivot point". There's no such thing as "parallel" english. That's a (way too common) misperception.

pj
chgo

 

[Masayoshi]

Everybody "uses the pivot point". There's no such thing as "parallel" english. That's a (way too common) misperception.

pj
chgo

I'm not sure why you think there isn't, but there certainly is parallel english and it is extremely useful. Probably more useful than any pivot method.

 

[Roger Long]

Everybody "uses the pivot point". There's no such thing as "parallel" english. That's a (way too common) misperception.

pj
chgo

Patrick, is that something you can prove?

Roger

 

[plfrg]

Everybody "uses the pivot point". There's no such thing as "parallel" english. That's a (way too common) misperception.

pj
chgo

that's simply not true or provable.

In fact when I was talking with Nick Varner on one of his tours I brought up BHE/FHE and he just looked at me with a funny look on his face like I was crazy. I'm not saying he used parallel english - I don't know, but it seemed like he either did use parallel english or at least thought he did. Perhaps I wasn't being clear enough to get my question answered...

You may be thinking that people may think they use parallel english but in reality they aren't exactly parallel. There are still people out there that use it, even if they aren't perfectly parallel.

 

[Patrick Johnson]

Everybody "uses the pivot point". There's no such thing as "parallel" english. That's a (way too common) misperception.

pj
chgo

plfrg:
that's simply not true or provable.

Do you believe you can apply sidespin without producing squirt (CB deflection)?

pj
chgo

 

[Masayoshi]

Do you believe you can apply sidespin without producing squirt (CB deflection)?

pj
chgo

Are you claiming "parallel english" is not possible because your definition of the "pivot point" is the point at which cue offset perfectly counteracts deflection? If not, disregard the following.

If so, I would claim your definition of "pivot point" is inaccurate. In order for it to be a "pivot point", you would actually have to willingly pivot from that point.

A "pivot point" is the point used to account for deflection with pivot based methods. The "pivot point" where cue offset and deflection cancel out is ideal for shots with no swerve or throw.

Thus methods that don't use a pivot, i.e. parallel english, don't have a pivot point. They do however have a point at which cue offset cancels deflection, but don't use it in favor of controlling curve and throw to cancel deflection instead.

 

[EagleMan]

that's simply not true or provable.

In fact when I was talking with Nick Varner on one of his tours I brought up BHE/FHE and he just looked at me with a funny look on his face like I was crazy. I'm not saying he used parallel english - I don't know, but it seemed like he either did use parallel english or at least thought he did. Perhaps I wasn't being clear enough to get my question answered...

You may be thinking that people may think they use parallel english but in reality they aren't exactly parallel. There are still people out there that use it, even if they aren't perfectly parallel.

My experience is similar to yours. I have asked a LOT of top pros about parallel english and pivot points and most of them....9 out of 10...didn't even know what those things are.

They MAY use such things...but not knowingly or intentionally...at least if they were telling me the truth which I expect they were.

Possibly, that is explained by what I consider the FACT that most of the great ones got great via the "million shot method."

I am certain that the vast majority of the great ones played and practiced RELENTLESSLY...compulsively and fanatically to such an extent that they have played hundreds and hundreds of times more shots than even really good amateurs have ever shot.

So, they decide on the english (if any) they need for position and just KNOW how to adjust their aim to produce the desired results.

(-:

 

[swest]

Look, the point of PJ's posts on this subject is simple:

1. Players use english (sidespin) and still make shots.
2. Applying english (sidespin) to the CB creates squirt.

therefore

3. Players have adjusted for squirt by changing their direction of aim slightly (i.e. pivoted, if you like).

Now, they may not call it pivoting, or BHE, or whatever, but they have done it, because otherwise they wouldn't make the shot.

 

[ENGLISH!]

Thus methods that don't use a pivot, i.e. parallel english, don't have a pivot point. They do however have a point at which cue offset cancels deflection, but don't use it in favor of controlling curve and throw to cancel deflection instead.

I would tend to agree, but...

'Well, that depends on what the definition of is, is.' (Bill Clinton)

To what are 'we' relating 'parallel'?

I have been using what I would call 'parallel' english for nearly 46 years.

1. You line up a shot, with your eyes, from the center of the cue ball to the center of the ghost ball location.

2. You decide what amount of tip offset you are going to use.

3. You mentally adjust the ghost ball position accordingly.

4. You come down on the shot with the cue stick 'parallel' to the visual centerline running from the center of the cue ball to the center of the adjusted ghost ball location.

5 You shoot the shot with the cue stick running 'parallell' to the 'visual' line of the cue ball center to the center of the adjusted ghost ball. Hence it is 'parallel' to the visual center line.

Does the cue ball travel in a 'parallel' straight line, parallel to anything? No.

Is it a 'parallel' sight or aiming line system for aplling english? I'd say so.

Is it different from BHE, FHE, & a combination of the 'normal' BH/FH English, where they go in opposite directions? I'd say so.

So, it depends on what the definition of is 'parallel', is.

I also will get down on a shot first and then shift the whole cue, front & back including my bridge hand, to the side for a newly desired tip offset, 'parallel' to the sight line, or I will use BHE, FHE, or a combination of both.

Do these things require the correct foward speed to spin ratio? Yes. Are they a bit 'complicated'? A bit. Are they TOO complcated to be useful? I certainly do not think so.

Best Regards,

 

[Patrick Johnson]

Look, the point of PJ's posts on this subject is simple:

1. Players use english (sidespin) and still make shots.
2. Applying english (sidespin) to the CB creates squirt.

therefore

3. Players have adjusted for squirt by changing their direction of aim slightly (i.e. pivoted, if you like).

Now, they may not call it pivoting, or BHE, or whatever, but they have done it, because otherwise they wouldn't make the shot.

Yes, that's one of my points: the cue must be "pivoted" unless the amount of swerve exactly matches the amount of squirt - call that the "effective pivot point" because it changes with the amount of swerve for each shot. Another point is that each cue also has a "natural pivot point" (the point at which you'd pivot if swerve didn't exist) which is a fixed characteristic of each shaft like tip width or taper, and exists at the same point on the shaft whether or not the cue is ever actually pivoted there, defining the squirt side of the squirt/swerve equation for each shot.

If there's enough flexibility in CB position, then it's theoretically possible to choose tip offset, butt elevation and speed to exactly match swerve with squirt to aim directly at the target with "parallel english". But I don't believe there's enough CB position flexibility to do this exactly on most shots, and I don't believe we're capable of seeing whether or not we've achieved it exactly for any shot. So I think players who try to make a practice of it are fooling themselves to some degree about how successful they really are - this is what I mean when I say parallel english doesn't really exist and everybody pivots.

The important question to me is which is better: aiming "parallel" with less choice of CB position or aiming pivoted with more choice of CB position?

It seems to me that both require the same degree of familiarity with the effects of tip offset, butt elevation and speed, and I'm comfortable with aiming pivoted, so I choose pivoting and more choice of CB position.

pj
chgo

 

[naji]

Do you believe you can apply sidespin without producing squirt (CB deflection)?

pj
chgo

Hello PJ,
It is possible with small tip hitting CB at the inner offset, in another words, say CB Dia is 2" for argument sake, half of that is 1",half of 1" is 0.5", if your tip touches say 0.3" squirt will be minimum if not 0, it is hard to do with 13 mm tip, or at least from feel point of view.

Another factor, if you hold cue butt at end then it will be hard to judge if you parallel or not, if you bring hand say to balance point or 3 or 4" from balance point in joint direction you reduce pivoting (is this BHE and FHE), and will be almost 100% parallel.


I want to ask the question here, say i have glass or extremely smooth cloth surface, will there be a squirt? If not is squirt due to cue or friction

 

[naji]

Everybody "uses the pivot point". There's no such thing as "parallel" english. That's a (way too common) misperception.

pj
chgo

Hi PJ,
I use parallel english without noticing i do, i aim exactly the same as regular center ball hit, with 12, 13 mm cues i adjust my aim for squirt, and elevation and swerve. With my 11 mm shaft i do not adjust for squirt, at times i check my alignment for very long shots, for sure i adjust for elevation and swerve.
All done before i go down.

 

[ENGLISH!]

Hi PJ,
I use parallel english without noticing i do, i aim exactly the same as regular center ball hit, with 12, 13 mm cues i adjust my aim for squirt, and elevation and swerve. With my 11 mm shaft i do not adjust for squirt, at times i check my alignment for very long shots, for sure i adjust for elevation and swerve.
All done before i go down.

Mr. Naji,

What taper shafts do you play with & is the 11mm one a different taper than the others?

Also, are you playing with regular shafts or Low Deflection(squirt) shafts?

I'm just wondering if these differentials may be contributing to your perceptions.

Best Regards,