Why is the APA so frowned upon?
- Thread starter Magyar19
- Start date
Come on over to Hickory and ask some APA players to gamble. You can start low with Daniel Gambil. He only placed in the top 10 this year and last year at the US Amateur and then you can work your way up to the other lowly APA players around Hickory.
There's ranks for amateurs, where can I find the rankings?
That is really a NC thing. The pool halls fight for the alcohol money the APA players bring in that they give away the table time.
Here in MN, we pay $30/night for green fees per team. Each team also has their own table and we split matches from the get go. We're done around 9:30-10pm and have the table for the rest of the night. We also get the table around 5-5:30pm to practice on. Of the 6 teams that play out of the pool hall we're at, really only 2 of them (ours and one other) buy more than like 3 or 4 drinks total for the night. Our waitress is PISSED that we're now traveling and not in-house because whenever our team or the other one that drinks is away she loses cash because it's normally replaced with teams that are drinking soda all night.
When I played in NYC every place was also done on coin-op tables with a cost between $1 and $2/game. Wasn't uncommon to have to pay $30 or more a night in coin drops for the games + practice before hand.
Brian
Too bad Eddie Little has quit pool for poker, he's an APA person I'd put money on! Also, I'd love to see some of these people try to think they have an easy money game against Mark Currie or Loco because they play APA in Charlotte
Muhahahahahhaha!
Just for clarification, I kept score for 4 of the 5 matches our team played tonite.
I think there was a total of 3 "slop" shots out of those 4 matches. (Not counting the break, that's a whole other argument.) That's out of a total of about 20 games played. And about 100 innings, give or take a few. None of them directly led to a victory.
A real epidemic. "Everybody" is "always" slamming the balls around.... damned uncouth league players.
Sheesh.
I think there was a total of 3 "slop" shots out of those 4 matches. (Not counting the break, that's a whole other argument.) That's out of a total of about 20 games played. And about 100 innings, give or take a few. None of them directly led to a victory.
A real epidemic. "Everybody" is "always" slamming the balls around.... damned uncouth league players.
Sheesh.
SET RANT ON
APA - Sandbaggers League...
If it is not self-evident, when a SL-5 in APA rated as a SL-3 due to the sand-bagging shenanigans they let go on; plays a true SL-3 or SL-2 (newbie) that individual gets very discouraged and increases the attrition rate...
Here in Vegas I recently watched a skill level "1" ONE female run out two non-trivial racks, missed two shots, on the third playing two-way shots that left un-make-able safes...
At the APA nationals last year here in Vegas I watched a so-called skill level 3 male break and run-out 3 consecutive racks in the minis and not get an eyebrow raise from the refs even after it was reported...
maybe one of these days the APA league operators will get serious about personally verifying skill-levels periodically throughout the seasons...
APA National should require a documented periodic review by all league operators as well IMHO...
I also think that no stinking Mud Balls, AKA: Bowling Balls etc., should be allowed in ANY league play; just about everybody has a red-dot in their bag; WTF APA allows home team picks the ball and table (APA By-Laws) is beyond me...
The lower players have enough trouble with their game without adding the fricking mud-ball to the mix... (All players could benefit from NO MUD BALLS in League Play)
I play APA, TAP and BCA here in Vegas and I have a lot of fun in all, but APA really chaps my hide when it comes to the blatant sandbagging they let go on...
SET RANT OFF
APA - Sandbaggers League...
If it is not self-evident, when a SL-5 in APA rated as a SL-3 due to the sand-bagging shenanigans they let go on; plays a true SL-3 or SL-2 (newbie) that individual gets very discouraged and increases the attrition rate...
Here in Vegas I recently watched a skill level "1" ONE female run out two non-trivial racks, missed two shots, on the third playing two-way shots that left un-make-able safes...
At the APA nationals last year here in Vegas I watched a so-called skill level 3 male break and run-out 3 consecutive racks in the minis and not get an eyebrow raise from the refs even after it was reported...
maybe one of these days the APA league operators will get serious about personally verifying skill-levels periodically throughout the seasons...
APA National should require a documented periodic review by all league operators as well IMHO...
I also think that no stinking Mud Balls, AKA: Bowling Balls etc., should be allowed in ANY league play; just about everybody has a red-dot in their bag; WTF APA allows home team picks the ball and table (APA By-Laws) is beyond me...
The lower players have enough trouble with their game without adding the fricking mud-ball to the mix... (All players could benefit from NO MUD BALLS in League Play)
I play APA, TAP and BCA here in Vegas and I have a lot of fun in all, but APA really chaps my hide when it comes to the blatant sandbagging they let go on...
SET RANT OFF
Not to get off the subject, but.......
How do you have a join date of Sept. 2008 if this is your first post???
Curious minds want to know.
Maniac
He types really slow! He actually started composing this message after he got back from the 2008 APA Nationals!
making moves
New member
Opinion on whether this APA League Operator is a crook...
Would like an opinion on this situation because I am close to pulling the trigger on starting a rival league.
League has 38 8-ball teams & 28 9-ball teams currently.
Calculated that league dues bring in over $92,000.
First off the league dues were raised last year $1 per player so that league could have (1) annual Top Shooter tournament paying back around $1000.
Leagues sent a grand total of (2) teams to Las Vegas last year and gave the teams $599 per player total. $7,787 because one of the teams had only 5 eligible members.
No prize fund was in place and only plaques were given out. Could not have cost more than $2000.
Here is where we are at :
$92,000 (income)
- 7,787 (teams to Vegas)
______
$84,213
- 1,000 (Top Shooter tournament)
_______
$74,213
- 2,000 (plaques)
_______
$72,213 (total gross income)
From what I have read the APA charges 20% licensing royalty fee.....
$72,213
- $14442.60
__________
$57,770
So what I gather the players basically get a fun night of pool (which they can get in ANY league). The dude enters data from scoresheets on Wednesday each week and makes close to $60,000/year.
Please tell me that this area is not in need of a competing league that will, at the very least, force this person to do more for the players or watch his league disintegrate before his eyes. Reading some of the posts on here it looks like some of the league operators have morals and give the players something in return for their hard-earned money other than a 'fun night out'.
Would like an opinion on this situation because I am close to pulling the trigger on starting a rival league.
League has 38 8-ball teams & 28 9-ball teams currently.
Calculated that league dues bring in over $92,000.
First off the league dues were raised last year $1 per player so that league could have (1) annual Top Shooter tournament paying back around $1000.
Leagues sent a grand total of (2) teams to Las Vegas last year and gave the teams $599 per player total. $7,787 because one of the teams had only 5 eligible members.
No prize fund was in place and only plaques were given out. Could not have cost more than $2000.
Here is where we are at :
$92,000 (income)
- 7,787 (teams to Vegas)
______
$84,213
- 1,000 (Top Shooter tournament)
_______
$74,213
- 2,000 (plaques)
_______
$72,213 (total gross income)
From what I have read the APA charges 20% licensing royalty fee.....
$72,213
- $14442.60
__________
$57,770
So what I gather the players basically get a fun night of pool (which they can get in ANY league). The dude enters data from scoresheets on Wednesday each week and makes close to $60,000/year.
Please tell me that this area is not in need of a competing league that will, at the very least, force this person to do more for the players or watch his league disintegrate before his eyes. Reading some of the posts on here it looks like some of the league operators have morals and give the players something in return for their hard-earned money other than a 'fun night out'.
you take your 1st post on this forum to dredge up a 2 year old thread to insinuate that an apa lo is a crook ?
i am no lo but i will debate this subject with you after you answer me one question.
can you name me one league that lets you play for free ?
For real.
Anyway...
APA is a franchise. Small business no different than any other, much like a Snapon or Matco franchise.
People run an APA league the same reason you go to work, to make a living. Most do reasonably well but some not so much.
Anyway...
APA is a franchise. Small business no different than any other, much like a Snapon or Matco franchise.
People run an APA league the same reason you go to work, to make a living. Most do reasonably well but some not so much.
My issue with the APA has never been about the money, except for the fact that the whole business model is based upon a pyramid
scheme! It's designed to force teams who improve into splitting up and forming 2 new teams periodically! The "23" rule is what they use to
implement the scheme and personally I think it's leading to the decline of pool! They've changed it from a game of "billiards skills" to a
game of "handicap manipulation" it penalizes you for improving! All in the name of greed by the league OWNERS! I don't begrudge the
local LO's for making a decent living, those that do are not as common as you might think and believe me they've earned every penny of it!
The BIG problem is how the 23 rule forces teams to split when they can no longer field a legal team under 23 in handicap! I understand
their concept, I was around in their infancy (1981) as a bar owner listening to their representative explain the system very clearly! This
was at a time when the "Money Pyramid Clubs" were all over the news after people found that they weren't MAGIC MONEY
CREATORS, like the APA. and that every dime of profit received from them came as the loss of someone you might have
convinced to invest! I remember thinking at the time "How is this any different than what the APA is doing?" I couldn't see a difference,
except the APA probably paid taxes. At least they withheld taxes! lol Until they revamp the "23 Rule" and come up with a handicap system
that doesn't penalize you for improving or forces friends to have to split their teams up just so a few guys in St Louis can get richer, I'll
continue to BOYCOTT THE APA ! I hear that the NAPA league is much better than the APA though I haven't tried myself!
Sherm
scheme! It's designed to force teams who improve into splitting up and forming 2 new teams periodically! The "23" rule is what they use to
implement the scheme and personally I think it's leading to the decline of pool! They've changed it from a game of "billiards skills" to a
game of "handicap manipulation" it penalizes you for improving! All in the name of greed by the league OWNERS! I don't begrudge the
local LO's for making a decent living, those that do are not as common as you might think and believe me they've earned every penny of it!
The BIG problem is how the 23 rule forces teams to split when they can no longer field a legal team under 23 in handicap! I understand
their concept, I was around in their infancy (1981) as a bar owner listening to their representative explain the system very clearly! This
was at a time when the "Money Pyramid Clubs" were all over the news after people found that they weren't MAGIC MONEY
CREATORS, like the APA.
and that every dime of profit received from them came as the loss of someone you might have convinced to invest! I remember thinking at the time "How is this any different than what the APA is doing?" I couldn't see a difference,
except the APA probably paid taxes. At least they withheld taxes! lol Until they revamp the "23 Rule" and come up with a handicap system
that doesn't penalize you for improving or forces friends to have to split their teams up just so a few guys in St Louis can get richer, I'll
continue to BOYCOTT THE APA ! I hear that the NAPA league is much better than the APA though I haven't tried myself!
Sherm
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So you would like him to run a league for you (and a total of 66 teams) for free...? Your reply would probably be something like, "well, maybe not free....". And I would reply back by asking you then what should he be paid? And who are you even to decide that?
I'm definitely not a fan of APA, but of all the problems l could name, a League Operators compensation for his investment into an APA franchise would not be among them.. Apparently he must be doing a somewhat decent job, because that is a VERY healthy number of teams he has...
The local APA operator in my local area has 6 teams. 6! No one has a good word to say about the guy, and his team participation makes that apparent...
Personally, I really don't think 60k (which you are missing quite a bit of factors in your numbers, but even so...) is all that much. Running that many teams is more than a full time job, believe me.. Anyone who know a league operator will attest to that...
I do however suggest you start your own league up. If you can do a better then by all means go ahead, and wish you the best of luck. Healthy competition can only make things better for your local players and pool scene.. Good luck..
Great Post. IMHO..People like to say that APA is great for bringing new players to the table................They do, but at what cost?
If the majority of new players enter through this league, which has the highest turnover in the industry, and then leave feeling like they've been burned by not having their skills levels assessed accurately and thus are not competitive?..then how can this be a "great" league?? It is not. It is not great for pool players or anyone else that watches or plays a slop match. It is only great financially for their League Operators who have the highest profit margin in the industry. Their culture also allows their L.O.s to look the other way when bad sportsmanship or etiquette is exhibited, as this is now the status quo in APA and has been for decades.
No league is perfect, but we chose to work with TAP as it is the industry leader with their POOL-net handicapping system. TAP will soon enter its 25th year in business and has been the fastest growing league for the last 7 years straight. Loyd Schonter, who is the owner, stresses good sportsmanship and etiquette year after year, and has developed the most accurate handicapping system that now employs the Scorekeeper 2.0 app which helps scorekeepers provide state of the art handicapping.
Anyone who has played pool for any time knows the pitfalls of slop. It is bad for your game and this is why you don't see good players participating..and if they do? its not for very long.
In 2014 there will be a clear choice, as TAP has now developed the most precise and simplified handicapping ever known, and has an owner that consistently strives to improve his product and gives back to pool players.
TAP is the future of league pool. Give it a shot!
http://vimeo.com/78388124
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Great Post. IMHO..People like to say that APA is great for bringing new players to the table................They do, but at what cost?
If the majority of new players enter through this league, which has the highest turnover in the industry, and then leave feeling like they've been burned by not having their skills levels assessed accurately and thus are not competitive?..then how can this be a "great" league?? It is not. It is not great for pool players or anyone else that watches or plays a slop match. It is only great financially for their League Operators who have the highest profit margin in the industry. Their culture also allows their L.O.s to look the other way when bad sportsmanship or etiquette is exhibited, as this is now the status quo in APA and has been for decades.
No league is perfect, but we chose to work with TAP as it is the industry leader with their POOL-net handicapping system. TAP will soon enter its 25th year in business and has been the fastest growing league for the last 7 years straight. Loyd Schonter, who is the owner, stresses good sportsmanship and etiquette year after year, and has developed the most accurate handicapping system that now employs our Scorekeeper 2.0 app which helps scorekeepers provide state of the art handicapping.
Anyone who has played pool for any time knows the pitfalls of slop. It is bad for your game and this is why you don't see good players participating..and if they do? its not for very long.
In 2014 there will be a clear choice, as TAP has now developed the most precise and simplified handicapping ever known, and has an owner that consistently strives to improve his product and gives back to pool players.
TAP is the future of league pool. Give it a shot!
http://vimeo.com/78388124
Bold is crap. When the APA 9-ball team champs were caught cheating,they rightfully suspended those players for several yearss. Mark Griffin suspended players from that team that played in his leagues. Several of those players play in TAP. tAP's actions? Take no action.
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Banks
Banned
Great Post. IMHO..People like to say that APA is great for bringing new players to the table................They do, but at what cost?
Lol. How many players has TAP brought in?