Why Object Ball Last?

[scottjen26]

I just noticed another interesting idea that is somewhat controversial. To keep it unbiased try this exercise first.

Slowly touch your nose with your index finger.

Wait for it









What did you find? I found that my brain prefers to use an arc when moving the hand. Next time I tried moving my index finger in a straight line to my nose. I noticed that my hand wavered along the line. I accomplished the task with accuracy but there was a noticeable difference between the two ways of touching my nose. The arc is (to me) much smoother and the preferred method. I can be equally accurate with either method but the arc simply feels better or more natural.

Perhaps the brain prefers this type of integral calculus for making the necessary adjustment during targeting. It can be forced to work a pump action but a pendulum or arc type swinging motion is "preferred" by my brain.

Well I guess you can see the controversy there. Apparently the pendulum swing is preferred by the brain. Oh my, what are all those snooker players going to say

Then too I have an old brain so maybe the pump is better for some

And finally, touching your nose has nothing to do with pool playing, yeah, right.

Interesting insight, I would apply it in another way. Since we aren't looking at our arm motion while shooting, it's not as relevant to me. But while aiming, quite a few players come into the cue ball from one side or the other and not in a direct motion. Perhaps that's also how the pivot based aiming systems help us segment the shots into categories related to the relationship of the balls and the geometry of the shot/table and then sweep in from left to right or right to left, allowing our brain to zero in on the precise angle in a way that's feels so locked in...

Not saying you need to use an aiming system to gain a benefit from this, many of the pros have this movement while shooting. I just think that along with the initial systematic alignment, which changes based on the relative sizes of the balls and the relationship to the pocket, we get to within a few degrees of the shot and maybe our visual process is able to zero in even further and automatically makes minute adjustments on the way in from there.

Scott

 

[Scott Lee]

Sorry you felt it was an insult...imo it wasn't (the really funny thing is I was actually trying to compliment Rick...but you know...). You're "old school" in the way you teach (that means you've been doing the same thing, the same way for the last 30 yrs, so why change), and about 200 of us are "new school" (that means we utilize new methods of learning and conveying information, and are constantly evolving in our teaching techniques). Nothing wrong with being either way. The students make their own choices.

Scott Lee
http://poolknowledge.com

Thank you Rick. You understand where I'm coming from and I appreciate that. As for Scott, I've sort of conditioned myself to disregard his insults. People have told me he can't help it, so I'm inclined to agree. Some battles are not worth fighting.

 

[Okie]

Funny.

I went over to my Gold Crown IV tonight and shot some and broke a few racks. I decided to focus on looking at the OB last. Go through my routine, pull the cue back, pause, and then shift from the CB to the OB as i fire.

Didnt really do too bad, considering i havent played/practiced that much the last ten months or so. Ran one rack, messed up one or two others.

However, dont anybody say i told you so. No way am i changing my mind on this.

Mike

I think we all agree to each his/her own. Well most of us anyways.

Glad you were motivated to go hit a few!

Ken

 

[Neil]

Let me take a stab at that from the psych perspective.

The brain guides the hand based on what the eye sees and the proprioceptive feedback from the preliminary swings. In the study of just noticeable differences (JND in the literature) it has been found that the brain can (and will) compensate for very small changes in perception. Note the perception is visual and proprioceptive (perception based on muscle activity that helps to locate an object in space among other things)

With sufficient dwell time the brain makes a more accurate assessment of the situation and may or may not need to make minute adjustments even as the stroke is in its final stages.

This is one of the reasons that one should not look up from a shot until after contact has been made.

Having one's shoulder in the correct position serves as an abutment from which the calculations are made. Something like a gun emplacement for large guns: A solid foundation is required for execution but in the case of humans we are continually calculating the different vectors and adjusting as needed. A quiet eye on the target is another (though different) type of abutment.

If the abutments are not stable or sufficient then the result will be inconsistent.

BTW people who can make a shot after looking up are only demonstrating very sound fundamentals that allow them to keep everything perfectly still for that shot. I have never seen, and doubt very much, that anyone could play a whole game looking up before every shot.

I guess it depends on what game one is playing, but a few years ago I ran three racks on a barbox looking away on each shot once I was "set". That guy then became a believer in strong fundamentals, he wasn't before that.

 

[Shaky1]

I play just as well,or just as bad, by not even looking at all after I get set.
Eyes closed makes not a bit of difference. I can run racks either way. I can miss everything either way.
Set up and cuing straight seems to be everything?
Weather my eyes are on the cue ball or object ball does not matter as long as I'm steady? :embarrassed2:

 

[FranCrimi]

Sorry you felt it was an insult...imo it wasn't (the really funny thing is I was actually trying to compliment Rick...but you know...). You're "old school" in the way you teach (that means you've been doing the same thing, the same way for the last 30 yrs, so why change), and about 200 of us are "new school" (that means we utilize new methods of learning and conveying information, and are constantly evolving in our teaching techniques). Nothing wrong with being either way. The students make their own choices.

Scott Lee
http://poolknowledge.com

Shame on you for that, Scott. You are a very little man, in more ways than one.

 

[Okie]

I play just as well,or just as bad, by not even looking at all after I get set.
Eyes closed makes not a bit of difference. I can run racks either way. I can miss everything either way.
Set up and cuing straight seems to be everything?
Weather my eyes are on the cue ball or object ball does not matter as long as I'm steady? :embarrassed2:

I was thinking about that on my way to work today. While watching the snooker run out slasher posted in the other thread, I noticed the player never seemed to adjust once his hand hit the table. He eye balled whatever but didn't seem to move at all once down.

So...

What does this all mean? lol

We know we want to drop in and be perfect. We also know this can only be done with hours of effort. Am I putting the cart before the horse by thinking about eye patterns before perfecting my setup?

Oh the joys of "the struggle"!

Ken

 

[Neil]

Shame on you for that, Scott. You are a very little man, in more ways than one.

You insult someone for making it clear that it was NOT an insult, and for saying there is nothing wrong with the way you teach??????????????

 

[Shaky1]

I was thinking about that on my way to work today. While watching the snooker run out slasher posted in the other thread, I noticed the player never seemed to adjust once his hand hit the table. He eye balled whatever but didn't seem to move at all once down.

So...

What does this all mean? lol

We know we want to drop in and be perfect. We also know this can only be done with hours of effort. Am I putting the cart before the horse by thinking about eye patterns before perfecting my setup?

Oh the joys of "the struggle"!

Ken

I don't have all the answers for sure! I move around a bit when I'm getting set. That (set) is the point of either making the shot or missing it.
If my head isn't in the correct place, or my stick isn't pointed where I think it is, I'm probably going to miss the shot.
It has already been detemrmined at that point if I make a good stroke.
If you are aligned right and stroke straight , the ball has to go in. It can't do anything else.

 

[JoeW]

You insult someone for making it clear that it was NOT an insult, and for saying there is nothing wrong with the way you teach??????????????

What are you doing here Neil? If someone told you that you had been doing the same thing for 30 years with your teaching I would guess that you too would be insulted. Each contributes in their own way. Some are more abrasive than others. But let's not make it out to be something that it is not. Scott's comments are extremely insulting.

We have had far too many people leave the forum because of these types of comments and piling on. I wonder about Scott's intent and about your intent when you support this rude behavior. In my opinion Scott should get a few weeks banned from AZ for his comments to one of the most respected player / teachers.

There is no two ways about it, Fran is one of the most credible people here. Her efforts to improve the quality of instruction are among the most significant things that have been done. And I am sure that you know it.

Here is one link that lauds her efforts with the BCA President's award.
http://www.insidepoolmag.com/200812/billiard-news/fran-crimi-honored-with-billiard-congress-of-america-2008-president%E2%80%99s-award.html

Here is a link to her public appearance with Steve Mizerak and Mike Sigal

http://www.charlierose.com/view/interview/3758

We could all take a few lessons from Fran and learn something new.

A few of her accomplishments. from Play Better Billiards.

Location (city, and state): New York City, NY

Accomplishments:
•First PBIA Female Master Instructor
•Former North American Representative in the World-Pool Billiard Association
•Former WPBA President
•Former WPBA Touring Pro
•Technical Advisor for Television and Film
•Working with players on their games for over 20 years.

Most notable student or students: Al Pacino, Uma Thurman, Oliver Platt, Patrick Dempsey, Ron Silver, Epatha Merkerson, and several other stars of film and television. Plus Hundreds of pool players from beginning through advanced levels.

 

[gregcantrall]

I was thinking about that on my way to work today. While watching the snooker run out slasher posted in the other thread, I noticed the player never seemed to adjust once his hand hit the table. He eye balled whatever but didn't seem to move at all once down.

So...

What does this all mean? lol

We know we want to drop in and be perfect. We also know this can only be done with hours of effort. Am I putting the cart before the horse by thinking about eye patterns before perfecting my setup?

Oh the joys of "the struggle"!

Ken

That is where lessons with the right instructor are invaluable. Books and videos are good but a good instructor can knock so much off of the learning curve.
When I first became interested in pool, I read everything I could get my hands on. My game was still lacking.
I got lucky when I asked a Road Player for lessons. I figured since he made his living playing pool on the road, he could read a persons game in just a few shots.(especially what little game I had at the time)
I knew I had gotten lucky when he said "Ok, on the condition that we start all over from the basics." Six one hour lesson at one a week was what I got and they were invaluable. All the book reading and pro watching/studying for 6 years could not equal 6 hours of lessons. The book reading and pro watching were definitly helpful but the lessons were what tied it all together.

Anyway back to the basics. Notice how Willie Hoppe devotes so much time to the basics and in what order. That is important. You want to build a house, the foundation is most important. All the pretty stuff ain't worth spit if it falls apart in a storm.

 

[Okie]

That is where lessons with the right instructor are invaluable. Books and videos are good but a good instructor can knock so much off of the learning curve.
When I first became interested in pool, I read everything I could get my hands on. My game was still lacking.
I got lucky when I asked a Road Player for lessons. I figured since he made his living playing pool on the road, he could read a persons game in just a few shots.(especially what little game I had at the time)
I knew I had gotten lucky when he said "Ok, on the condition that we start all over from the basics." Six one hour lesson at one a week was what I got and they were invaluable. All the book reading and pro watching/studying for 6 years could not equal 6 hours of lessons. The book reading and pro watching were definitly helpful but the lessons were what tied it all together.

Anyway back to the basics. Notice how Willie Hoppe devotes so much time to the basics and in what order. That is important. You want to build a house, the foundation is most important. All the pretty stuff ain't worth spit if it falls apart in a storm.

Agreed!

Thanks!

Ken

 

[FranCrimi]

Thank you Joe. I'm truly touched.

 

[Scott Lee]

Joe...We're all entitled to our opinions. Nothing that I said was insulting or rude. It's like Sargent Friday in Dragnet said..."just the facts, ma'am"! There are many people out there who consider the label "old school" to be quite positive. I never said anything different, or dirogatory. It is no secret that Fran's method of teaching varies greatly from mine, Randy's, or any of the SPF group of instructors (that's the 200 I mentioned). Fran herself would not disagree with that. That also not to say that the SPF method is any better or worse than any other method. That is for the student to determine for themselves. From the information that I read here, and feedback from thousands of students, it would appear that it (SPF training) works for many players. Even you posted a positive experience. I posted an apology. That you and Fran see it differently is not my problem.:grin:

Scott Lee
http://poolknowledge.com

Scott's comments are extremely insulting.

We have had far too many people leave the forum because of these types of comments and piling on. I wonder about Scott's intent and about your intent when you support this rude behavior. In my opinion Scott should get a few weeks banned from AZ for his comments to one of the most respected player / teachers.

There is no two ways about it, Fran is one of the most credible people here. Her efforts to improve the quality of instruction are among the most significant things that have been done. And I am sure that you know it.

 

[JoeW]

Joe...We're all entitled to our opinions. Nothing that I said was insulting or rude. It's like Sargent Friday in Dragnet said..."just the facts, ma'am"! There are many people out there who consider the label "old school" to be quite positive. I never said anything different, or dirogatory. It is no secret that Fran's method of teaching varies greatly from mine, Randy's, or any of the SPF group of instructors (that's the 200 I mentioned). Fran herself would not disagree with that. That also not to say that the SPF method is any better or worse than any other method. That is for the student to determine for themselves. From the information that I read here, and feedback from thousands of students, it would appear that it (SPF training) works for many players. Even you posted a positive experience. I posted an apology. That you and Fran see it differently is not my problem.:grin:

Scott Lee
http://poolknowledge.com

At the time I won a lottery and had a choice of taking lessons with Fran or with Randy. I avoid New York City like the plague. I have been there many times for meetings and I do not like the City. For this reason I regretfully selected to attend Randy's school. At the time I did not know who he was. I was pleased with what I learned from Randy and later learned more about him as a person. Randy and Fran are amazing people and as I remember it I was nervous just playing on the same tables with Fran. I knew who she was back then and I had only been playing a few years at the time.

Since you bring it up, SPF is a reasonably good teaching system. It has its flaws. It is certainly not the only way to teach and I think that serious players are well advised to study the game from different perspectives. Fran, Bob Jewett Jerry Braiseth, Lil Joe Villapando and Tom Simpson are some of the people I would most like to study with given the opportunity.

There are many choices and only a few are among the top teachers.

BTW, Based on your statements, you are probably not aware of the idea that good teachers pride themselves on their ability to keep up to date with the literature and teaching techniques. So I guess it is understandable that someone with your experience does not understand what it means to be a real teacher who puts a great deal of effort into their chosen way of life. Innuendo is a two way sword.

Now you can have the last word. From the thousands of people I have personally taught over the years I long ago learned when there are stupid people in the room, let them have the last word. The truth speaks for itself.

 

[Scott Lee]

Well Joe...here's where we have to call a spade a spade. You did not "regretfully select" to attend Randy's school. In fact, you WON a prize of a FREE slot in pool school, that Randy had given away, as a door prize, in the CCB tournament, held at BB's poolroom, during the U.S. Open a few years ago. Both Randy and I were present, so you can't deny this. As a 'noted' psychologist, you certainly are aware that when somebody gets something for nothing, that their 'appreciation' and 'knowledge intake' are often way different than someone who has paid significant money for the same experience. There...now you can have the last word! :smilewinkgrin:

Scott Lee
http://poolknowledge.com

At the time I won a lottery and had a choice of taking lessons with Fran or with Randy. I avoid New York City like the plague. I have been there many times for meetings and I do not like the City. For this reason I regretfully selected to attend Randy's school.

 

[Neil]

What are you doing here Neil? If someone told you that you had been doing the same thing for 30 years with your teaching I would guess that you too would be insulted. Each contributes in their own way. Some are more abrasive than others. But let's not make it out to be something that it is not. Scott's comments are extremely insulting.

We have had far too many people leave the forum because of these types of comments and piling on. I wonder about Scott's intent and about your intent when you support this rude behavior. In my opinion Scott should get a few weeks banned from AZ for his comments to one of the most respected player / teachers.

There is no two ways about it, Fran is one of the most credible people here. Her efforts to improve the quality of instruction are among the most significant things that have been done. And I am sure that you know it.

Here is one link that lauds her efforts with the BCA President's award.
http://www.insidepoolmag.com/200812/billiard-news/fran-crimi-honored-with-billiard-congress-of-america-2008-president%E2%80%99s-award.html

Here is a link to her public appearance with Steve Mizerak and Mike Sigal

http://www.charlierose.com/view/interview/3758

We could all take a few lessons from Fran and learn something new.

A few of her accomplishments. from Play Better Billiards.

Location (city, and state): New York City, NY

Accomplishments:
•First PBIA Female Master Instructor
•Former North American Representative in the World-Pool Billiard Association
•Former WPBA President
•Former WPBA Touring Pro
•Technical Advisor for Television and Film
•Working with players on their games for over 20 years.

Most notable student or students: Al Pacino, Uma Thurman, Oliver Platt, Patrick Dempsey, Ron Silver, Epatha Merkerson, and several other stars of film and television. Plus Hundreds of pool players from beginning through advanced levels.

What am I doing? I asked a simple question. One that apparently went over your esteemed head. One that you can't see past your prejudice of me , Scott, and Randy to be able to even read. Shame, too, with all your learning, you don't seem to have learned anything about people. Of all people on here, YOU should not be assuming things, but look at things objectively. Instead, you assume something that was never intended, refuse to back down from it when confronted with the truth and apologize to Scott like a man, and continue to insult him for no reason other than your personal pleasure. People with your attitude make this forum a joke.

 

[scottjen26]

For a minute I thought I was in the aiming forum by mistake...

 

[justadub]

This sub forum used to be a refuge from the sniping and animosity that pervades the rest of AZB.

"Used to be"...sigh.

 

[Neil]

This sub forum used to be a refuge from the sniping and animosity that pervades the rest of AZB.

"Used to be"...sigh.

You're right, it used to be. Seems like now, too many don't care about actual info, they care more about being part of a little clique. And, because of that, they are no longer free to actually read what is written without throwing their biases into it and then calling for bans against those they are biased against. Too bad. This used to be a great place for info. Now, no matter what is posted, someone in a clique has to see fit to twist it around and make the person look bad. They can't just read was is written, but feel they have to "take sides" right away, so any message is lost if from "the other side". Makes it not even worth posting anything anymore.