Would this be considered sandbagging?

[Celophanewrap]

In this example the players had been playing at the same skill level for several years but had won somewhere around 8 out of the last 10 during the spring session.

I will add that our team made it to the finals of LTC and lost. During the tournament nobody was moved up or down.

I have found that during the LTC or NTC the rankings and the software are always a little more sensitive than normal.
If you guys got to the final and no one moved up (or down) then you probably weren't as close to movement as you might have thought. Though the APA makes us all paranoid. I've always hated that

 

[CoachDitka2001]

Win percentage combined with average innings give you your innings per game in matches you win.
Your rank is based on your best 10 out of your last 20. Tourney matches count as 2. It is certainly possible to have a very high winning percentage and keep your rank, but you will be within one match with low innings of moving up, or possibly as a result of a good league owner.

Holding people out that you know are likely to move up may be considered poor sportsmanship, as the goal should always be to win as dominantly as possible. Its mot against the technical rules, but a good owner will be keeping an eye out for this and address it. You get the chance to address it yourself by certifying skill levels before the LTC. This is assuming they players are playing at a level above their rank, which you seem to imply. If not, then no worries.

 

[CoachDitka2001]

I have found that during the LTC or NTC the rankings and the software are always a little more sensitive than normal.
If you guys got to the final and no one moved up (or down) then you probably weren't as close to movement as you might have thought. Though the APA makes us all paranoid. I've always hated that

Those matches in the LTC and NTC count double toward your rank, thus making it more "sensitive".

 

[buckshotshoey]

Before we went to Vegas, I was a 3, on the edge of a 4. After the LTC, which by the way I couldn't attend because of work, my team captain moved me up to a 4. He new I was on the edge and didn't want me moving up while at vegas. So I went in as a 4. Lost against a 6, then won against a 6, then lost to a 2! Had a great time though. Hope to go again someday.

 

[TheNewSharkster]

Win percentage combined with average innings give you your innings per game in matches you win.
Your rank is based on your best 10 out of your last 20. Tourney matches count as 2. It is certainly possible to have a very high winning percentage and keep your rank, but you will be within one match with low innings of moving up, or possibly as a result of a good league owner.

Holding people out that you know are likely to move up may be considered poor sportsmanship, as the goal should always be to win as dominantly as possible. Its mot against the technical rules, but a good owner will be keeping an eye out for this and address it. You get the chance to address it yourself by certifying skill levels before the LTC. This is assuming they players are playing at a level above their rank, which you seem to imply. If not, then no worries.

I do not agree it is poor sportsmanship to hold somebody back. For example, say a team has a player who only played a handful of times compared to other players on the team. The captain throws him even though he has a lower chance of winning. That is definitely not unsportsman like conduct. The opposing team doesn't get to decide who you play or the reasons you play them.

 

[trob]

Of course it's sandbagging. If your doing anything to keep your skill level from going up your sandbagging. In the apa it's necessary. You have no choice unless you want to throw your opportunity to goto Vegas out the window. This is why sandbagging will always exist in handicap leagues

 

[nine_ball6970]

Here is the scenario:

1. Our team is qualified for LTC in APA 9ball. For those who do not know LTC stands for Local Team Championship. The winners of this tournament go to Vegas for Nationals

2. It is near the end of spring session. LTC happens right after spring session ends. Our team is in first place.

3. Several players on the team have won a high percentage of matches played. So they *might* be close to moving up a skill level

This is recognized by the captain. He decided to not play some players so they didn't change skill levels before LTC. These players *DID NOT* miss shots or lose matches on purpose. They simply did not play.

Is this sandbagging?

Am I the only person who would prefer to play those players so they might go up? I would prefer for them to get some experience at the higher skill level before LTC. There is enough pressure on them anyway, so I wouldn't want them to feel more pressure by playing as a skill level they are not used to.

 

[TheNewSharkster]

Of course it's sandbagging. If your doing anything to keep your skill level from going up your sandbagging. In the apa it's necessary. You have no choice unless you want to throw your opportunity to goto Vegas out the window. This is why sandbagging will always exist in handicap leagues

May I ask how it is possible to "sandbag" if you are not playing?

 

[Solomon]

Am I the only person who would prefer to play those players so they might go up? I would prefer for them to get some experience at the higher skill level before LTC. There is enough pressure on them anyway, so I wouldn't want them to feel more pressure by playing as a skill level they are not used to.

It depends on the circumstances. If them going up in skill level means that you'd have to dismantle the team or forfeit a match because of the 23 rule, I definitely wouldn't want them to go up prior to LTC.

 

[Pete]

I haven't played in the APA for years. I felt for me FOR ME that I wanted to test my skill as a player win, loose, or draw. I didn't want to have me held back so my handicap would be lower and give me an edge.

So I'm not saying it's sandbagging, but think it's a problem with pool excellence (which is what I strive for). And why people don't seem to get better over the years. But for it, I blame the 23 point rule (unless it's changed). If the handicaps worked, you wouldn't need that rule at all (but for the most part handicapping gives the edge to the better player)...

Pete

 

[TheNewSharkster]

I haven't played in the APA for years. I felt for me FOR ME that I wanted to test my skill as a player win, loose, or draw. I didn't want to have me held back so my handicap would be lower and give me an edge.

So I'm not saying it's sandbagging, but think it's a problem with pool excellence (which is what I strive for). And why people don't seem to get better over the years. But for it, I blame the 23 point rule (unless it's changed). If the handicaps worked, you wouldn't need that rule at all (but for the most part handicapping gives the edge to the better player)...

Pete

I think the 23 rule works well enough in APA 9ball. I mean a SL1 needs 14 balls vs 75 balls for a SP9. Doesn't really matter who wins each game.

However, in 8ball a SL2 would need to win 2 games again a SL7. That SL7 might be a SL9 in 9ball.

 

[Ken_4fun]

No a smart captain would have the players "throw off" and lose to ensure they don't go up later.

That would be smart thing to do. It happens in all sports.

Ken

 

[Harold Smith]

Sure sounds like sandbagging to me. You really need to ask yourself, and be honest with yourself, does it sound like sandbagging to you. Your true character will come out. The other question is this, would you want this to happen to you.--Smitty

 

[TheNewSharkster]

Sure sounds like sandbagging to me. You really need to ask yourself, and be honest with yourself, does it sound like sandbagging to you. Your true character will come out. The other question is this, would you want this to happen to you.--Smitty

I don't think it is sandbagging. Matter of fact I think it is impossible to truly sandbag if you do not play. To me sandbagging is where a player misses on purpose or pads innings.

I also do not understand your question. Are you asking if I would like an opposing team to sit a player the final week of the season? If that is the question than I can tell you I could care less if my opponent doesn't play a specific person.

 

[Solomon]

...If that is the question than I can tell you I could care less if my opponent doesn't play a specific person.

You realize that you are literally saying that you care? If "you couldn't care less", you wouldn't care.

 

[Mrdodd72]

Gamesmanship

Gamesmanship is the excuse used by those who believe that the ends justify the means. So you have to ask yourself; what is your goal as a player or a team? Is it more important that hoist the trophy, knowing that your teams true ability was suppressed in order to gain the advantage, or that your team succeed and achieved all that it could, facing the toughest competition. With that said, I understand that's the way the APA works, and it is well within the rules. Just remember, having the right to do something, doesn't necessarily make it the right thing to do.

 

[jeromyh13]

doesn't seem like sandbagging. i went to vegas for the APA last month and i was SHOCKED. teams are STACKED. We saw 4 running racks like champs.

 

[Solomon]

It definitely wasn't sandbagging. You all would have had to sit someone out regardless. Now if you would have said that the captain told someone not to show up so that you all could forfeit a match rather than have that person play in fear of their SL going up; that would fall in the realm of sandbagging or trying to beat the system.

 

[TheNewSharkster]

Gamesmanship is the excuse used by those who believe that the ends justify the means. So you have to ask yourself; what is your goal as a player or a team? Is it more important that hoist the trophy, knowing that your teams true ability was suppressed in order to gain the advantage, or that your team succeed and achieved all that it could, facing the toughest competition. With that said, I understand that's the way the APA works, and it is well within the rules. Just remember, having the right to do something, doesn't necessarily make it the right thing to do.

The goal is to make it to nationals in vegas and I am not sure how by not playing somebody it is poor gamemaship

 

[Duane Hinton]

Not playing someone is fine. But... if a team has several players that this applies too... then it looks like the sandbagging during the session has already happened and now you are in "protection" mode. You need to ask yourself: Did every player attempt to make every shot and win every game they could in the most fair and efficient manner? If a single shot was missed on purpose and not marked as a safety by any player, then...BANNED FOR LIFE AND THROWN INTO THE TORTURE CHAMBER!

30 Year APA Member and still finding league night awesome!

Don't know weather this post was intended to be sarcastic or not, but this is a bit extreme. During the regular session, some nights you just don't feel up to shooting your best. You might be thinking about work related issues, or family issues, or any number of things and not totally focused on shooting your best. Happens to those of us that have other things going on in our lives. Just keep in mind league tournament play is a whole different beast compared to regular league night.

Sitting out players to keep them from going up before LTC is not the smartest move. They can lose their stroke or edge needed for the tournament. Try playing them against better players, if they win great for the team and if they lose as the numbers would suggest, then that great for the team as well. You just don't want those teammates all going up during the LTC and then not being able to play a full roster.

Our team, this past June won our LTC with one player going up from a 4 to a 5 and then at nationals one of our 5s (not the same player) went up to a 6. That wouldn't have been such a problem, but our 2 had to go home after the second day of nationals and we were left with only being able to play 4 players. We still placed 65th. And I do have to say, I didn't see any players that I thought were under handicapped at this years national tournament.