I agree. What is the deal with the elbow dropping? Why is it so bad if you can make balls? I would really like for someone to explain this to me.
Stroke feedback??
- Thread starter iownthe412
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I agree. What is the deal with the elbow dropping? Why is it so bad if you can make balls? I would really like for someone to explain this to me.
I'm sure you don't want to give out free help but any suggestions would be much appreciated. Follow through techniques, etc...
It really has nothing to do with making balls....It has more to do with "consistent" CB control.
If you are familiar with BHE (I think you are because you used it on a shot in your video) you will know that as long as the bridge hand and grip hand starts in alignment....and as long as you keep your bridge hand stable...you will likely make most shots even on a slight mishit....which is the beauty behind the BHE tecnique...
However....on that slight mishit....you are NOT going to get the same CB reaction that you originally intended...and may end up slightly out of line.
Now what does the elbow drop do????....
As long is it is a consistent elbow drop for every shot....nothing...but if the elbow drop is not consistent....neither will your CB control be.
The reason that most (pro) elbow droppers get away with it is because #1 it is a very consistent move...#2 because it is done after impact with the CB...which means it has no effect on the precision of tip to CB contact.
When you first start to learn to play pool...it is all about pocketing the ball...you can't continue your run if you can't pocket the ball.....The better you get at the game...and the closer to "pro" level you get...the more the game is about CB control and less about pocketing balls.
So...in short...it is not "that" you are dropping your elbow...it is "how" you are dropping your elbow.:wink:
All of those issues can be corrected by incorporating a consistent pendilum style stroke. Start at the same place every time (your SET position), pin your elbow and restrict the motion to your forearm, and finish your stroke in the same place every time. Take your grip hand "home", usually right up to a point in your chest or ribs.
Steve
It doesn't make any difference...if you can make every shot.
But, if you don't have a consistent, repeatable stroke, when you miss, how can you possibly figure out why you missed? And if you don't know exactly what went wrong, how can you know what to do to fix it?
We teach the pendilum stroke for pure consistency. If that is your stroke, if it breaks down, you know it immediately, and you know how to correct the problem.
If you already shoot like Archer, do whatever you want! If you don't, and you want to get better, it usually comes down to your stroke.
A great shot made with a poor stroke is just an accident.
Steve
i realize your just banging balls, i do the same. and you were playing lazy real lazy-I'm guilty of the same thing, I do it way to often. Its not good practice, Charlie Williams was on my ass like white on rice about it when he spent a week with me, so I'm on yours now(in a friendly way). Its better to not play than play lazy-you can get bad habits that way.
Here is what I saw, you one stroked every shot until you were bridged up on the rail shooting the 7? ball, about your 6 or 7 shot, you 3 stroked it and looked good, then you ent hack to the point and shoot mode, which means you have hit a pile of balls or are talented or both, because if you can do that good and you do, you have the ability to play good with some effort.
A couple times I watched you come up a bit fast-I attribute that to being lazy, speaking from my own experience.
So the brutal truth is stop banging and start practicing hard, even if it for less time, work at it man. Dont take it for granted cause you line up good and shoot straight. Thats what CW told me, and I'm passing his professional opinion to you. And I'm guilty as you are-so I aint knocking you a bit.
The pool teachers like to promote the no elbow drop and for their purposes I agree with them, but it is possible to play great pool and drop your elbow that was a big topic around here 3 or 4 years ago. I'm not knocking the pool school BCA teachers here they are good guys and are a HUGE assett to pool, I wish to hell I had one 28 years ago when my dad bought me a box, I'd play better now.
But practicing lazy with no purpose can harm your game, one day this last summer I threw all 15 out 3 times I missed about the 41st or 42nd ball. My friend came over then and shot my nuts off, I couldnt miss until it mattered-we awalys gamble. So even though I was banging good, I wasnt playing good.
best of luck,
Eric
Here is what I saw, you one stroked every shot until you were bridged up on the rail shooting the 7? ball, about your 6 or 7 shot, you 3 stroked it and looked good, then you ent hack to the point and shoot mode, which means you have hit a pile of balls or are talented or both, because if you can do that good and you do, you have the ability to play good with some effort.
A couple times I watched you come up a bit fast-I attribute that to being lazy, speaking from my own experience.
So the brutal truth is stop banging and start practicing hard, even if it for less time, work at it man. Dont take it for granted cause you line up good and shoot straight. Thats what CW told me, and I'm passing his professional opinion to you. And I'm guilty as you are-so I aint knocking you a bit.
The pool teachers like to promote the no elbow drop and for their purposes I agree with them, but it is possible to play great pool and drop your elbow that was a big topic around here 3 or 4 years ago. I'm not knocking the pool school BCA teachers here they are good guys and are a HUGE assett to pool, I wish to hell I had one 28 years ago when my dad bought me a box, I'd play better now.
But practicing lazy with no purpose can harm your game, one day this last summer I threw all 15 out 3 times I missed about the 41st or 42nd ball. My friend came over then and shot my nuts off, I couldnt miss until it mattered-we awalys gamble. So even though I was banging good, I wasnt playing good.
best of luck,
Eric
I think this is a non-issue. While the spoken norm is to keep a steady elbow, there are a wide range high calibre players who drop their elbows in snooker, Ronnie O'Sullivan being a particularly well-known example of it. Not to boast mate, but I receive many compliments on my own stroke on the baize and I elbow drop slightly as well.
I noticed that your stance is quite narrow (knees and back bent) which pushes your torso upwards and away from the cue and you rectify it by contorting it sideways to pull in closer, although it is understandable if it's because of the room's narrow space. If you want to straighten up your foundation, try to place your feet shoulder-width apart and pointed in the same direction as you are delivering the cue. Then bend your back at the hips instead of lurching over the table. In snooker, keeping a straight back is absolutely fundamental to consistent cueing and helps reduce the incursion of back pain during long sessions. This is relatively easy to do since American Pool tables are quite short, so try this out and see if it helps wring out any quibbles in your stroke.
But above all mate, do what you feel is comfortable and works best for your stroke. If everybody truly played the same way, then everybody would use the same cue.
I think the important thing to remember about the elbow drop is that the grip hand shouldn't drop at all, it should be the forward motion of the lower arm that forces it to drop.
Elbow drop is an explosive topic. FWIW, from what I saw you're actually lifting your elbow a little on the backstroke, which means you're raising the butt of the cue and probably chopping down on the CB, which isn't ideal, as I know from hard-won experience. If you can get rid of that and stop standing up too quickly on some shots, you'll be a player. Best of luck to you on mastering both your stroke and this difficult game.
Thanks for your info. The elbow drop thing works for me and I can play so I may not fully eliminate it but minimize it. I would love to get to the pro level and i don't think I am too far off but I do need to settle down when I'm at the table and like Eric said..."stop playin lazy." The cool thing is is that I have all of you on AZ to have my back and help me with all my bad habits.
Thanks again guys and Happy New Year!!!
k:
i realize your just banging balls, i do the same. and you were playing lazy real lazy-I'm guilty of the same thing, I do it way to often. Its not good practice, Charlie Williams was on my ass like white on rice about it when he spent a week with me, so I'm on yours now(in a friendly way). Its better to not play than play lazy-you can get bad habits that way.
Here is what I saw, you one stroked every shot until you were bridged up on the rail shooting the 7? ball, about your 6 or 7 shot, you 3 stroked it and looked good, then you ent hack to the point and shoot mode, which means you have hit a pile of balls or are talented or both, because if you can do that good and you do, you have the ability to play good with some effort.
A couple times I watched you come up a bit fast-I attribute that to being lazy, speaking from my own experience.
So the brutal truth is stop banging and start practicing hard, even if it for less time, work at it man. Dont take it for granted cause you line up good and shoot straight. Thats what CW told me, and I'm passing his professional opinion to you. And I'm guilty as you are-so I aint knocking you a bit.
The pool teachers like to promote the no elbow drop and for their purposes I agree with them, but it is possible to play great pool and drop your elbow that was a big topic around here 3 or 4 years ago. I'm not knocking the pool school BCA teachers here they are good guys and are a HUGE assett to pool, I wish to hell I had one 28 years ago when my dad bought me a box, I'd play better now.
But practicing lazy with no purpose can harm your game, one day this last summer I threw all 15 out 3 times I missed about the 41st or 42nd ball. My friend came over then and shot my nuts off, I couldnt miss until it mattered-we awalys gamble. So even though I was banging good, I wasnt playing good.
best of luck,
Eric
Eric,
As usual your posts are right on point and very motivating. Hopefully, someday I will get to the point Charlie is at and I'll be able to make a trip out to stay with you and shoot some pool in your palace! I will stop practicing lazy and the next video I put up will be "practice" and not just bangin away.
Thanks Eric and Happy New Year!!!
Ian
I love reading the majority...
Keep stroking the way you stroke man dont change it......I wonder if it was Busty or Earl in the video and not you if the comments would still be to stop dropping your elbow. Point is...NOBDOY shoots the same and if that works for you STICK WITH IT. Break down YOUR fundamentals...dont change it to someone else's. Top pros NEVER once told me to do this or that to my stroke and my stroke is wavy as hell. Instead they told me where on the cb I should be hitting and how long my follow through should be THATS IT. Understanding THAT will show you how you need to adjust your stroke to get the effect you want. Think OUTSIDE the box...dont conform to it.
Keep stroking the way you stroke man dont change it......I wonder if it was Busty or Earl in the video and not you if the comments would still be to stop dropping your elbow. Point is...NOBDOY shoots the same and if that works for you STICK WITH IT. Break down YOUR fundamentals...dont change it to someone else's. Top pros NEVER once told me to do this or that to my stroke and my stroke is wavy as hell. Instead they told me where on the cb I should be hitting and how long my follow through should be THATS IT. Understanding THAT will show you how you need to adjust your stroke to get the effect you want. Think OUTSIDE the box...dont conform to it.
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Thanks man. I think people are just suggesting but I am not going to change anything drastically. I'm trying to come up with a solid practice routine. I would like to enter a pro tourney by next year sometime. It's hard to play at that level when you have a full time job, a 2 year old, and a wedding to help plan by June but I'm going to figure it out.
Just wondering....how long did they tell you your follow through should be?
How did they determine how long it should be?
How do you measure your follow through?
Is it the same length every time?
Steve
Probably not the best advice I've read on this forum.
For some people, eliminating the elbow drop is the best thing that could happen to their stroke. For others, maybe no so much. But to make a blanket statement like that is just plain crazy.
If someone is having problems with a consistent, straight stroke, quite often getting rid of the elbow drop is the best solution.
You can have a straight stroke with an elbow drop, but it's really difficult NOT to have a straight stroke if the elbow remains fixed throughout the stroke.
Steve
Stroke feedback
I noticed 2 very common technical issues. In your video, you can see the first issue quite well in the very first shot since it shows your technique from behind.
1. You have a tendency to stroke to the left or right based on the english you are trying to put on the cue ball. Straighten your follow through even when using extreme english.
2. Your forearm is slightly forward in your pendulum, at the time you contact the cue ball. This is why you are forced to drop your elbow in order to keep the cue stick level and provide the necessary follow through. The forearm should be relatively vertical to the floor at the time of contact with the cue ball. This allows for a more predictable delivery on the cue ball and avoids being in the up stroke or down stroke at the time of delivery.
Change these two things and you may see a noticable improvement.
I noticed 2 very common technical issues. In your video, you can see the first issue quite well in the very first shot since it shows your technique from behind.
1. You have a tendency to stroke to the left or right based on the english you are trying to put on the cue ball. Straighten your follow through even when using extreme english.
2. Your forearm is slightly forward in your pendulum, at the time you contact the cue ball. This is why you are forced to drop your elbow in order to keep the cue stick level and provide the necessary follow through. The forearm should be relatively vertical to the floor at the time of contact with the cue ball. This allows for a more predictable delivery on the cue ball and avoids being in the up stroke or down stroke at the time of delivery.
Change these two things and you may see a noticable improvement.
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I would need more video of what I call shot making testers before I could really evaluate your style of stroking properly.
From the video, there is nothing needing to be changed. About the back hand serve at the opening shot of your clip, watch the clip of mosconi in the slip stroke thread and he does the same on the opening break shot.
If it ain't broke, don't fix it. You cleared the table. Now, the real question is how well is your position play.
I would ask to see video of certain shots before I would venture to say what is needed, if any thing. I would ask to see how accurate you can draw back, go forward and put spin on the ball. Basiclly, can you put the cue ball anywhere you want to plus make the OB. I would then go from there.
But hey, I'm no certified, make my living teaching pool instructor. Just someone thats spends alot of time at the table and pays attention to whats going on.
Now, about shot making testers and thats just what they are. They test every aspect of your shot making, bridge, stance and stroke.
Here's a few:
First 6 in the corner, then 11 in the corner and then 9 in the corner.
From the video, there is nothing needing to be changed. About the back hand serve at the opening shot of your clip, watch the clip of mosconi in the slip stroke thread and he does the same on the opening break shot.
If it ain't broke, don't fix it. You cleared the table. Now, the real question is how well is your position play.
I would ask to see video of certain shots before I would venture to say what is needed, if any thing. I would ask to see how accurate you can draw back, go forward and put spin on the ball. Basiclly, can you put the cue ball anywhere you want to plus make the OB. I would then go from there.
But hey, I'm no certified, make my living teaching pool instructor. Just someone thats spends alot of time at the table and pays attention to whats going on.
Now, about shot making testers and thats just what they are. They test every aspect of your shot making, bridge, stance and stroke.
Here's a few:
First 6 in the corner, then 11 in the corner and then 9 in the corner.
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On the very first shot you swerved your stroke to apply right english. Move your bridge so the cue tip hits the ball where you need it and stroke straight.
You also tend to drop your elbow. Having an additional pivot point in your arm other than your elbow decreases the likelihood of hitting the cue ball accurately. Be a statue from the elbow up. Moving your body midstroke also reduces accuracy of the cuetip/cue ball contact.
Get down low to aim and stay there until the cue ball is long gone.
Keep at it. You're doing well.
You also tend to drop your elbow. Having an additional pivot point in your arm other than your elbow decreases the likelihood of hitting the cue ball accurately. Be a statue from the elbow up. Moving your body midstroke also reduces accuracy of the cuetip/cue ball contact.
Get down low to aim and stay there until the cue ball is long gone.
Keep at it. You're doing well.
A further point could be made by noting the stroke of Raymond Ceulemanns, a World Champion 3-cushion player who has a notably abbreviated follow through but still achieves monster spin. The follow through is only to ensure a smooth stroke, which in turn delivers the cue tip accurately to the cue ball. As soon as the cue tip finishes compressing the cue ball departs. If your cue stick weighed as little as a cue ball, this would be different. My follow through is occasionally as long as an inch but I can still draw the cue ball the length of the table on a table length shot.