Possibly figured out my mystery right-hand spin and cue going left

dquarasr

Registered
I've been fighting chicken wing, and unintended right-hand spin. I thought I had exorcised unintended spin by keeping my elbow up. That did help, but it did not eliminate it. Confounding.

I've been scratching my head trying to figure out how I can be getting right-hand spin on the CB, while my follow through often is actually left of the intended shot line.

When I check my stroke by using the line between the hard rail and the cushion, I usually find that the tip is coming left of the line, which I thought was because of chicken winging. I somewhat verified that via video recording myself.

But there are times I keep the elbow quiet, yet still get unintended right spin, and despite how much I focus on cueing straight, the tip is about 1/2 to a full tip LEFT of the straight line, particularly so with a long follow through on higher-speed shots. WTF?!?

I went back to the rail/cushion line. Weird: using a very, very slow motion (eliminating any deviation due to putting some juice on the shot), my cue tip goes slightly right until I reach CB impact point, then, inexplicably, follows through left. My stroke is a very small "s" curve where my back hand goes left, then right, making the tip go right then left. What?!?

I played around with my wrist position. "Normal" (what's been grooved into my stroke) is a position where my wrist is slightly bent towards my torso (kind of like how SVB holds his cue - and no, I did not intentionally mimic this trying to be like him).

When I moved my wrist straighter, the "s" motion was reduced. Moving it even more, such that it's directly straight below my arm, the "s" motion is gone, and so is the unintended spin. My accuracy on longer shots seems better, too. I don't understand the physiology of it, but if it fixes my "s" stroke, I'm ok with it.

So I don't have to consciously think about my wrist position, I found that if I "feel" the weight of the cue on my pinkie finger, my wrist more naturally falls down below my arm. So, I'm going to try that for a bit to see how it works out.

Comments welcomed and appreciated, especially if anyone can confirm my back hand's "s" path with a bent wrist position. Thanks.

Doug
 
Doug
buy a bowling glove that minimizes wrist movement or wrist splint that keeps your wrist neutral
i cant provide a link from where i am at
use it for practice
see what happens and let me know
i am not an instructor
jmho
 
Doug
buy a bowling glove that minimizes wrist movement or wrist splint that keeps your wrist neutral
i cant provide a link from where i am at
use it for practice
see what happens and let me know
i am not an instructor
jmho
In the past I’ve wondered why I haven’t seen that. I want to play like Earl but not look like him with his weird accessories. 😁
 
In the past I’ve wondered why I haven’t seen that. I want to play like Earl but not look like him with his weird accessories. 😁
I used one for a while because i tended to turn my wrist
It gave me instant feedback and helped extinguish the habit
I would wear it for 15-30 minutes then take it off
If its not for you thats ok
Just trying to help😃
Good luck with your game
 
Last edited:
Well heck, haven't I been saying this all along? Having the wrist as a straight extension of the arm with the pinkie as the anchor is what I recommend and play that way. I do practice what I preach. But players who play with grip pressure on the front two fingers can't play that way, because the wrist will be in a slightly cocked position.

Good for you for discovering it. Figuring it out for yourself will have longer lasting results because it's yours.
 
I've been fighting chicken wing, and unintended right-hand spin. I thought I had exorcised unintended spin by keeping my elbow up. That did help, but it did not eliminate it. Confounding.

I've been scratching my head trying to figure out how I can be getting right-hand spin on the CB, while my follow through often is actually left of the intended shot line.

When I check my stroke by using the line between the hard rail and the cushion, I usually find that the tip is coming left of the line, which I thought was because of chicken winging. I somewhat verified that via video recording myself.

But there are times I keep the elbow quiet, yet still get unintended right spin, and despite how much I focus on cueing straight, the tip is about 1/2 to a full tip LEFT of the straight line, particularly so with a long follow through on higher-speed shots. WTF?!?

I went back to the rail/cushion line. Weird: using a very, very slow motion (eliminating any deviation due to putting some juice on the shot), my cue tip goes slightly right until I reach CB impact point, then, inexplicably, follows through left. My stroke is a very small "s" curve where my back hand goes left, then right, making the tip go right then left. What?!?

I played around with my wrist position. "Normal" (what's been grooved into my stroke) is a position where my wrist is slightly bent towards my torso (kind of like how SVB holds his cue - and no, I did not intentionally mimic this trying to be like him).

When I moved my wrist straighter, the "s" motion was reduced. Moving it even more, such that it's directly straight below my arm, the "s" motion is gone, and so is the unintended spin. My accuracy on longer shots seems better, too. I don't understand the physiology of it, but if it fixes my "s" stroke, I'm ok with it.

So I don't have to consciously think about my wrist position, I found that if I "feel" the weight of the cue on my pinkie finger, my wrist more naturally falls down below my arm. So, I'm going to try that for a bit to see how it works out.

Comments welcomed and appreciated, especially if anyone can confirm my back hand's "s" path with a bent wrist position. Thanks.

Doug
Not an instructor but that's what letting my ring finger lead does for me. There is kind of one way for my wrist to not put weird stuff on the ball and it happens when I feel the cue on my ring finger. YMMV and again I'm not an instructor, I feel your experiment is a good one.
 
Not an instructor but that's what letting my ring finger lead does for me. There is kind of one way for my wrist to not put weird stuff on the ball and it happens when I feel the cue on my ring finger. YMMV and again I'm not an instructor, I feel your experiment is a good one.
Thanks.

I’m hunkered down for Ian. The Weber normally on the porch is inside blocking shots from the head string but I still have plenty of room to drill. I bet I’ll have lots of time to be at the table the next three days.

It’s so weird. For kicks I tried it again, on purpose, having my wrist at the “bad” angle and moving my arm through the stroke, very, very slowly; the cue tip inextricably moves right to CB contact point, then left in my follow through. I dunno why and at this point I don’t care. All I know is that if I keep my wrist straight below my arm, the cue tip goes straight - damndest thing….

Like CJ says, “the game is the teacher”. I’m just blessed to have a table at home to experiment with various things from stance, to elbow and shoulder position, to, … well, everything.
 
It’s so weird. For kicks I tried it again, on purpose, having my wrist at the “bad” angle and moving my arm through the stroke, very, very slowly; the cue tip inextricably moves right to CB contact point, then left in my follow through. I dunno why and at this point I don’t care. All I know is that if I keep my wrist straight below my arm, the cue tip goes straight - damndest thing….
Sounds to me like your grip hand moves in an arc, toward your body for the first half (up to contact), then away from it for the second half (follow through).

Just a theory...

pj
chgo
 
Sounds to me like your grip hand moves in an arc, toward your body for the first half (up to contact), then away from it for the second half (follow through).

Just a theory...

pj
chgo
Yup. At this point I don’t think I care. I’m just happy I may have found (and fixed?) yet another flaw in my fundamentals on the road to improving.
 
Thanks.

I’m hunkered down for Ian. The Weber normally on the porch is inside blocking shots from the head string but I still have plenty of room to drill. I bet I’ll have lots of time to be at the table the next three days.

It’s so weird. For kicks I tried it again, on purpose, having my wrist at the “bad” angle and moving my arm through the stroke, very, very slowly; the cue tip inextricably moves right to CB contact point, then left in my follow through. I dunno why and at this point I don’t care. All I know is that if I keep my wrist straight below my arm, the cue tip goes straight - damndest thing….

Like CJ says, “the game is the teacher”. I’m just blessed to have a table at home to experiment with various things from stance, to elbow and shoulder position, to, … well, everything.
You found your stoke... congrats!!! (y)
 
Nice debugging. You are the world’s leading expert on your own stroke.

Barry Stark has some really good detailed YT vids about subtle wrist/finger stuff along the lines of what you’re discovering & what Fran mentioned. Can’t remember all details, but was most the helpful content that I found when I was fine tuning this stuff about 2 yrs ago.

Personally I think many instructors go on a lot about elbow stuff (drop no drop, yatta yatta) but its relatively simple joint motion to align & get consistent. Much less info out there about subtle wrist articulation. Its a much more complex joint and IMO the balance of developing good alignment, power + touch, smooth follow through with a nicely timed, free flowing stroke, has alot to do with the stuff you’re exploring.

Enjoy, its the journey not the destination!
 
Last edited:
Nice debugging. You are the world’s leading expert on your own stroke.

Barry Stark has some really good detailed YT vids about subtle wrist/finger stuff along the lines of what you’re discovering & what Fran mentioned. Can’t remember all details, but was most the helpful content that I found when I was fine tuning this stuff about 2 yrs ago.

Personally I think many instructors go on a lot about elbow stuff (drop no drop, yatta yatta) but its relatively simple joint motion to align & get consistent. Much less info out there about subtle wrist articulation. Its a much more complex joint and IMO the balance of developing good alignment, power + touch, smooth follow through with a nicely timed, free flowing stroke, has alot to do with the stuff you’re exploring.

Enjoy, its the journey not the destination!
Thanks.

I've seen many Barry Stark (BS! :) ) videos. He recommends furling / unfurling the fingers (starting with the pinkie) as the cue comes back. I tried that, but it didn't seem to have helped. I get better results feeling the weight of my cue on my pinkie.

Still working on it. I don't know why, but it's just so hard to trust the process. On many shots, where there is wide-open access, and a shot 0 to 10 degrees, I can usually feel the shot, feel my wrist, arm, elbow, stance, etc., all in the right position and execute the shot exactly as intended including applying intended spin. Other shots, with distractions of other balls, maybe a slightly more difficult cut, or position a concern, I find it very hard to focus on just the stroke. I mean, once everything is defined and planned, one shot is mostly just like another with respect to delivering the cue in a straight line. This is the HAMB part. Trusting the shot. Ugh. I gotta learn how to focus on cue delivery per plan made while standing up, to the exclusion of all else. That is my challenge. (I bet I'm not alone in this regard.)
 
Thanks.

I've seen many Barry Stark (BS! :) ) videos. He recommends furling / unfurling the fingers (starting with the pinkie) as the cue comes back. I tried that, but it didn't seem to have helped. I get better results feeling the weight of my cue on my pinkie.

Still working on it. I don't know why, but it's just so hard to trust the process. On many shots, where there is wide-open access, and a shot 0 to 10 degrees, I can usually feel the shot, feel my wrist, arm, elbow, stance, etc., all in the right position and execute the shot exactly as intended including applying intended spin. Other shots, with distractions of other balls, maybe a slightly more difficult cut, or position a concern, I find it very hard to focus on just the stroke. I mean, once everything is defined and planned, one shot is mostly just like another with respect to delivering the cue in a straight line. This is the HAMB part. Trusting the shot. Ugh. I gotta learn how to focus on cue delivery per plan made while standing up, to the exclusion of all else. That is my challenge. (I bet I'm not alone in this regard.)
If you keep stopping and trying to correct every error in your game or form, it could have diminishing returns. Take a long break from all that. Stop setting up shots. Stop doing drills. Just play --- flaws and all. Play and play and play for awhile and don't think about anything else. Whatever you taught yourself will work it's way into your game over time. Never forget why you started in the first place. It's fun.
 
If you keep stopping and trying to correct every error in your game or form, it could have diminishing returns. Take a long break from all that. Stop setting up shots. Stop doing drills. Just play --- flaws and all. Play and play and play for awhile and don't think about anything else. Whatever you taught yourself will work it's way into your game over time. Never forget why you started in the first place. It's fun.
Great idea, FC.

I try not to obsess with drills except maybe starting each session 10 minutes with straight in stop shots to groove my stroke and warm up. Other than that I mix in some drills with playing racks of 8; 3 or 4 ball ghost (I’m not good enough for 6 yet); or Bowlliards, which I think is lots of fun.

Drills include speed control, yo-yo, draw and follow, short and long semicircle position, and sometimes my Achilles heel shots. I probably do 25-30% drills, 70-75% playing games I mention above. I’m serious about learning the game but not trying to be a pro as I’m too old (67 in November). I don’t want to end up making achieving proficiency feel like a job. It’s supposed to be fun, right? 😁

Oh, and I try to work on only one or two things at a time and build the foundation.

In the last few months I seem to have nailed my own formula for consistently placing my feet and torso; and recognizing (if not executing yet) good stroke timing (smooth acceleration). Still working on being more consistent with head and face position, as well as keeping my elbow and shoulder quiet. Per this thread, most recently working on grip.

Thanks for replying.
 
Great idea, FC.

I try not to obsess with drills except maybe starting each session 10 minutes with straight in stop shots to groove my stroke and warm up. Other than that I mix in some drills with playing racks of 8; 3 or 4 ball ghost (I’m not good enough for 6 yet); or Bowlliards, which I think is lots of fun.

Drills include speed control, yo-yo, draw and follow, short and long semicircle position, and sometimes my Achilles heel shots. I probably do 25-30% drills, 70-75% playing games I mention above. I’m serious about learning the game but not trying to be a pro as I’m too old (67 in November). I don’t want to end up making achieving proficiency feel like a job. It’s supposed to be fun, right? 😁

Oh, and I try to work on only one or two things at a time and build the foundation.

In the last few months I seem to have nailed my own formula for consistently placing my feet and torso; and recognizing (if not executing yet) good stroke timing (smooth acceleration). Still working on being more consistent with head and face position, as well as keeping my elbow and shoulder quiet. Per this thread, most recently working on grip.

Thanks for replying.
Fine, but at some point, stop everything and just play. Let all that stuff leave your head. Don't worry...you won't forget it. Just put it all out of your mind for awhile.
 
  • Like
Reactions: bbb
Fine, but at some point, stop everything and just play. Let all that stuff leave your head. Don't worry...you won't forget it. Just put it all out of your mind for awhile.
Got it, thanks. I also play weekly league scotch doubles and to simulate league play I also try to play at least once a week with my doubles partner, head-to-head, and then simulate the scotch match alternating shots.

I’m cooped up with Ian lockdown (just northwest of Orlando) so I may play guilt-free at least tomorrow. I’ll set aside the drills for a while.
 
Got it, thanks. I also play weekly league scotch doubles and to simulate league play I also try to play at least once a week with my doubles partner, head-to-head, and then simulate the scotch match alternating shots.

I’m cooped up with Ian lockdown (just northwest of Orlando) so I may play guilt-free at least tomorrow. I’ll set aside the drills for a while.
As an aside... my friends just moved to South Venice this year. Everyone told them to pick the west coast of FL as there is less hurricane activity. They wound up having to evacuate and are staying with friends in Sarasota, which is no bargain right now as they are getting pounded there. Boy, what luck.... the 4th worst hurricane to hit Florida in it's history. You're in the thick of it too in the Orlando area. I hope you're able to maintain power. You have to keep the pool table light lit! All the best to you!
 
Back
Top