Steel Joint vs. non-steel Joint (Phenolic / Juma / Elforyn / Ivory) – Which Do You Prefer?

july9x

july9x

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I'm curious to hear from players who have tried both steel and non-metal joints such as Phenolic / Juma / Elforyn / Ivory (white or black hard plastic typed meterial)

Which do you prefer, and why? I'm interested in differences in hit feel, feedback, balance, and overall playability.

Does one feel stiffer or provide better feedback than the other, or is the difference mostly personal preference?

For those who have owned or played with both, which would you choose for your playing cue?

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I have one cue with an ivory joint sleeve with a modified 3/8x10 pin. I find the hit too soft for my liking, don't know if it's the ivory, but putting the same shafts on other cues and the hit is a lot more stiffer, again, could be the butt construction as well.

For years, my favorite joint type was the classic 5/16x14 SS joint, I have several cues with that joint and my Schon STL3 was my main player for a few years, until I got an old Carmeli player with the old standard 3/8x10 pin and a black collar (not sure what it's made of), this cues has a solid and stiff hit, I have another custom with a modified 3/8x10 pin with a linen phenolic collar, which also very stiff.
and again, butt construction may have also something to do with it.

In the last year and a half, since I returned to the game, I've rotating between almost all my cues. And as for now, I find I don't like the SS joint that much, it does feel that it adds deflection a bit.
I like a stiff cue with a solid hit, and the flat faced wood to wood with some phenolic type collars seems to hit the spot. I've never tried Elforyn joint but from what I read, it's probably feels closer to phenolic/linen resin than SS or real ivory.
 
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july9x said:
Ok professor, I will research what you provided. But dang can't you take it easy on a sub 500 Fargo, I'm new! :rolleyes: ?
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Blind tests have been done and players could not tell what the joint is. Its really has no effect on a cue's hit. The old 'this joint hits like this and that joint hits like that' are nothing but pool's version of old wive's tales. I've hit soft hitting steel and hard as fk ivory/phenolic big pin cues. Too many factors that DO affect the hit.
 
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skor said:
I have one cue with an ivory joint sleeve with a modified 3/8x10 pin. I find the hit too soft for my liking, don't know if it's the ivory, but putting the same shafts on other cues and the hit is a lot more stiffer, again, could be the butt construction as well.

For years, my favorite joint type was the classic 5/16x14 SS joint, I have several cues with that joint and my Schon STL3 was my main player for a few years, until I got an old Carmeli player with the old standard 3/8x10 pin and a black collar (not sure what it's made of), this cues has a solid and stiff hit, I have another custom with a modified 3/8x10 pin with a linen phenolic collar, which also very stiff.
and again, butt construction may have also something to do with it.

In the last year and a half, since I returned to the game, I've rotating between almost all my cues. And as for now, I find I don't like the SS joint that much, it does feel that it adds deflection a bit.
I like a stiff cue with a solid hit, and the flat faced wood to wood with some phenolic type collars seems to hit the spot. I've never tried Elforyn joint but from what I read, it's probably feels closer to phenolic/linen resin than SS or real ivory.
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Factors like the tip/ferrule/taper have waaaaaay more to do than what the joint is. Way more. I've hit big pin phenolics that were sorta softish and others like a SW are stiff as a phone pole. Same joint types huge difference in hit. Not the joint.
 
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garczar said:
Factors like the tip/ferrule/taper have waaaaaay more to do than what the joint is. Way more. I've hit big pin phenolics that were sorta softish and others like a SW are stiff as a phone pole. Same joint types huge difference in hit. Not the joint.
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I agree BUT I do feel from experience that the butt matters and change how the hit feels.
I too have SS jointed cues that feel softer than others. and as I mentioned, I have non metalic join that feels stiffer than SS.
That's why I say that it might be the whole butt and not just the joint that gives me that feedback.
 
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skor said:
As someone that can actually put the exact same shaft on different butts, I can totally say that the butt on all it's parts and construction matters. any cue maker will tel you the same
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If given ten cues with their joints covered how many do you think you could identify? Be surprised if anyone could pick three. Back when Mchesney did that test one player was a Meucci staff player and the cue he like the best turned out to be a steel joint Helmsetter. Stiffest cue i ever hit was a SW with that parabolic taper. Damn near unplayable imo. Back to the OP and i'm sticking with what i said: the joint has very little influence on how a cue plays.
 
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garczar said:
If given ten cues with their joints covered how many do you think you could identify? Be surprised if anyone could pick three. Back when Mchesney did that test one player was a Meucci staff player and the cue he like the best turned out to be a steel joint Helmsetter. Stiffest cue i ever hit was a SW with that parabolic taper. Damn near unplayable imo.
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If I was given 10 glasses of wine for blind tasting and asked which one is cabernet sauvignon, I would probably fail, but I could pick up a favorite and tell you why...

I agree that in such test it'll be impossible to guess the joint type, but I would be able to pick a favorite and explain why.
And again, I agree that SS doesn't mean stiffer or what not, but again I do feel that the butt make a different and contribute to how the cue feels. It's probably not just the joint but the sum of all it's parts and construction.
I just don't agree with the statement that the butt/joint don't matter and that it's all in the shaft. I don't need research to tell anything, I have my experience and enough equipment to put this to the test.
 
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skor said:
I have one cue with an ivory joint sleeve with a modified 3/8x10 pin. I find the hit too soft for my liking, don't know if it's the ivory, but putting the same shafts on other cues and the hit is a lot more stiffer, again, could be the butt construction as well.

For years, my favorite joint type was the classic 5/16x14 SS joint, I have several cues with that joint and my Schon STL3 was my main player for a few years, until I got an old Carmeli player with the old standard 3/8x10 pin and a black collar (not sure what it's made of), this cues has a solid and stiff hit, I have another custom with a modified 3/8x10 pin with a linen phenolic collar, which also very stiff.
and again, butt construction may have also something to do with it.

In the last year and a half, since I returned to the game, I've rotating between almost all my cues. And as for now, I find I don't like the SS joint that much, it does feel that it adds deflection a bit.
I like a stiff cue with a solid hit, and the flat faced wood to wood with some phenolic type collars seems to hit the spot. I've never tried Elforyn joint but from what I read, it's probably feels closer to phenolic/linen resin than SS or real ivory.
Click to expand...
do a blind test and report back
in the meucci test you had pros for gods sake and they couldnt tell
what you can (i think ) tell is the weight and balancr of the butt and how the vibrations of the hit transfer to your hand
 
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bbb said:
do a blind teat and report back
in the meucci test you had pros for gods sake and they couldnt tell
what you can (i think ) tell is the weight and balancr of the butt and how the vibrations of the hit transfer to your hand
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it's more than weight and balance, it's more than the joint pin or the joint collar.
Take two simple Plain Jane maple cues, with the same joint type, with the same weight and balance and compare with the exact same shaft, and you might feel a difference in the hit. Not all woods are the same, not all cue makers treat the wood the same, not all cues are constructed the same. just like old growth maple shaft feels different and plays different from fresh Chinese maple shaft (even it both are with the same taper, ferrule material and tip).
The joint type is part of the butt and between two equal butts (as much as possible) on terms of construction and specs it will make a noticeable difference.
 
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skor said:
As someone that can actually put the exact same shaft on different butts, I can totally say that the butt on all it's parts and construction matters. any cue maker will tel you the same
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I have a Dzuricky 4-pointer (ivory joint collar) and a Bob Frey Sneaky Pete (cocobolo) with black phenolic(?) joint collars. Both have 3/8x10 pins. I cannot confidently distinguish between the Dzuricky and Frey shafts by hit/feel, but I can easily tell the difference between the butts. The Frey feels like the Frey, no matter the shaft I try. The Dzuricky feels like the Dzuricky, no matter which shaft is attached. When I tried this experiment, all shafts were fitted with Moori medium tips. There's probably a subtle difference in the hit/feel between shafts, but it takes too much time to switch out shafts to feel that difference.
 
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july9x said:
Ok professor, I will research what you provided. But dang can't you take it easy on a sub 500 Fargo, I'm new! :rolleyes: ?
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he doesn’t mean to be grumpy. thats just the standard cadence for a lot of the regulars on here. after so many years of azbing every day, they forgot that there are other humans that dont live like that.

dont let it bother you and you’ll do alright.

i love garczars posts lol
 
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qolbrand said:
he doesn’t mean to be grumpy. thats just the standard cadence for a lot of the regulars on here. after so many years of azbing every day, they forgot that there are other humans that dont live like that.

dont let it bother you and you’ll do alright.

i love garczars posts lol
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Oh I know how he posts here LOL

So end of the day, same old same old it's not the cue it's the shooter 🤣
 
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skor said:
I agree BUT I do feel from experience that the butt matters and change how the hit feels.
I too have SS jointed cues that feel softer than others. and as I mentioned, I have non metalic join that feels stiffer than SS.
That's why I say that it might be the whole butt and not just the joint that gives me that feedback.
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tbh i think this is feedback not deflection. how it feels not how it is.
 
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skogstokig said:
tbh i think this is feedback not deflection. how it feels not how it is.
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I’ve compared 314-2 shafts and Rhino CF shafts between a cue with a 5/16x14 SS joint and a cue with a 3/8x10 joint with a non metallic joint and there is definitely a difference in deflection, of course it’s subtle but it’s there, more noticeable on longer shots and when more power is needed.
 
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