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Reload this Page i lightened up on my stroke by 30%, and im playing better
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evergruven
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06-10-2020, 03:05 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by FranCrimi View Post
By choking, I'm assuming you don't mean choking-up. You mean tight grip, right? Well, yes, for different reasons. Take the break for instance: If you stay loose on a break shot, the cue will fly out of your hands. It happened to me in a pro tournament. Landed on the table in front of mine, LOL. Luckily, no one was playing on it at the time. Also, when power breaking there is a slight transfer of power from a tighter grip to the cue. It may not be much, but it's there. But the tight grip doesn't have to be throughout the stroke. It can also be a grab just at impact.

Also, a tight grip helps when shooting shots off the rail with the cb frozen to the rail. With a loose grip, you're at risk of a miscue on those shots.
hi fran, thanks for your reply
I did mean tight/death grip
I've read here about possible power transfer from a tighter grip
as you indicate I would be surprised if it added up to very much
and it seems like there might be a significant tradeoff
as an example
try really tightening up and throwing a punch
when I do it, not only do I not get as much power behind the punch
but my accuracy is decreased

I think when we do the "death grip," our muscles are not allowed to lengthen
and get maximum purchase from our technique
so we actually get less power out of a given stroke
I think it's also less easy to involve the rest of the body when focusing so much
on tightening just the arm, etc.
further depriving us of power/energy
and as an added disadvantage, tip steer becomes more likely
ironically, from not being able to control the cue
I think that a relaxed grip (to the point of not hurling a cue like a javelin, of course ^_^)
and working with the cue/gravity, as opposed to trying to control things too much
is most conducive to shooting energetic and accurate pool

I do agree that there is a range of grip we can and do use
but I think it's often so subtle we're usually not very conscious of it
unless for example cueing off the rail, as you mention
where personally, I like to press down on the cue a bit to keep it in place

Quote:
Originally Posted by Patrick Johnson View Post
I don't think so.

No matter how tight your grip, at impact with the CB the cue is effectively disconnected from the grip because the hand's soft skin gives. This means every shot acts like you threw the cue at the CB with no grip at all.

So changing grip pressure from shot to shot is just another way your stroke can be pulled offline. I suggest finding one grip (if possible) that's the same no matter what the shot speed.

pj
chgo
hi pat and thanks for chiming in
agree eliminating variables is a great way to achieve consistency
of course everybody is different and there are different situations
but if somebody asked me
I would certainly advocate for consistency, if possible


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ritual ground, a gunfighter's high noon, a refuge,
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  (#32)
FranCrimi
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06-12-2020, 06:44 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Patrick Johnson View Post
I don't think so.

No matter how tight your grip, at impact with the CB the cue is effectively disconnected from the grip because the hand's soft skin gives. This means every shot acts like you threw the cue at the CB with no grip at all.

So changing grip pressure from shot to shot is just another way your stroke can be pulled offline. I suggest finding one grip (if possible) that's the same no matter what the shot speed.

pj
chgo
Unfortunately, I can't bring the person here who told me about varying grip pressure --- Ray Schuler. Ray was a smart guy and an engineer, so his background was scientific.

But despite Ray's absence, I think grip pressure and it's effect at impact is an interesting topic for discussion. I experimented with Gene Nagy a lot in throwing the cue and studying it's effects. We found that on certain shots, zero grip pressure at impact will give you certain things that you couldn't achieve with a grip on the cue at impact. I experimented with throwing the cue for the better part of a year. The cue vibrates more at impact with no grip than it does with a grip. I think there was a device out -- was it called 'the limb?' It was a rubber add-on to the cue to reduce cue vibration. Similar concept.

There are times when you don't want that extra vibration. It works both ways.

If you're interested in experimenting with throwing the cue, pick one that you don't care about. It beats up the cue. I have a photo of me throwing the cue but I don't know how to post it here.

I never competed solely by throwing the cue but a strong player named Nick Manino did. I threw it maybe a few times in competition for particular shots, but the reaction you get from the spectators is that you made a mistake and lost the cue unless you do it for every shot. Then it looks intentional.

So after all this writing, my point to you is that you don't really know what it's like to have no grip on the cue unless you actually experiment and release your grip completely and gauge the results.
  
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FranCrimi
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06-12-2020, 06:48 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by evergruven View Post
hi fran, thanks for your reply
I did mean tight/death grip
I've read here about possible power transfer from a tighter grip
as you indicate I would be surprised if it added up to very much
and it seems like there might be a significant tradeoff
as an example
try really tightening up and throwing a punch
when I do it, not only do I not get as much power behind the punch
but my accuracy is decreased

I think when we do the "death grip," our muscles are not allowed to lengthen
and get maximum purchase from our technique
so we actually get less power out of a given stroke
I think it's also less easy to involve the rest of the body when focusing so much
on tightening just the arm, etc.
further depriving us of power/energy
and as an added disadvantage, tip steer becomes more likely
ironically, from not being able to control the cue
I think that a relaxed grip (to the point of not hurling a cue like a javelin, of course ^_^)
and working with the cue/gravity, as opposed to trying to control things too much
is most conducive to shooting energetic and accurate pool

I do agree that there is a range of grip we can and do use
but I think it's often so subtle we're usually not very conscious of it
unless for example cueing off the rail, as you mention
where personally, I like to press down on the cue a bit to keep it in place


Overall I agree with you about the death grip. It's not something I would recommend. There is a wide range of grip pressures before the death grip that are most useful, though.
  
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Patrick Johnson
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06-12-2020, 06:57 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by FranCrimi View Post
Unfortunately, I can't bring the person here who told me about varying grip pressure --- Ray Schuler. Ray was a smart guy and an engineer, so his background was scientific.
I visited Ray a time or two at his shop here in the Chicago area - a pool world force for sure.

Quote:
But despite Ray's absence, I think grip pressure and it's effect at impact is an interesting topic for discussion. I experimented with Gene Nagy a lot in throwing the cue and studying it's effects. We found that on certain shots, zero grip pressure at impact will give you certain things that you couldn't achieve with a grip on the cue at impact. I experimented with throwing the cue for the better part of a year. The cue vibrates more at impact with no grip than it does with a grip. I think there was a device out -- was it called 'the limb?' It was a rubber add-on to the cue to reduce cue vibration. Similar concept.

There are times when you don't want that extra vibration. It works both ways.

If you're interested in experimenting with throwing the cue, pick one that you don't care about. It beats up the cue. I have a photo of me throwing the cue but I don't know how to post it here.

I never competed solely by throwing the cue but a strong player named Nick Manino did. I threw it maybe a few times in competition for particular shots, but the reaction you get from the spectators is that you made a mistake and lost the cue unless you do it for every shot. Then it looks intentional.

So after all this writing, my point to you is that you don't really know what it's like to have no grip on the cue unless you actually experiment and release your grip completely and gauge the results.
I've never thrown my cue - might just give it a try for science. Thanks for the suggestion.

pj <- would've liked to see you and Nick doing it
chgo
  
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06-12-2020, 01:29 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Patrick Johnson View Post
I visited Ray a time or two at his shop here in the Chicago area - a pool world force for sure.


I've never thrown my cue - might just give it a try for science. Thanks for the suggestion.

pj <-
Throwing a cue is eye opening. Played with it for about a year or so.

If your cue won't slip easily, you'll get similar results just laying the cue on one finger. No other contact. I used my index finger with the others pointing to the floor.

Only a few occasions did the cue land on the table, so it was more of a slip than a throw. 2-3 inch slip.

Last edited by 3kushn; 06-12-2020 at 01:31 PM.
  
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FranCrimi
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06-12-2020, 11:01 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Patrick Johnson View Post
I visited Ray a time or two at his shop here in the Chicago area - a pool world force for sure.


I've never thrown my cue - might just give it a try for science. Thanks for the suggestion.

pj <- would've liked to see you and Nick doing it
chgo
https://forums.azbilliards.com/attac...1&d=1592027841

Hey, I did it! Notice I was using a house cue. The butt was in mid air and just about to hit the rail.
  
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Patrick Johnson
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06-13-2020, 02:13 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by FranCrimi View Post
https://forums.azbilliards.com/attac...1&d=1592027841

Hey, I did it! Notice I was using a house cue. The butt was in mid air and just about to hit the rail.
That link isnít working for me...?

pj
chgo
  
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FranCrimi
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06-13-2020, 11:09 AM

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Originally Posted by Patrick Johnson View Post
That link isnít working for me...?

pj
chgo
OK. I guess only I can see it. Oh well. I tried.
  
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Patrick Johnson
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06-13-2020, 12:01 PM

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Originally Posted by FranCrimi View Post
OK. I guess only I can see it. Oh well. I tried.
Dammit - thanks anyway.

pj
chgo
  
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