FargoRate app review

dukblowz

New member
I appreciate the app for what it is attempting to do, however I agree with all the posts citing the lack of updates. As a software engineer it is maddening to think of all the possibilities of the app and not see much progress, hiring by any chance?

List of additional features (just a few of many) I would like to see incorporated:

-Better integration with the LMS, I am on the site all the time looking at my league reports page, which does a good job of compiling our session by session stats, all of these reports need to be available in the app.

-Better week by week progress and the ability to see extensive match history plus the trending reports.

-Integration with the League Calculator! Every night at league we have to sit there while the one guy who can work the web page on his phone figures out every team's match handicap on the spot. If the app would show these calculations for every week at the touch of a finger would be great.

-Ability to run tournaments via the app, sending table and time assignments easily and have brackets view able on the phone.

-Build out the Events page, what is this for? How can we hook our local league/tournament schedule to this app?

-Sorting abilities for Favorites screen as well, to be able to list by league, name, rating, history etc.
 

Samiel

Sea Player
Silver Member
Seeing other players' match histories would be at the top of my list.

Unfortunately for me, I've sent in two "corrections" requests to have some matches removed from my history and I've not seen any response. There's another person with a similar name to mine and their match history is counted in mine, which probably makes for a slightly skewed FargoRate for me.

Maybe they saw this thread, but the invalid data for me has been removed from my history! It bumped me up about 10 points, lol.

Something else I'd like to see next to your rating is in what percentage of players you rank. Something like 800 -> Top 0.5%
 

skip100

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Maybe they saw this thread, but the invalid data for me has been removed from my history! It bumped me up about 10 points, lol.

Something else I'd like to see next to your rating is in what percentage of players you rank. Something like 800 -> Top 0.5%
That's a nice idea - percentile in your country, state, city.
 

BRussell

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
The paid version is available for free to anyone that plays in a BCA league. So, the paid version doesn't really have anything the free version isn't able to do.

But you can also download a free version even if you aren't a league member, and that is limited compared to the paid/league version.
 

RabbiHippie

"Look! A real hippie!"
Silver Member
I just keep hearing Mark Cuban's voice from Shark Tank saying how difficult and expensive a good app is.
I can attest that Mark Cuban knows what he's talking about.

I have personally coded iPhone and iPad apps. Few people--especially otherwise savvy business folks--realize how much work is involved in building even a simple app.

Two co-workers and I together spent nearly 5,000 hours over the course of a year to develop an iPad app that looked no more complex (to a layman) than the FargoRate app. Most of the work involved goes into things that the user never sees. The shiny parts of an app--that is, the parts that a user actually interacts with--are just the tip of the iceberg. It wouldn't surprise me to learn that Steve and Mike have invested 10,000+ hours in "plumbing" alone for the FargoRate model, all of which is basically invisible to someone trying to use the app or website to check Fargo scores.

Basically, think six-figures minimum for any kind of meaningful app. I met the guys responsible for Wal-Mart's app and their initial budget was in the millions.

(And to think I was once approached by a bank[!] that believed $1,000 was a reasonable budget for a complete revamping of their app!)
 
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RabbiHippie

"Look! A real hippie!"
Silver Member
Drill-Down in CueTracker for Snooker

Now that I'm done ranting about how much work goes into building apps, I'll register my thoughts on how the FargoRate app could be improved.

I'll come back later and share some ideas in detail, just in case Mike Page or Steve Ernst is listening in for suggestions on future enhancements.

But in the meantime, I'll point everybody to the CueTracker website that Ron Florax built for snooker. Explore some of the different options under the Statistics menu.The interface is a bit cumbersome, but once you get the hang of it, you can drill-down to see details in a powerful way. I'd like to see FargoRate take inspiration from CueTracker's drill-down capability.

EXAMPLE

Click on Statistics --> Centuries --> Players Highest Break --> Country, then select "United States" under the column labelled "Range."

(The "Scope" and "Range" headings probably cause the most confusion for visitors to the site.)

You should see a screen like the one below showing Jim Rempe as the only American pool player to make a century break on the UK pro snooker circuit. (His high run was 105.) I got interesting results when I tried Canada, Germany, and the Philippines, too. I've always wondered who the best "multi-discipline" players are and this function listed several pool players who are also strong at snooker. Now, which ones play 3-cushion?

CueTracker.png
 
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ShortBusRuss

Short Bus Russ - C Player
Silver Member
Wow, tough question. Personally, I love Fargo, but it has one seriously glaring weakness and that is the overweighting of matches played more than a year ago.

In my opinion, for Fargo to advance to the next level, it will have to assign a greater weight to results in the past year of play than results older than a year. Similarly, Fargo shouldn't count matches in the distant past at all, because such results are not an indicator of current playing speed.

Fargo, as currently computed, does not penalize those who do not participate in competition, making pool the only sport I know of which has this problem. The result is that players who rarely or never compete maintain their ratings from the past, when in far too many cases their skills have diminished.

sjm,

The Fargorate system is almost identical to the USCF (U.S. Chess Federation) rating system. And that system calculates your rating off of a combination of your current score, and your most recent tournament.

I do have an issue with the idea that a Fargorate can "float" a couple of points here and there based on what the previously played opponents have accomplished recently. There's no need for that. Calculate the Fargorate for each player on a tournament-by-tournament basis, and then leave it the hell alone. There's no need to "penalize" a player for not playing.

Realistically, ratings stay pretty static, and floating the rating the way Fargorate does is not gonna make much of a difference. If I haven't played a Fargorate event in 2 years.... If the calculation was done on a tourney-by-tourney basis, what effect does my rating have on the rest of the population? None. But by continuously recalculating against the entire Fargorate membership... This injects a lot of uncertainty into the ratings. Fargorate should just copy USCF/FIDE's algorithm's carte blanche. But, I think that Mike is seeing Fargorate mainly as a revenue stream for himself and the BCA, and not as the governing tool that makes measurement possible, and absolutely critical to the sport's growth.

What I mean by that, is a USCF rating is the be-all, end-all of chess in America. FIDE, overseas. Which means, that to call yourself a serious chess player, you MUST have either a USCF or FIDE rating.

I personally think that is the route Fargorate should have went, from the beginning. Just copy the whole USCF system, top to bottom. Work on providing tools to tournament directors to make the process invisible to the tournament director. Work on ingesting every single tournament table you can, to get EVERYBODY a preliminary rating, to give them what the USCF gives chess players.. An ego kick that player "A" is better than you..... So you BETTER start practicing and playing tournaments to get that rating up. And the USCF provides a calculator tool that you can input the match scores and pre-tournament rating of those you played, and it will tell you what your new rating should be! Fargorate has no such thing.

THAT is what Fargorate is missing. There's zero incentive to raise one's Fargorate, and every incentive to sandbag it. Even with the BCA adopting it... Still comes down to the same thing.... The BCA and Fargorate need to find a way to reward the most improved Fargorate, acknowledgement in a BCA/Fargorate online periodical, etc.

Fargorate as it stands now is little more than an extra requirement to play a league. That is not a recipe for growth. I looked at the league management site/software/LMS whatsit that Fargorate has put out, and it made me immediately shy away from trying to get Fargorate started over here in Germany. For one thing, Germany already has better League management Software than any league system in America. So, the only way to get Germany onboard is to make it SO easy for a motivated tournament director to get started, with the smallest possible tournaments, that players will gladly fork over the $20.00 a year or whatever. When I looked at that site, it was just all so confusing, and not polished at all. I simply don't think Fargorate as a product is polished enough at the moment, and not likely to become so. There's no easy avenue for a person to say, "Hey, I think I wanna run a Fargorate tournament tonight, but I've never run one. How would I do that?", and then, get an easy answer.

When I really got the pool bug back in the mid-90's I played in a room that recorded the top three finishers of the weekly 9 ball event on the wall. Had some of the best players in WA state every week. The motivation to get your name up on that wall controlled all my waking moments.

Where is the equivalent for Fargorate? USA top 100 lists? Hmmmpfh. Sure, If you wanna compare yourself to people who will generally beat you 9-0, 9-1, 9-2 in major events. And sure.. There are prolly similar list within that Fargorate LMS site.........IF you already have an active membership. But where is the well-polished site where any potential pool player in the world can go and see the ratings for all their local players, sorted by state? If it exists, it exists behind that LMS site membership wall, which closes off anyone without a current membership.

Just my humble opinion, but Fargorate is simply not ready for prime time yet. It could be so much more than it is, and could definitely be used to grow the sport, but is being mismanaged.
 
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RabbiHippie

"Look! A real hippie!"
Silver Member
Fargorate as it stands now is little more than an extra requirement to play a league. That is not a recipe for growth. I looked at the league management site/software/LMS whatsit that Fargorate has put out, and it made me immediately shy away from trying to get Fargorate started over here in Germany. For one thing, Germany already has better League management Software than any league system in America. So, the only way to get Germany onboard is to make it SO easy for a motivated tournament director to get started, with the smallest possible tournaments, that players will gladly fork over the $20.00 a year or whatever.

Russ, could you provide links to some of the LMS vendors used in Europe?

I've wondered what the market for League Management software (LMS) is like in Europe.

Ron Florax is a Dutch programmer living in Ireland who has done a fantastic job with the CueTracker website. It seems like a natural next step for CueTracker would be an LMS aimed at the UK's amateur circuit of local snooker clubs and academies.

Right now, CueTracker's database is divided into two classes: Professional and Non-Professional. However, what CueTracker calls "Non-Professional" is more like the Open Division of an American pool tournament where the majority of players are either outright pros or regional "A" players (shortstops :wink2:) capable of occassionally playing at near-professional levels.

CueTracker is currently missing the true amateurs who play every week for their local snooker club. I'd guess these club matches are roughly equivalent to the APA, BCA, TAP, etc. leagues in the U.S.

One thing I like about FargoRate is that it consists of just one population representing all pool players from top pros down to the rankest amateurs. This allows me to compare myself with pros like SVB and Alex the Lion and get some idea of where I stand in relation to them. It also helps me form more realistic goals for how much improvement I can expect.

I've had a few opportunities to donate to needy players rated in the 600's and 700's. It's been my experience that Fargo is fairly accurate at predicting the eventual outcome. Hundred point differences really do seem to correspond (roughly) to a 2:1 disadvantage. Even if the predictions are off by a bit, it's still a powerful tool for handicapping like nothing we had before. It's certainly better than a WAG at a fair handicap. You don't have to take FargoRate as gospel, but do trear it as another piece of information to be factored-in with to your own judgment.

(I'm aware there are lots of folks that believe FargoRate has no relevance whatsoever and are prepared to argue the point to the death. That's okay; I'm not trying to change anyone's mind.)

Anyway, my point is that CueTracker would have a headstart if they decided to enter the LMS market with a product aimed at amateur snooker clubs. Such a move would also allow them to combine the true amateurs from the LMS with the pros and semi-pros already in their database into a single population for all snooker players. (This is pretty much the same method used to grow FargoRate by importing games from into their LMS.)

I'd expect that club players in the UK would also enjoy seeing how they stack up against pros like Ronnie O'Sullivan or Judd Trump. Such a feature might even be of greater benefit to snooker than pool due to the severity of pro snooker's qualification process. Every year there are extraordinary "amateurs" who can't get past the hurdle of Q School for their chance to play on the pro tour. In many cases, these are players who've got multiple 147s under their belts but are never really given a fair shot at making the pro tour due to ingrained advantages built into the system which favor current pros who've already "made it" over promising up-and-comers who might be more deserving of pro status than the crop of players stuck in the bottom tier of the tour.
 
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skip100

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
One big issue with a snooker rating system would be game length. That said, I'm looking at this site - http://www.leaguesnooker.co.uk/ - and anyone with access to the internal data could easily come up with a Bradley-Terry/Elo type system to rate the players because the data goes back so far. Fargo uses Bradley-Terry, chess uses Elo, to be honest it doesn't really matter either way in terms of predictive power.

The big challenge - and I would argue market need - that FargoRate has done a fantastic job meeting is going through the grunt work of setting up a unified player database.

The major projects from here surround 1) turning the ratings into a sustainable and growing business, 2) the nitty-gritty of technology/app development, and 3) dealing with the "original sin" of an arbitrary, human-chosen starter rating that hangs around for 200 games. That's 2 years of weekly league play.

They understand the importance of the app, so much so that users see messaging about how the desktop version is going to be deprecated. Unfortunately we're not seeing the results of that focus yet.
 
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