5 and 2 and out!!!

furryboffin

furryboffin

Registered
World 14.1 Championships: 5 & 2 & out!!!

Hey Guys, I haven't posted anything about this until now because I have just been far too devastated for words!!! A couple of days have passed now since I got knocked out of the World 14.1 champs on 5 wins and 2 losses and I guess I'm a bit more able to be philosophical about the whole experience. Does anyone know if this has happened before? I can't help feeling robbed. I have a better ball record than quite a few of the players that qualified and amongst others I beat Mike Sigel with the help of a 74 ball run.

That said I'd like to say that it's been a great tournament and a really great experience. This is my first time playing here but for sure not my last if Dragon Promotions will have me back next year.

I'd like to thank all the organizers for a great event and wish the best of luck to all those left in.

Jonni Fulcher
 
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You played great and should be very proud of yourself! The situation in group brackets did happen last year as well and some were on the short end of it. Wins and losses are irrelavent (thats the way I see it anyhow), ball count within the bracket is the determination of advancing. There were 5 players in your bracket that were 5 and 2, so each had 500 for their 5 wins. Thorsten had 97 combined with his 2 losses and you had 86 combined with your 2 losses, the other 3 players were above yours and thorsten's ball count in their 2 losses. Thorsten edged you out by 11 balls for the final spot in your bracket, ouch!

Note that Jasmin got through in her bracket with a record of 3 and 4, where Alan Rolon in her bracket was 4 and 3 and did not advance. But Jasmin had a higher ball count for all 7 games.

We hope to see you there again next year, your a great player!

Kev
 
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I didn't know furryboffin was you Jonni. I enjoyed watching you play, and I think everyone there felt you got robbed. I just don't get it. You played so much better than other players who got through. It's a blaring example of the flaws in the scoring system.
I truly felt for you. It's the biggest travesty in this entire event.
 
The group pairing system is seriously flawed, I couldn't believe it when they came up with this back when they started it.
 
thanks!

bluepepper said:
I didn't know furryboffin was you Jonni. I enjoyed watching you play, and I think everyone there felt you got robbed. I just don't get it. You played so much better than other players who got through. It's a blaring example of the flaws in the scoring system.
I truly felt for you. It's the biggest travesty in this entire event.
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Thanks Jeff, That's very kind of you to say. We've been talking about the system all week and if it would be possible to make it better. The good thing about this system is that everyone gets to play at least 7 matches. Which is a major thing considering the distance we come to play. In principle you can have a bad match to start with when you are cold and out of stroke, and still go through. At least this is what I thought, and it's what happened to me. coming in cold after a long trip and not knowing the tables or the balls it was a real struggle in my first match, which I lost to Charlie (he played solidly so no complaints).

After beating Mike Sigel I really thought I had to go through. I must admit I never thought in a million years that Chavez would beat Thorsten, but it just goes to show what a classy player he is. This being his first ever 14.1 tournament!!!! Hats off to Ignacio for a fantastic performance, he thoroughly deserved to go through. It's always painful though when you see two guys, who you just beat, advance to the next round when you have to stay out and watch. Out of all my bad beats, this really is the king!!! :(
 
I just checked, and if the final 32 were based on total points, you would have beaten 9 of the 32 that got through.

After your disheartening experience, total points makes more sense to me than wins to decide who goes through.

Maybe it should be total points minus the total points of opponents.

It's not like the players aren't going to want to win their matches anyway, even if they know they aren't playing for the win, so points seems to be the fairest as long as the groups are divided up fairly.
 
selftaut said:
Note that Jasmin got through in her bracket with a record of 3 and 4, where Alan Rolon in her bracket was 4 and 3 and did not advance. But Jasmin had a higher ball count for all 7 games.

Kev
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Just a correction - wins are the first thing to break ties. After wins, it comes down to balls pocketed.

Alan Rolon was not 4-3, he was 3-4. Dragon's website had quite a few errors in the scores reported.

Jasmine's main competition was not Alan, actually - it was Cal Coker. He needed 66 against Archer to beat out Jasmine. He got to 58. Every ball counts!

I agree, the format is a tad flawed, but not sure how they'll be able to fix it without removing the round-robin aspect.

- Steve
 
IMO the best format is 100% seeded double knockout all the way, like US Open. But seeding should be fair, based upon world ranking for a world event.
 
Oh, and to be honest, I am trying to figure out how they did the seeding for the top 32 and I am coming up empty.

http://www.dragonpromotions.com/news/2008141press6.html

It appears to not be based on won-loss record (look at CW, seed #8, between 7 and 9) nor on balls pocketed (many anomalies, look at Dave Daya for one) nor on ball differential (Engert's ball differential of 230 is higher than mine, for instance). Anyone have any ideas?

- Steve
 
furryboffin said:
btw... which Jeff are you?
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Hmmm, I guess I'm this one. I didn't introduce myself when I was there, and I won't be going back this week. I passed the 3 of you(you, another fellow, and the video camera gal) in the lobby very late on Wednesday on my way to the garage. Tall guy with a goatee.
 
Steve, what do you think about total points or total points minus opponent points not only breaking ties, but determining who goes on to the elimination rounds?
 
Not sure what you mean Jeff... wouldn't breaking ties only be done to determine who goes to the elimination rounds?
 
I'm suggesting that assuming fair round robin groupings, compare players' points not only with those in their own groups but with those of all players in the field. The 32 with the highest total points, or maybe better, the highest point spread, go on to the elimination rounds. In essence wins mean nothing.
 
Hmmm, something about that just feels off to me. At first glance, I would say that a potential problem with it is that it would make it very difficult to see where you are in relation to a spot (with, say, 1 or 2 matches left in the round robin stage). There are so many permutations on what could happen in the other 7 flights that the fan excitement of sweating a match would be all but lost.

I think the groupings just need to be made a little more fair. I was in probably the weakest group, so it worked out for me, but selfishness aside they probably could have made things a little more equitable.

- Steve

P.S. Btw Jeff, it was great meeting you! Thanks for your support throughout the week, really means a lot to me.
 
I like the round robin and I think it's fair. I think the ties should be switched to what you held your opponents to instead of what they held you to. If someone runs out on you it's not really your fault and you could be eliminated because of that the way it is now.

I can't seem to find the scores from the round robin to see if it changes things though. Anyone have them and can do the math?
 
Yeah, I guess it would be sort of strange not paying attention to wins. I also just realized that if two friends were playing the 7th match, and one guy is definitely in, it might encourage throwing bones. But that could also happen with the current format.

Maybe a weighted system where points matter "X" amount and wins matter "Y" amount. I think point spread mattering at least a little bit, not just for breaking ties, would help to hedge any grouping imbalances.

It was great meeting you too. And I'll never forget that first rack of yours against Coker. What an exciting way to start a match. I hope we get a chance to play some time. I'm going to practice hard this year and try to qualify for next year if the event is still running.
 
Chris_Lynch said:
I like the round robin and I think it's fair. I think the ties should be switched to what you held your opponents to instead of what they held you to.
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I didn't know that this was a determining factor in the tie breaking. It makes sense that for those who are tied, the match between them should be looked at.
Nice meeting you Chris.
 
Steve Lipsky said:
Just a correction - wins are the first thing to break ties. After wins, it comes down to balls pocketed.

Alan Rolon was not 4-3, he was 3-4. Dragon's website had quite a few errors in the scores reported.

Jasmine's main competition was not Alan, actually - it was Cal Coker. He needed 66 against Archer to beat out Jasmine. He got to 58. Every ball counts!

I agree, the format is a tad flawed, but not sure how they'll be able to fix it without removing the round-robin aspect.

- Steve
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ahaaa, thanks for the correction Steve, I thought it was that way but I thought they changed it because of the way the scores read that are posted.

Congrats on qualifying then playing tough throughout!

My thoughts on fixing the current format is this, triple elimination with random draw, nobody can ***** about a random draw and triple elim gives plenty of chances for the best players come to the top. 125 points until 16 remain then 150 points. One final to 200. JMHO

Kev
 
bluepepper said:
And I'll never forget that first rack of yours against Coker. What an exciting way to start a match. I hope we get a chance to play some time. I'm going to practice hard this year and try to qualify for next year if the event is still running.
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I think you're giving too much credit for that shot Jeff! It was a total hanger:

CueTable Help



I just had to hit from the 5 to throw the 6 a little to the right. The only semi-difficult thing was to make a good hit off the rail (it was actually slightly tougher to hit the first ball than it looks on the wei). But still, a shot that most people would see and make.

I agree though - it was a fun way to start (though probably not for Coker) :).

- Steve
 
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