Aiming Systems

[Zemanova]

Someone told me there were different aiming systems other than the conventional ghost ball technique. I heard things about imagining a spot on the object ball, using the lights, or dividing the ball into 1/8,1/4,1/2, etc.

Aiming with english seems to also have various theories as well.
I have heard of parallel english and pivot english. I think there are a few more.

Any insights???

 

[Bluewolf]

Cross dominant aiming

This is what i want to know about. I use the line theory. Line from pocket thru ob. Line from cb thru ob, then line that up and lock on ob but I am cross dominant. Right handed left eyed so would like to know if anyone else sights with their left while shooting with their right. The method of cue under chin does not work.

I know I could switch hands to left hand and am considering that also, but dont want to switch right now because we are in the middle of the playoffs.

Laura

 

[Ken in CT]

Laura,

Unless there is something else involved with that system you describe, it is fatally flawed. I assume the line from the pocket through the OB bisects the ball. If you are also bisecting the CB that system will work only for straight in shots.

Lining up the cue with the eye closest to the center line of the body is unusually common among top players. Whether or not these players are "cross dominant" is something that I don't know and I think it is irrelevant.

Buddy Hall shoots right handed and aims with his left eye. He is known as the "Rifleman" yet his technique is in no way similar to how one would shoot a rifle. I believe he aims with his right eye when shooting a rifle.

I don't know where you got the idea that you should aim with your outside eye. The number of players who aim with the inside eye is much higher than would be predicted merely by the frequency of "cross eye dominance". It suggests that there might be an advantage to using the inside eye that results in far more top players doing it than one would expect.
Ken

 

[Bluewolf]

Laura,

Unless there is something else involved with that system you describe, it is fatally flawed. I assume the line from the pocket through the OB bisects the ball. If you are also bisecting the CB that system will work only for straight in shots.

I see those lines but do not hit the ob there. That is confusing. The point of aim per koehler in 'the science of pocket billiards' is different from the point of contact. So when I shoot it is seeing the point where the line comes through the ob and placing the cb on that line so that it strikes the ob at the appropriate place along that line so that the ball will pot. This is where what is called 'ghost ball' comes in. Then sometimes there is engllish used too,depending on the shot. So I see the line to give me a guide to where I need to place the cb but an element of feel and just used to that particular shot i think also from hitting it a bunch of times. That is why I do better with some shots than others. The more times I have hit that shot into the pocket, the more likely it pots, ie high percentage vs low percentage shot.

[/QUOTE]
Buddy Hall shoots right handed and aims with his left eye. He is known as the "Rifleman" yet his technique is in no way similar to how one would shoot a rifle. I believe he aims with his right eye when shooting a rifle.[/QUOTE]

Thanks. I figured this was difficult but knowing someone else did this successfully helps.

[/QUOTE]I don't know where you got the idea that you should aim with your outside eye. The number of players who aim with the inside eye is much higher than would be predicted merely by the frequency of "cross eye dominance". It suggests that there might be an advantage to using the inside eye that results in far more top players doing it than one would expect.
Ken [/QUOTE]

Yep. I think being cross dominant may have slowed me down a bit. It would be easier if I was right both or can switch to all left.

Laura

 

[Bluewolf]

ken,

Everytime one of these technical questions comes up, I end up wishing I had kept my mouth shut. I end up doing what I am thinking of doing right now and that is running to the table, lining up the balls, and trying to see what it is that I actually do. I think Larry was right on another topic when he said 'it is a damn feel thing'.

Laura

 

[pro-player]

There is a major misconception about all aiming systems. They are meant to be used as a crutch to help newer players learn where to aim on the OB, developing feel. They can, however, hurt a player more than they can help one. No top player uses an aiming system, they use feel. Years of experience do the aiming for them. Here is the best aiming system: LEARN TO SHOOT STRAIGHT. Shooting a straight on shot is the same as shooting a cut shot. Shoot straight at where you are aiming to, and if you are a somewhat decent player, the ball will drop.

This is what aiming systems do to players: FILL THEIR HEADS WITH CRAP THEY DONT NEED.

 

[Ken in CT]

Laura,
You seem to have missed the point I was trying to explain. There seems to be a high percentage of very good players who shoot like you do. The frequency with which they exist is far greater than would be predicted from the frequency of "cross eye" dominance in the population.

I don't understand why you are so determined to switch from a method that seems to convey an advantage to the players that use that method. I was also considering switching in some manner until I observed the high percentage of top level players using that method.

 

[Rickw]

I tend to agree with pro-player. There are times, though, when you will see even the top pros look at the line from the ob to the pocket on tough shots. Outside of that, they shoot by feel and experience.

 

[14.1]

I'm a complete novice in pool, so please don't flame me, but I have had varying degrees of success in alot of differant sports and it seems to me that only pool and golf seem to entice their partime participants with quick fix "systems" or "methods". No basketball player ever learned an aiming system for making 3ft-15ft bank shots, they just shot a million of them and learned how to feel it. No quaterback learned a system for timing where to throw a ball so that a receiver 60 yards down the field would run under it perfectly, they just did it alot and trusted themselves to do it right. You can call it eye-hand coordination, or left or right brain or whatever, but IMHO I think golfers and pool players need to think more in practice and think less in competition. Please don't drag me into a silly arguement about this sport vs. that sport. My point is alot of sports require precison and consistency, and we can learn from the way they are taught.

 

[Bluewolf]

Laura,
You seem to have missed the point I was trying to explain. There seems to be a high percentage of very good players who shoot like you do. The frequency with which they exist is far greater than would be predicted from the frequency of "cross eye" dominance in the population.

I don't understand why you are so determined to switch from a method that seems to convey an advantage to the players that use that method. I was also considering switching in some manner until I observed the high percentage of top level players using that method.

Ken,

Maybe I did not understand what you were trying to say. Having played a year only, I am liable to get lots of stuff mixed up.

I just assumed my cross dominance was a bad thing. I never thought it might be a good thing. One coach told me, I just need to learn to sight a little better with my left eye since i was shooting right handed. Another coach said to switch hands, since I am left eyed to shoot left handed. I can shoot sort of okay with my left hand too, just not as well. I tried putting the cue under my chin when using my right and really thought I was doing that until the first coach pointed out that my left eye was looking down the shaft. When I switch to left hand for hard shots, the cue is under my left eye. So to avoid any more what Larry calls 'paralysis by analysis', I have just been trying to use my left eye sighting better. I just did not want to switch right now to my left hand because we are in league finals thursday night.

As far as aiming, I think that I am looking at the point of aim on the object ball, and trying to hit it with the cb based more on the ghost ball. I was messing up on this shot by not doing the ghost ball right until I figured out what I was doing wrong.

This is from the wei table.


START(
%A^1W6%BL7P8%CJ5O4%DL7N1%EM7P1%FK6P1%GK6N8%HM7N8%IL7O4%JK6M5
%KJ5P7%LJ5N2%MK6Q4%NJ5R0%OJ5M0%Pi0Y0%WD3[3%X]4W8%]_9W8%^h5Y2
)END

http://endeavor.med.nyu.edu/~wei/pool/pooltable2.html

Laura

ps Ken, I am sorry if I still dont get what you were trying to say. There is still a lot that I do not understand.

 

[Zemanova]

Laura, I have read the great Mike Segal is left handed and right eye dominant and he obviously overcame this cross dominance issue. Generally, the textbook stance is positioning your feet 45 degrees to the line of the cue. For cross dominance, one good player told me to make your stance longer meaning positioning your feet so you're standing in more of a straighter line to the cue. This allows your head/dominant eye to be more over the cue. The shifting of the feet may in turn require adjustments in the upper body so you will have to experiment.

I agree with Pro-Player ultimately playing by feel is how this game should be played and systems are often used as a crutch and not as a guide especially among beginners. However, there are times when the feel isn't there during a tournament, and due to nerves, you are faced with a shot that seems familiar, but very un-familiar at the same time and you wish there was a line of a teleprompter emerging on the pool table or your god's hand reaching down saying "Dude/dudette, hit it here". Regardless, knowing some aiming system might help GUIDE you thru that tough spot.

Play by feel answer is generally the answer I get, but I know there are theories on different aiming systems, especially aiming with english. Maybe we could discuss different systems, its application, and its benefits or shortcomings.

 

[Walt in VA]

No basketball player ever learned an aiming system for making 3ft-15ft bank shots, they just shot a million of them and learned how to feel it. No quaterback learned a system for timing where to throw a ball so that a receiver 60 yards down the field would run under it perfectly, they just did it alot and trusted themselves to do it right.

14.1 - Far from flaming you, I think you have put your finger on it precisely. Once a player has a good concept of basics (stance, grip, stroke), they need to shoot the same simple shot over and over until they develop a feel for it, then move on to a slightly more difficult shot and do the same thing.

As pro-player said earlier, aiming systems are a useful crutch for teaching newcomers roughly where to hit the OB, but once they have that concept, the only way to really learn to shoot is to pocket balls - about a million of them.

Our brains are wonderful computers, and every time we make or miss a shot, our brain automatically processes the feedback about the results and helps us to correct for the next one. There is just no substitute for table time, IMHO -

Walt in VA

 

[Joseph Cues]

Watch the balls collide. You'll learn a ton by doing this all the time after you stroke the cb.
Of course. lining up your body, making you bridge at the right place and your elbow, grip and the web of your bridge and shooting hand make it easier.

 

[Ruby]

Laura, you can use the line system you were talking about this way. Imagine a line going through the pocket and the OB and remember the point on the OB (this is the contact point). Imagine another point on the OB that goes straight through the OB and CB. Double the distance between these two points and that new point is the aiming point. You might find a drawing somewhere...it's hard to explain in words. This system eliminates having to guess where the cue ball will hit the contact point.

I don't use this system anymore because it got too annoying for me. I used it when I just started. In the beginning it was a good aiming system, but it just requires so much thinking. IT also doesn't work on every shot.

Right now, since I have a problem maintaining an image of the ghost ball when I get down to shoot, I focus on where I think is the center of the ghost ball and stroke the cue ball straight into that point. I dont' know why I started doing this but it seems to work for me.

 

[bruin70]

i suck....i thought i'd get that out of the way first.

i can't aim to a point, so i do all my aiming by feel of the angle. well, this has drawbacks too because the angle can be an illusion created by how the cb/ob/pocket lay on the table. ie,,,a semi tough cut to a pocket becomes more difficult if you change the lay of the cb/ob until it becomes a hidden pocket shot.

so because my perception of a shot deals with perception of the angle, i have to create scenarios in my mind on different shots to overcome the misleading illusion. on a hidden pocket shot, for instance, i either aim short(because i tend to overcut such shots), or mentally try to eliminate the rail that runs from me to the pocket. stuff like that.

aiming to a point never works for me because,,,i never see the contact properly all the time and i almost always overcut anyway.

i've asked a few players/pros, and the overwhelming sense i get is they just have a feel for the shot. this is how it should be, imo. have them play on a dark table and they will still shoot better than me......."a sense of where you are"-bill bradley

 

[locki]

i use the ob technique most of the time, on combination shots, i use the 1/2 size of the ball technique...

 

[Sputnik]

The one factor in rating a player which is easily taken for granted is vision. Efren says that he really feels that his is deteriorating (I had suggested to him to consider laser correction). Cross dominance is a handicap. Earl has a cross-dominant stance, and has adjusted to it well.

I, myself, am cross-dominant. Some time ago, I tried putting my dominant eye over the cue and found out that things became easier as far as aiming was concerned. The problem was that it gave me huge migrains.

My suggestion to cross-dominant players who choose to play (normally) with the cue stick right down the center of the chin is to always respect the shot by really looking at the specific aiming spot at the object ball. Once in a while, the dominant eye "catches" the calculation in the computer box with an estimated vector in-vector out aim and things turn up really messy. This, to me, is a handicap because it is quite an added load to one's concentration; and it is quite devastating to miss relatively easy shots.

In switching dominant hands, I, too am ambidextrous, but I will not exchange clearer vision with stroke control.

 

[instroke]

There is a major misconception about all aiming systems. They are meant to be used as a crutch to help newer players learn where to aim on the OB, developing feel. They can, however, hurt a player more than they can help one. No top player uses an aiming system, they use feel. Years of experience do the aiming for them. Here is the best aiming system: LEARN TO SHOOT STRAIGHT. Shooting a straight on shot is the same as shooting a cut shot. Shoot straight at where you are aiming to, and if you are a somewhat decent player, the ball will drop.

This is what aiming systems do to players: FILL THEIR HEADS WITH CRAP THEY DONT NEED.

I disagree with you Pro-Player. I know lot's of pros and some of them do in fact use various aiming systems. One of them gave me some instruction and insight that pushed my game up at least three balls. Don't bother asking me to explain it on the board because I can't. Everyone I show it to though agrees that it works. But what works for me is not the point.

The point is that pool is a game of constraints - the balls are of one size - the table is twice as wide as long and the pockets are unmoving. Thus it follows that certain principles (systems) can be applied that will work when followed. I do agree that the application comes down to the "feel" of the shot and knowing when to pull the trigger.

I have been on both sides - as a feel player who practiced a straight stroke constantly. I could do the stroke into a beer bottle thing with ease, I could send the cueball over the spots and between balls over and over. But I couldn't get out consistently and I kept missing shots that I felt like I was perfect on. Until I was shown a kind of complicated system that works and then later a vastly simplified one that works better for me. Now my straight stroke coupled with "proper" aiming makes me a better player. Now when I miss it's not because I didn't line up right.

Systems have their place and most of them work. Some pros use them to varying degrees. They can be wrongly used as a crutch but more often they are used as a tool to develop proper aiming habits.

If any of you want to see what I learned in person just email me and we'll figure something out.

John

 

[instroke]

14.1 - Far from flaming you, I think you have put your finger on it precisely. Once a player has a good concept of basics (stance, grip, stroke), they need to shoot the same simple shot over and over until they develop a feel for it, then move on to a slightly more difficult shot and do the same thing.

As pro-player said earlier, aiming systems are a useful crutch for teaching newcomers roughly where to hit the OB, but once they have that concept, the only way to really learn to shoot is to pocket balls - about a million of them.

Our brains are wonderful computers, and every time we make or miss a shot, our brain automatically processes the feedback about the results and helps us to correct for the next one. There is just no substitute for table time, IMHO -

Walt in VA

I sort of agree with you Walt in that our brains are computers. Whether they are wonderful or not is debateable. It has been proven over and over that people have vastly different retention abilities. I have shot two million balls and have never been as consistent in the first 18 years of playing as I have been in the last two years. Why? Because I was shown a system that allowed my internal computer to start with good data - as in a simple set of instructions - to achieve good output - pocketing balls without worrying about a contact point on the object ball. I shot two million balls in the first 18 years but never made as many as in the last two.

John - getting better each day.

 

[Bluewolf]

aH SO GRASSHOPPER, ONCE MORE YOU GO TO WELL AND DRAW UP PARALYSIS BY ANALYSIS, YO NO LISTEN TO FAST DUDE WHO SAY, GO WITH WHAT YOU KNOW, DO WHAT IS NATURAL, WHAT FLOWS, WHAT YOUR SUBCONSCIOUS RIGHT BRAIN LINES UP FOR YOU, JUST FEEL IT, FLOW WITH IT, FAST AND LOOSE, IT CAN BE THAT SIMPLE.

It is funny. I really do not like aiming systems, I use them as a crutch I guess and it is not fun. It is funner to shoot, but there I was, when the topic came up, trying to figure out what it is that I do. I know I look at the line from the pocket that bisects the ob.

I put this shot on the wei I was having trouble with. I used to make that shot because my cpu had figured it out and was mad it had become hard again, like I had gotten rusty on it.

So, before I remember what my cpu knew, my husband and I were doing this 'paralysis by analysis' thing yesterday afternoon. It is the long shot which if you back up to my previous post is on the wei.

me ' I am missing it because it has a lot of contact induced throw and should hit harder to take out the throw'
him' either use outside eng or compensate, but hit lag speed'
me'no i should hit med hard to take out the throw because too much outside eng will err by an overcut'

then he said 'our sl5s miss this 25% of the time,it is not that easy'

well that did it,boy was I pissed that I was missing it 50% of the time.

i went back to the table, and then that 'ahhah' moment when i remembered what my cpu already knew. i now know i can make this shot 75%.it was indeed 'a damn feel thing',as the Fast man says.

Laura