APA Acceptable time between shots

M

maxeypad2007

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
After the last couple of weeks of APA I think the name should be changed from 8-ball to the crying game. He was in the chair for quite some time, which is the way I like to keep it.

What is an acceptable amount of time between shots as this is only my second APA season? The first two games of the night took 27 minutes....keep in mind that it took several minutes for the balls to be racked each time. There were only two innings the first game, but the balls were tied up. Game two was a runout from the break.

So what is a reasonable amount of time for both a shot and a timeout. Keep in mind there were also people on the next table, which interfered with the game to some degree as well. However the guy I was playing saw it fit to complain to the league director. I was averaging about a minute for most shots, maybe a little more.

Given I'm aware I was playing slow, but it wasn't intentionally slow. I just took my time and played every shot as best I could, which ended up working out well. Afterwards the guy descided he needed to "talk with me" (obviously quite intoxicated at this point) to inform me that I was doing this on purpose to **** with him and that I didn't need to use tactics like that to win. More than anything I was just annoyed by this guy (an apa 6).

So was my play out of line or is this guy just crying? I'm not going to be upset either way I would just like a definitive answer on how fast I am expected to play.
 
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If you ever go to Vegas for APA National for either singles or teams, they state the average shot should be around 20 seconds. In some cases it may take longer if there is a tough shot, but on average it should be about 20 sec. The APA manual states that a coaching time out should last no longer than one minute. In our area this is used more as a guideline, since as in the original shot, some situations are tougher than others and there could be a lot of info to impart to the person being coached if the shot is particularly difficult. We try to keep it under the 1 min, but at times it can be 2-3.
 
In HLT's (Higher Level Tournaments) shots should be :20 and :45, however you are only allowed one :45 second per rack. Timeouts are 1:00.
 
maxeypad2007 said:
After the last couple of weeks of APA I think the name should be changed from 8-ball to the crying game. He was in the chair for quite some time, which is the way I like to keep it.

What is an acceptable amount of time between shots as this is only my second APA season? The first two games of the night took 27 minutes....keep in mind that it took several minutes for the balls to be racked each time. There were only two innings the first game, but the balls were tied up. Game two was a runout from the break.

So what is a reasonable amount of time for both a shot and a timeout. Keep in mind there were also people on the next table, which interfered with the game to some degree as well. However the guy I was playing saw it fit to complain to the league director. I was averaging about a minute for most shots, maybe a little more.

Given I'm aware I was playing slow, but it wasn't intentionally slow. I just took my time and played every shot as best I could, which ended up working out well. Afterwards the guy descided he needed to "talk with me" (obviously quite intoxicated at this point) to inform me that I was doing this on purpose to **** with him and that I didn't need to use tactics like that to win. More than anything I was just annoyed by this guy (an apa 6).

So was my play out of line or is this guy just crying? I'm not going to be upset either way I would just like a definitive answer on how fast I am expected to play.
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I wouldn't cry about it, or even complain (unless it seemed clear that you were doing it on purpose), but that seems ridiculously long to me. I would probably say something to your captain along the lines of, "The league suggest an average of 20 seconds per shot, and 45 seconds for more difficult situations. After the match is over, can you tell Max E. to speed up a bit?"

Try thinking about how you will handle difficult clusters and balls while your opponent is shooting. Then you won't need as much time when it's your turn.

Once your run starts, the only way I can see needing 1 minute/shot is if you're getting out of line on every shot. But if you are getting out of line every shot, then the extra time you're taking isn't really helping, so there's not really any point and you may as well pick up the pace.

Cory
 
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I think bringing a slow player complaint to the League Operator is the proper way to handle this situation. I had played a guy who took a very long time figuring out shots and I brought it to the opposing teams attention is a formal curtious manner and they all got pissed at me. Anyways, I told myself if this happens again in the future I will just bring it to the attention of the LO.

As for your speed of play, I think 1 minutes is a long time for a shot.
 
Thanks for the info.

I guess I usually expect less complaining from the higher level players. There were a lot of tough shots (table length banks etc). 20 seconds per shot is kind of short in my opinion if you actually time it from the time the ball stops moving to the ball beginning to move again.
 
Also the fact that there were other league matches going on tables on three sides of our table made it a little more difficult.

I definitely wasn't doing it on purpose. In retrospect the post game discussion the guy brought up was pretty rude in m opinion.
 
maxeypad2007 said:
Also the fact that there were other league matches going on tables on three sides of our table made it a little more difficult.

I definitely wasn't doing it on purpose. In retrospect the post game discussion the guy brought up was pretty rude in m opinion.
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May I ask what your APA skill level is?
 
If all ten shooters took one minute per shot, league night would end, on average, at 2:45AM.

This should be your answer.

And no you SL should not matter.
 
I'm a six right now and I may be a 7 after last night (I won by a good margin). The same goes the last couple of weeks before as well.
 
The APA Team Manual allows 2 hours time before splitting tables is recoommended (to begin the 5th match)

2 hours / 4 matches = 30 min per match

In my experience, matches usually take 15-20 innings

30 min / 20 innings / 2 players = 45 seconds

I would have to guess 45 seconds per shot on average would be on the higher end, toward excessive.


However the APA Team Manual also allows 15 min per player from the time he/she is called until his/her play must begin.

2 hours - (4 x 15 minutes) = 1 hour

1 hour / 4 matches = 15 minutes per match

15 minutes per match / 20 innings / 2 players = appx. 20 seconds (22.5)


Therefore 20 seconds should be the expected AVERAGE per your half of the inning. Or this is what I would assume.

...Man I should probably be fired for wasting this much time at work...
 
maxeypad2007 said:
.....
The first two games of the night took 27 minutes....keep in mind that it took several minutes for the balls to be racked each time. There were only two innings the first game, but the balls were tied up. Game two was a runout from the break.
......
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This is too slow. Two racks in two innings took 27 minutes? I would say something, too. Hopefully more tactfully than your opponent did.
 
Gregg said:
If all ten shooters took one minute per shot, league night would end, on average, at 2:45AM.
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Agreed.

Last night my team had a total of 78 innings. This means 156 minutes for each player to shoot if they inly took one shot per inning and a 1 minute time limit.

My match I won 5-3(two 6 hc), so a minimum of 64 balls(shots) plus balls off the table for the loser of each game (average usually 5) making 104 balls off the table, plus we had a total of 18 innings, so we each missed or defensed 18 shots, making the total 140. So our one match would have lasted 140 minutes if we were taking 1 minute per shot. A 2 hour 20 minute match for 8 games between 2 good players? That would be rediculous. The match actually lasted about 40 minutes.

Gregg said:
And no you SL should not matter.
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Yes and no. A better player should be able to make better decisions about each shot, but not necessarily quicker decisions. The difference between a 2 and a 7 is not how long it takes them to shoot each shot, but the accuracy and decision making behind each shot. In most cases the 2 will decide on the shot in close to the same timeframe as the 7, but they will miss the shot more often, or more notably play the wrong shot and not get a leave on their next ball, resulting in more innings, but the same approximate shot time.
 
soulcatcher said:
Yes and no. A better player should be able to make better decisions about each shot, but not necessarily quicker decisions. The difference between a 2 and a 7 is not how long it takes them to shoot each shot, but the accuracy and decision making behind each shot. In most cases the 2 will decide on the shot in close to the same timeframe as the 7, but they will miss the shot more often, or more notably play the wrong shot and not get a leave on their next ball, resulting in more innings, but the same approximate shot time.
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I wasn't just talking about the amount of time it takes to line up your shot and shoot but also the amount of time it takes to decide which shot to choose. In my exp with APA the higher Skill Level players tend to know which shot to shoot sometimes before the cue ball even stops. Or are able to see the best shot to more quickly than a SL2.
 
jongreve said:
However the APA Team Manual also allows 15 min per player from the time he/she is called until his/her play must begin.
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not in my area, that rule only apllies to actual start time if one team does not have a shooter there at 7:30 to start. there is a 15 minute grace period in which if no one shows the whole match is a forfeit. i have had this happen a few times and if the LO is called, he suggests to wait until 8. once play starts, it must be continuous...2 minutes between matches.
 
TheNewSharkster said:
Yes it should. New players need longer to analyze the shot then someone who is experienced.
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Regardless of SL, some people take longer to set up their shots than others. This is the case on the Pro tour as well as APA league night.

One minute between shots is one minute.

Not the case here in this thread, and no offense, as I'm no gift to the pool playing community or APA, but there is little in life more painful watching a low SL shooter take excessively long time outs and time in between shots just to make a mess of the most basic of shots or position. It gets old - fast.

I, too, was an APA SL2, and took too long, and was asked to speed up my game. I did.

In my area, people are very generous when it comes to allowing someone time to in between shots and timeouts. I've seen timeouts run three minutes without anybody saying peep.

People want to have fun and enjoy the night, for the most part.
 
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Gregg said:
Regardless of SL, some people take longer to set up their shots than others. This is the case on the Pro tour as well as APA league night.
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I agree but it seems a lot more common for a lower skill level to take longer on a shot. I am less sympathetic to a high skill level player who takes a long time between shots.
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"Several minutes" to rack the balls each time?

Why was this?

If anything, THAT'S slow play...
 
TheNewSharkster said:
I wasn't just talking about the amount of time it takes to line up your shot and shoot but also the amount of time it takes to decide which shot to choose. In my exp with APA the higher Skill Level players tend to know which shot to shoot sometimes before the cue ball even stops. Or are able to see the best shot to more quickly than a SL2.
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I don't think 2's have much ability to see the right shot. I commonly see them take several minutes, in anguish, trying to come up with something and then shoot something worse than the most obvious shot. Some just take a long time because they've been told to improve their shot selection and want to look like they're trying.

For a real 2 and even many 3s, their instructions should be: (1) just keep shooting balls in until they get a timeout telling them not to, (2) if there is not a makable shot then break out any tied up balls, or (3) as a last resort, play a safety.

Safeties are a last resort because I find that 2s and 3s don't play them that well and don't accomplish much with BIH other than to clear a few balls out of the way. Better to break out balls so they have a chance to win by making 1-3 balls per inning.

The sensibility of (1) to (3) can change later in the game, but that's what the timeouts are for.

Cory
 
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