arnot's T3 shaft or annie o's E-shaft

[diablo]

hi all!

i like to know and get comments and inputs from you guys! if any one of you own or have played with for a time with both of these shafts, pls. send comments regarding playability and hit (stiff or a little whip)or has anyone experience any truth to what annie o is claiming as advertised that the E shaft is zero deflection. i know this is not a post to start a war of the shafts but i want to compare both from experiences which is reliable and true to what they say in their respective websites. are they worth the bang for the bucks. i am looking for a shaft for a new custom cue and pls. send comments on how these are compared to the 314, hybrid pro by mezz, or the tiger x shafts. thanks!

 

[Penrose Cues]

hi all!

i like to know and get comments and inputs from you guys! if any one of you own or have played with for a time with both of these shafts, pls. send comments regarding playability and hit (stiff or a little whip)or has anyone experience any truth to what annie o is claiming as advertised that the E shaft is zero deflection. i know this is not a post to start a war of the shafts but i want to compare both from experiences which is reliable and true to what they say in their respective websites. are they worth the bang for the bucks. i am looking for a shaft for a new custom cue and pls. send comments on how these are compared to the 314, hybrid pro by mezz, or the tiger x shafts. thanks!

The word "deflection" has been interpreted the wrong way since day one Predator started to use it...

Deflection is the action of the shaft after it collides with the cue ball. So, what does the SHAFT do after the ball is hit. Simple physics will show you that an object wich is propulsed on a round object will bounce of towards the opposite of it's conus.

In other words, a ball is round, the wood of the shaft will bounce off the ball towards the outside of the center of the ball. If you give left side spin, the shaft will deflect to the left. You give right side spin, it will go to the right... That's deflection. Thanks to the deflection, the wood becomes sort of elastic and gives and extra amount of energie to the ball.

Every shaft in the world has deflection !

What people actually mean with deflection is "cue ball action". What is the cue ball doing after the impact?

Simple physics will proove that the cue ball reacts in the opposite way of the shaft. If you give left spin, the ball will first bounce to the right and then forwards...

This all sounds complicated, but take the example of a car accident:
Car #1 comes from the west and car #2 didn't see the first car.
When car #2 hits car #1 with high speed on the front side, car #2 will be bouncing to the right and car #1 to the left....
The opposite happens when the impact happens on the rear of car #1...

If the cars have 0 deflection, the energy of the impact is stopped right away and car #2 will go straight thrue car #1.
The same for cues and balls...

No deflection, no energy...

Whatever shaft you pick, just get used to it. Ask Earl Strickland to play with any shaft or any cue and he will run 5 racks or more after having tested the shaft for 30 minutes. It's all in the mind...

Tom Penrose

 

[Shorty]

The big difference between all these shafts is one thing...weight. Arnot's and Annie's are both flat laminates I do believe, and they will weigh more than the Tiger or Predator. Having shot with an Arnot for over five years, I was ready for a change, and I went with a Predator. Nothing wrong with the Arnot shaft, but the flat laminates I don't think give as consistant a hit as do the Predator and Tiger style of shaft. With the pie style of laminate, you don't have to worry as much with how your shaft is turned in order to get a consistant hit. I was also contemplating an AnnieO shaft for my Schon, but I just am too used to and hit the balls too well with my Predator to change at this point in time. It ain't broke, don't go fixing it.

My recommendation...find someone that has one of each and hit a ball with it and see how you like it. I bet you will either go Predator or just stick with a custom cuemaker's shaft...meaning one piece wood.

Thanks,
Shorty

 

[9baller]

I own the E shaft and I love it. The claim is that it is almost zero deflection because NO shaft can have totally zero deflection. I tested the shaft's deflection by placing two balls on the far rail 1 and 1/2 ball lengths apart and shooting between them with the most english I could to see if the deflection would cause me to hit the ball, and after trying this several times I never hit it. I dont have to worry about deflection for MOST of my shots, but now I am trying to keep the cue level to cancel any curve. IMO there is absolutely nothing wrong with flat lam shafts and I would recomend the E-shaft to anyone. I have not tried the predator and I probly never will now that I have my E shaft. I don't now how to describe the hit but it is absolutely perfect for me. I hope this helps, just my .02.

 

[DaveK]

The word "deflection" has been interpreted the wrong way since day one Predator started to use it...

Deflection is the action of the shaft after it collides with the cue ball. So, what does the SHAFT do after the ball is hit. Simple physics will show you that an object wich is propulsed on a round object will bounce of towards the opposite of it's conus.

In other words, a ball is round, the wood of the shaft will bounce off the ball towards the outside of the center of the ball. If you give left side spin, the shaft will deflect to the left. You give right side spin, it will go to the right... That's deflection. Thanks to the deflection, the wood becomes sort of elastic and gives and extra amount of energie to the ball.

Tom, I have a couple of questions about your post. First, what the heck is a conus ? Surely you did not mean to refer to a giant snail.

Second, you claim that deflection adds energy to the ball. There are two kinds of energy that can be applied to a ball, linear motion and spin. A dead center hit will apply only linear motion, no spin energy will be transfered to the cb from the cues energy. An off center hit will apply both linear motion and spin. In your claim, which kind of energy gets the 'extra energy' thanks to deflection ? Greater ball velocity or greater ball speed or both ? Also, is the extra energy added due to deflection proporational to the amount of deflection ? In other words, does a cue that has greater deflection (a 'whippy' shaft) add more energy than one with a lower deflection shaft ?

Dave

 

[Penrose Cues]

Tom, I have a couple of questions about your post. First, what the heck is a conus ? Surely you did not mean to refer to a giant snail.

Second, you claim that deflection adds energy to the ball. There are two kinds of energy that can be applied to a ball, linear motion and spin. A dead center hit will apply only linear motion, no spin energy will be transfered to the cb from the cues energy. An off center hit will apply both linear motion and spin. In your claim, which kind of energy gets the 'extra energy' thanks to deflection ? Greater ball velocity or greater ball speed or both ? Also, is the extra energy added due to deflection proporational to the amount of deflection ? In other words, does a cue that has greater deflection (a 'whippy' shaft) add more energy than one with a lower deflection shaft ?

Dave

Dave,

The conus is the shape of an object seen from the center of that object. In this case, we're talking about a perfect ball. So each point on a ball is evenly distant from the center of the object.

There are three types of energy you can give to a pool ball: the two you already menioned ( you call it spin, I call it centrifugal force) and the velocity wich is produced by two "elastic" objects (cue and ball).
This energy can be seen as an extra throw of the ball;

The ideal example to compare it with, is a tennis ball hit by a racket. The ball gets an extra amount of energy because the ball deforms and the snares of the racket extend. When the ball leaves the surface of the racket, it takes its original shape and the snares get tension again. That allows the ball to be propulsed with more speed than it would if you would hit the ball with a board of wood. Try it....

Because this happens in pool aswell, you can make the conclusion that a balance between stiffness and elasticity is difficult to judge as every player strikes the ball in a different way...

I attached these RSB's to give an impression. Both shots are same speed and same amount of side. The balls are aimed at the middle diamond with level cue. The first shows the path of a stiff shaft and the second of a whippy shaft :

START(
%Pp2O9%Qn8Q3%RY1R0%SB9N6%UD3P6%V[0Q6%eC3a4%b\1Q8%cl8Q1%do6P4

)END

You see that at point A, the ball is bounced to the left, B is the almost neglectible curve and c is the point the ball touches the rail.

START(
%Pp2O9%Qn8Q3%RY1R0%SB9N6%UD4P0%VX1Q5%eC3a4%bY4Q8%cj8Q8%do6P4

)END

You see that the cue ball is bounced much more with a whippy shaft and the curve obtained by the amount of side is much bigger because more energy is transferred to the ball.

So, it's just what you're used to, but every shot is makeable when the shot is correctly judged.

Tom Penrose

 

[Egg McDogit]

fwiw I *heard* that they play like meucci black dots. I like my 314 and I also hear good things about the tiger x shaft - but that it doesn't really cut down on deflection

hi all!

i like to know and get comments and inputs from you guys! if any one of you own or have played with for a time with both of these shafts, pls. send comments regarding playability and hit (stiff or a little whip)or has anyone experience any truth to what annie o is claiming as advertised that the E shaft is zero deflection. i know this is not a post to start a war of the shafts but i want to compare both from experiences which is reliable and true to what they say in their respective websites. are they worth the bang for the bucks. i am looking for a shaft for a new custom cue and pls. send comments on how these are compared to the 314, hybrid pro by mezz, or the tiger x shafts. thanks!

 

[Annie O]

The word "deflection" has been interpreted the wrong way since day one Predator started to use it...

Deflection is the action of the shaft after it collides with the cue ball. So, what does the SHAFT do after the ball is hit. Simple physics will show you that an object wich is propulsed on a round object will bounce of towards the opposite of it's conus.

In other words, a ball is round, the wood of the shaft will bounce off the ball towards the outside of the center of the ball. If you give left side spin, the shaft will deflect to the left. You give right side spin, it will go to the right... That's deflection. Thanks to the deflection, the wood becomes sort of elastic and gives and extra amount of energie to the ball.

Every shaft in the world has deflection !

What people actually mean with deflection is "cue ball action". What is the cue ball doing after the impact?

Simple physics will proove that the cue ball reacts in the opposite way of the shaft. If you give left spin, the ball will first bounce to the right and then forwards...

This all sounds complicated, but take the example of a car accident:
Car #1 comes from the west and car #2 didn't see the first car.
When car #2 hits car #1 with high speed on the front side, car #2 will be bouncing to the right and car #1 to the left....
The opposite happens when the impact happens on the rear of car #1...

If the cars have 0 deflection, the energy of the impact is stopped right away and car #2 will go straight thrue car #1.
The same for cues and balls...

No deflection, no energy...

Whatever shaft you pick, just get used to it. Ask Earl Strickland to play with any shaft or any cue and he will run 5 racks or more after having tested the shaft for 30 minutes. It's all in the mind...

Tom Penrose

Tom has this mostly correct. I do not agree that the car analogy fits here because neither vehicle represents the shaft of a cue, and neither of them are spheres. However - his statement that "Every shaft in the world has deflection !" is correct.

Most people will consider two kinds of movement to be important. Deflection - this is what the shaft does during impact with the cueball, and squirt - this is what the cueball does after impact by the tip. The correct statement about my shaft would be, “there is almost Zero Squirt of the cueball”. Since most players are not familiar with the term ‘squirt’, most of my competitors use the term ‘Deflection’ to describe the shaft properties rather than using in depth language to describe squirt. I also use the term deflection. I know this muddies the water.

The trick in making shafts is to build into the shaft the proper amount and direction of deflection to reduce cueball squirt. Generally, people who experience my shaft claim that the shaft is “stiff”. However, if a shaft does not have elasticity, or does not flex/deflect, there would be a tremendous amount of cueball squirt (depending on the velocity of the stroke). The greater the speed, the greater the amount of squirt.

The E-Shaft reduces cueball squirt to almost nothing at all but maximum stroke velocity by deflecting away from the cueball. This action allows the cueball to stay on the line of aim instead of squirting away from the shaft.

I hope this helps.

 

[hustlefinger]

Simple physics will proove that the cue ball reacts in the opposite way of the shaft. If you give left spin, the ball will first bounce to the right and then forwards...
Tom Penrose

This is defined as squirt. And then the 'ball' will swerve in.

Don't know if you've seen this page or not, but here is a link to some commonly used definitions.
http://www.sfbilliards.com/faq.html

Rick